Abortion

[palerider]

no, that's the whole point, a fetus has no rights because it's at that point a part of a woman's body.

It is never a part of its mother's body from the time fertilization is complete. It is dependent, but not a part of her body. Every argument you make is based on a falsehood. Where do you get this crap? It certainly doesn't come from any credible source? Do you just make it up in an attempt to make your point?

name the risks of pregnancy. include murder, financial failure, homelessness, birth defects, and others.

Again with the lies. I asked you to provide some evidence that pregnant women are more likely to be murdered than the general population. Clearly, you aren't going to provide any evidence so I took the time to look it up myself. The murder rate for pregnant women is about 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate for the general population is about 5.6 per 100,000. So a woman's chances of being murdered drop by over half if she is pregnant. Your whole "murder" line of thought is specious.

Birth defects and risk to her own health amount to about 3% of all abortions so that line of logic is faulty as well. Almost 97% of all abortions are for reasons that amount to convenience.

And tell me bewitched, how many other situations in which one might encounter financial problems do you advocate killing another human being in an effort to avoid the potential problems?

 

[Coyote]

And your "women are slaves" argument is just more of the mindless drivel that you seem to spew without end.

Errr....(cough) you mean like your argument that pregnancy and childbirth is nothing more than an "inconvenience"?

 

[Coyote]

The murder rate for pregnant women is about 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate for the general population is about 5.6 per 100,000.

I never heard the argument made that pregnant women are more or less likely to be murdered before. Pregnancy has been correlated with abuse in cases where it is not wanted.

What I wonder though is this - in your statistics you say the general murder rate is 5.6. If the murder rate for pregnant women is 2.3...that is almost half of all murders then and given the number of pregnant people in the population (which is what?) - that sounds like an awfully high number of pregnant people murderered.

 

[bewitched]

It is never a part of its mother's body from the time fertilization is complete. It is dependent, but not a part of her body. Every argument you make is based on a falsehood. Where do you get this crap? It certainly doesn't come from any credible source? Do you just make it up in an attempt to make your point?



Again with the lies. I asked you to provide some evidence that pregnant women are more likely to be murdered than the general population. Clearly, you aren't going to provide any evidence so I took the time to look it up myself. The murder rate for pregnant women is about 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate for the general population is about 5.6 per 100,000. So a woman's chances of being murdered drop by over half if she is pregnant. Your whole "murder" line of thought is specious.

Birth defects and risk to her own health amount to about 3% of all abortions so that line of logic is faulty as well. Almost 97% of all abortions are for reasons that amount to convenience.

And tell me bewitched, how many other situations in which one might encounter financial problems do you advocate killing another human being in an effort to avoid the potential problems?

my body, my fetus. you can't have it.
well actually I don't want another kid so you can have it if the opportunity were to arise.

97% are not for convenience. you don't know 97% of the women who have abortions.

 

[bewitched]

I never heard the argument made that pregnant women are more or less likely to be murdered before. Pregnancy has been correlated with abuse in cases where it is not wanted.

What I wonder though is this - in your statistics you say the general murder rate is 5.6. If the murder rate for pregnant women is 2.3...that is almost half of all murders then and given the number of pregnant people in the population (which is what?) - that sounds like an awfully high number of pregnant people murderered.

Lacy Peterson and Stacy Peterson are the perfect examples.
the father suddenly decides that a baby is going to be inconvenient to his lifestyle and kills an 8 month pregnant wife.
these 2 women didn't expect it, there are many others that sense it and choose to abort to save their lives. so stats don't really mean much in real life.

 

[palerider]

I never heard the argument made that pregnant women are more or less likely to be murdered before. Pregnancy has been correlated with abuse in cases where it is not wanted.

What I wonder though is this - in your statistics you say the general murder rate is 5.6. If the murder rate for pregnant women is 2.3...that is almost half of all murders then and given the number of pregnant people in the population (which is what?) - that sounds like an awfully high number of pregnant people murderered.

I did a bit more looking and according to the washington post (liberal enough?) there are about 100 documented cases of pregnant women being killed every year in the US. But the CDC says that nearly 4 million women have children every year. 1 out of every 40,000 doesn't amount to anything like an epidemic of violence against pregnant women. Further, the post acknowledges that of those 100 per year, at least 30% have nothing to do with the pregnancy but are the result of drug dealing, robberies, stray gunfire (bad neighborhoods) and any of the other million or so reasons that we kill each other.

