Abortion

[Popeye]

you still can't make the decision for those 97% of women. it's not up to you.

You're right bewitched. Men have been trying to control women's bodies since the beginning of the human race.

The abortion debate is just another example. The so called pro lifers try to shroud their controlling efforts in dubious science or religion. It's still the same old thing.

 

[palerider]

I would personally disagree with this statement. Do you have a link to the cases you're referencing? I'd be interested to read them.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or dissagree. We don't own our bodies and there is ample legal precedent to prove it.

Here is a source from Cambridge with regard to the subject in the UK

http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521687324&ss=exc

Clip:

"Most people are surprised and somewhat shocked when they learn that Moore apparently did not ‘own’ his body. Legal doctrines under both civil and common law systems have left us with something of a vacuum. In fact, we do not own our bodies in law: they are not the subject of property rights in any conventional sense, although traditionally they have been shielded to some extent by what James W. Harris calls ‘protected non-property holdings’."


And for references in US law:

http://onthecommons.org/node/1010

The fact is that US courts have found that you do not have any property interest in your body. You can't be a thing and own a thing at the same time.

 

[palerider]

You're right bewitched. Men have been trying to control women's bodies since the beginning of the human race.

Still don't get it do you? Why am I not surprised. Making a thing against the law is not to decide for you whether or not you do a thing. I don't get to decide for you whether or not you will kill your neighbor today, or go out and rob a store, or even drive through a school zone at 80 mph. You get to make all of those decisions for yourself. I have to be satisified with the knowledge that if you decide to do any of those things and get caught, we have a mechanism in place with which to punish you for your decision.

The abortion debate is just another example. The so called pro lifers try to shroud their controlling efforts in dubious science or religion. It's still the same old thing.

Here, you are just a blatant liar. "Dubious sience" is that what you call science that states flatly that you are wrong? I have challenged you repeatedly to provide some credible science that supports your position and you have provided exactly squat. Contrary to what you say, any reference you have made to science has been dubious because you have failed to corroborate any of it. Every reference to science that I have made has been referenced to credible scientific sources.

Dubious science? This is a new low for you. And check back through the thread. It is the pro choice side of the argument who feels the need to bring religion into the discussion.

 

[top gun]

One could make the same argument for what you are carrying: does it have any rights? or no rights? or some rights only after a certain point?

I'm not really getting back into this argument. I'm giving the legal system more time to work and checking back after the election in November. I just wanted everyone to know we were back from the Bahamas...

But since I stopped by to check in I'd say if either party can leave the other alone and survive on their own... they obviously should have the right to do so. If not the one that can should be allowed to do the same... as they are allowed to do as we speak.

My brother is a person. If he needed a bone marrow transplant to survive and I was the only match in the world that could save him. Doesn't mean I have to do it does it. I have the right to walk away.

 

[palerider]

My brother is a person. If he needed a bone marrow transplant to survive and I was the only match in the world that could save him. Doesn't mean I have to do it does it. I have the right to walk away.

If your brother needed a transpland and you didn't give him what you need, the cancer is still what would kill him, not you. There is a difference between letting nature take its course and deliberately setting out to kill a healthy human being.

Your logic fails at every turn. Why do you keep coming back to be further humiliated?

 

[bewitched]

If your brother needed a transpland and you didn't give him what you need, the cancer is still what would kill him, not you. There is a difference between letting nature take its course and deliberately setting out to kill a healthy human being.

Your logic fails at every turn. Why do you keep coming back to be further humiliated?

apparently you don't understand the meaning of life.

 

[top gun]

apparently you don't understand the meaning of life.

I'm like you... I agree with the long standing Supreme Court decision. Unfortunately there are those who only consider the word "life" in the context of an abortion. As I'm sure you can obviously see it has nothing to do with what kills something or let's something die (it's just as dead) and everything to do with... one individual that is surviving just fine on their own cannot/should not be forced to ante up their own personal body and pain so someone or something else can survive.

Your father is a person. If your father needs a kidney and you're a perfect match and you can do just fine with one kidney do you HAVE to donate your body so he can survive. Of course not.

It's not really hard to understand. Personally or medically if someone needs your body to survive you are not legally obligated to have to provide it. As it should be. Take care...

 

[numinus]

I'm not really getting back into this argument. I'm giving the legal system more time to work and checking back after the election in November. I just wanted everyone to know we were back from the Bahamas...

But since I stopped by to check in I'd say if either party can leave the other alone and survive on their own... they obviously should have the right to do so. If not the one that can should be allowed to do the same... as they are allowed to do as we speak.

My brother is a person. If he needed a bone marrow transplant to survive and I was the only match in the world that could save him. Doesn't mean I have to do it does it. I have the right to walk away.

Make no mistake -- a sin of omission makes one as guilty as a sin of commission.

The reason you are not liable in this particular legal system for such a blatant SIN OF OMISSION stems from the difference in premise between the hobbsian and lockean social contract.

Hobbes starts from the premise that human nature is inherently brutish thus it is within the responsibility of the state to compel its citizens to behave humanely. Locke starts from the opposite premise thus making such a choice a matter of individual conscience.

The nature of your freedom in this type of polity works only IF you have a healthy, fully functional CONSCIENCE.

 

[palerider]

apparently you don't understand the meaning of life.

Tell me oh great gypsy, tell me oh great necromancer. What is the meaning of life?

I understand what life is but I eagerly await your elucidation on the meaning of life.

 

[Coyote]

Tell me oh great gypsy, tell me oh great necromancer. What is the meaning of life?

I understand what life is but I eagerly await your elucidation on the meaning of life.

Didn't Monty Python make a movie about that....?

 

[9sublime]

One of the best movies ever if I may say so.

 

[palerider]

One of the best movies ever if I may say so.

I love everything Monty Python.

In fact, my favorite beer is Monty Python Holy Grail Ale. It's cured over burning witches you know.

 

[Coyote]

I love everything Monty Python.

In fact, my favorite beer is Monty Python Holy Grail Ale. It's cured over burning witches you know.

LOL...Monty Python Rocks!

I knew there must be some reason I liked you


Holy Grail Ale eh?

 

[Coyote]

One of the best movies ever if I may say so.

My fave was always the first - The Holy Grail....gotta love the french insults and that killer bunny

 

[palerider]

Holy Grail Ale eh?

Yeah, it isn't too easy to find and it isn't cheap, but it goes over great at small gatherings where the people are familiar with and have an appreciation of Monty Python.

In this area, about the only place that keeps a regular supply is a burger place called Fat Daddy's and a wine superstore called Total Wine. About $5 a bottle but it is almost a 20 oz bottle.