The thing is that bewitched's attempt to suggest that the fact that pregnant women get murdered is a valid reason to kill another human being.

 

[Coyote]

I did a bit more looking and according to the washington post (liberal enough?) there are about 100 documented cases of pregnant women being killed every year in the US. But the CDC says that nearly 4 million women have children every year. 1 out of every 40,000 doesn't amount to anything like an epidemic of violence against pregnant women. Further, the post acknowledges that of those 100 per year, at least 30% have nothing to do with the pregnancy but are the result of drug dealing, robberies, stray gunfire (bad neighborhoods) and any of the other million or so reasons that we kill each other.

The thing is that bewitched's attempt to suggest that the fact that pregnant women get murdered is a valid reason to kill another human being.

Well, pregnancy can be a cause for violence, I can speak to the truth of that. But I wanted to get a better sense of the statistics here. Thank you.

 

[palerider]

my body, my fetus. you can't have it.
well actually I don't want another kid so you can have it if the opportunity were to arise.

I am sure that you didn't know this (you seem to know very little) but you don't own your body. No one owns your body. You can not own a thing and be that thing at the same time and there is ample legal precedent in the US courts to prove beyond doubt that you don't own your body.

And you believe that you can own another human being? Unborn children are human beings and in this country you most certainly can not own them. This is part of what makes roe v wade unconstitutional.

97% are not for convenience. you don't know 97% of the women who have abortions.

Almost 3% of abortions are due to maternal health problems and serious medical problems with the child and another .5% are due to rape or incest. That leaves 97%. Name a situation in which the mother's life or long term health is not in danger that does not amount to convenience.

 

[palerider]

Lacy Peterson and Stacy Peterson are the perfect examples.
the father suddenly decides that a baby is going to be inconvenient to his lifestyle and kills an 8 month pregnant wife.
these 2 women didn't expect it, there are many others that sense it and choose to abort to save their lives. so stats don't really mean much in real life.

A couple of anecdotes do not an argument make. Now name off a couple of thousand more and you will begin to have an argument. 40 million women had children that year and you can name one and you believe that represents a "perfect" example? If you weren't so tragic, you would be funny.

 

[palerider]

Well, pregnancy can be a cause for violence, I can speak to the truth of that. But I wanted to get a better sense of the statistics here. Thank you.

It seems that anything can be a cause for violence. Not getting pregnant could be as likely a cause as getting pregnant. The rate at which violence occurs against pregnant women, however, is not justification for keeping abortion on demand legal. That was my only point. When you compare the 70 or so women who are murdered because they are pregnant against the 700,000 or so children who are killed for reasons that amount to no more than convenience the whole violence against women argument begins to look pretty puny.

 

[bewitched]

That leaves 97%. Name a situation in which the mother's life or long term health is not in danger that does not amount to convenience.

you still can't make the decision for those 97% of women. it's not up to you.

 

[bewitched]

The thing is that bewitched's attempt to suggest that the fact that pregnant women get murdered is a valid reason to kill another human being.

wrong assumption and out of context.

the point is that pregnant women have reasons for aborting, they know who they mated with is capable of murdering them. it's an instinct that women have and the ability to abort can save their lives. no one else can determine her safety.

 

[palerider]

wrong assumption and out of context.

the point is that pregnant women have reasons for aborting, they know who they mated with is capable of murdering them. it's an instinct that women have and the ability to abort can save their lives. no one else can determine her safety.

Your whole murder sphiel is nothing but a load of crap. The fact is that pregnant women are less likely to be murdered than the general population suggesting that being pregnant is protection from murder more than an inviataion to murder. Get a real argument or get lost.

 

[palerider]

you still can't make the decision for those 97% of women. it's not up to you.

They are killing for convenience and someone simply must oppose such a barbarous practice. The practice of abortion makes the institution of slavery seem like summer camp.

 

[vyo476]

I am sure that you didn't know this (you seem to know very little) but you don't own your body. No one owns your body. You can not own a thing and be that thing at the same time and there is ample legal precedent in the US courts to prove beyond doubt that you don't own your body.

I would personally disagree with this statement. Do you have a link to the cases you're referencing? I'd be interested to read them.