yeah but the goat thing seems to have been some priest's idea as opposed to something divine. maybe a little like how RCC priests could look the other way for a certain sum of money (forget the term).
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What is the Trinity?
- Thread starter Aus22
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yeah but the goat thing seems to have been some priest's idea as opposed to something divine. maybe a little like how RCC priests could look the other way for a certain sum of money (forget the term).
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Pandora
Well-Known Member
No, this was not a priest’s idea. Read from Leviticus it was the Lord telling Moses to instruct Aaron on how to do it and why to do it.
Leviticus 16
New International Version (NIV)
The Day of Atonement
16 The Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron who died when they approached the Lord. 2 The Lord said to Moses: “Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.
3 “This is how Aaron is to enter the Most Holy Place: He must first bring a young bull for a sin offering[a] and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He is to put on the sacred linen tunic, with linen undergarments next to his body; he is to tie the linen sash around him and put on the linen turban. These are sacred garments; so he must bathe himself with water before he puts them on. 5 From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.
6 “Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat.[b] 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.
11 “Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. 13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die. 14 He is to take some of the bull’s blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.
15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.
18 “Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.
20 “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
23 “Then Aaron is to go into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. 24 He shall bathe himself with water in the sanctuary area and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.
26 “The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.
29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves[c] and not do any work —whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community.
34 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”
And it was done, as the Lord commanded Moses.
OK way more than just booting a goat our to the boondocks and an annual event too.
but I get the similarities you see.
I suppose you've seen this John 10 22-30, seems clear to me.
Pandora
Well-Known Member
The sacrifices done in the OT are important. There was a way to know if God accepted the sacrifice or not. There was a crimson strip / cord that would turn white if the sacrifice was accepted by God. The strip / cord ALWAYS turned white until after the death/resurrection of Jesus. It stopped turning after that and never turned again till the temple was destroyed and no more sacrifices were done.
I found a page that explains a lot of it and gives you some bible vs. to reference to. But this animal sacrifice was a temporary way to cover our sins till the permanent solution could come.
Something I really like is that it’s documented in the Talmud about the miracle of the cord not turning from crimson to white every year for 40 years till the temple was destroyed. It was against their interests to document that when they were insisting Jesus was not the Messiah and could not cover our sins yet they did it.
http://www.3dbibleproject.com/en/temple/details/evidence.htm
I found a page that explains a lot of it and gives you some bible vs. to reference to. But this animal sacrifice was a temporary way to cover our sins till the permanent solution could come.
Something I really like is that it’s documented in the Talmud about the miracle of the cord not turning from crimson to white every year for 40 years till the temple was destroyed. It was against their interests to document that when they were insisting Jesus was not the Messiah and could not cover our sins yet they did it.
http://www.3dbibleproject.com/en/temple/details/evidence.htm
Oh I did not mean to suggest that sacrifice ritual was other than important, sorry if that was the impression left. thx for this interesting material. I should probably pay more attention to the OT.
Pandora
Well-Known Member
I love that vs. It is one of my most favorite vs.
Here is another vs. from John 10
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
Notice in the vs. you posted he never claimed to be God but the messiah and in the vs. I quoted he clearly claims to be the son of God. True he says in your vs. that he and the father are one. You and I are one too when talking about the facts on if Obama is a good president or not J and in my vs. he says that the father is in him and he is in the father. I Think that’s a very fair statement for the son of any man to say about him. Here is another vs. from John that brings up both those vs but brings you and me into the mix.
John
New International Version (NIV)
John 17. 20 – 26
20 ‘I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word,21that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,* so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one,23I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.24Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
25 ‘Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me.26I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.’
If I agree that the end of your vs. means Jesus is God because he and the Father are one, then I must also say you are God and I am God because this later John passage brings us into it.
Since I know that I am not God and neither are you, the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with is they are talking about being one in purpose. If you and I both owned a motel and we had a rule no pets then someone tried to bring a dog on your shift and you said no pets. If they demanded to talk to the owner you could say the other owner and I are one on this and we say no pets. But that wouldn’t mean you are me or I am you just that we are one when it comes to these matters.
And so would any Christian who they are talking about share the same ideas thoughts and values exc... They would be one just like it says in John
I see your thought process but I am comfortable seeing this as explaining 2/3 of the standard Trinity understanding. If I understand rightly you are cool with Father/HS. I don't think there is any misunderstanding that Christ being the Son (part of the trinity) and to me it was necessary to establish the significance of the sacrifice to comprehend it's importance (think Abraham's offer as sort of set up that anyone can understand).
by the way thanks for this discussion. its great to have a chance to test one's beliefs.
Pandora
Well-Known Member
Religion used to be my most favorite topics and I gave up talking about it when obama came on the scene. I realized how rusty I was when I had to look up some of this stuff that used to be memorized. I wish this forum talked about religion more than it does. I liked the way you and I talked about it. We didn’t agree in the end and we didn’t fight or insult each other. I think that is the healthiest way to talk about things like this.
agreed 100%
at the end of the day we DO agree that Christ died that we might have eternal life so no matter what details we may disagree on, I'll be seeing you in our Father's house. thats what matters.
I'm a big picture guy at heart.
I am glad my contribution has lead to a healthy debate on this forum. The problem with religious forums is that few study another point of view but seem determine to push their own point of view. Religion like Politics has many point of views. It is just as essential in religious discussion to read points of views oppose to your own. I glad this has happen among some Protestants here. Unfortunately no one seems to have or want to study the Catholic point of view so I am not sure I can contribute any further.
Pandora
Well-Known Member
I think the Catholic POV and prodestant POV on the Trinity are very much the same and I am always interested in hearing it.
I think though that there is little room for debate since the Catholic traditon is to refere back to church teachings, its not something that can really be argued or debated. Prodestants pride themselves on being bible believers so there is more room to debate and throw up vs. since the scripures are the final end all and be all for them.
well to be fair I'm Episcopal by upbringing (Anglican from the British side of the ocean) which is largely RCC without the Pope (and Virgon Mary and a few other odds and ends). I've sort of brought my own understanding to it but am in line on whats important.
and thanks for providing a platform to foster discussion.
yup. I'd love to see you get into it with a Baptist or Morman. Those guys know their chapter and verse.
Pandora
Well-Known Member
The problem with a Mormon is much like Catholic. The bottom line is not the bible its another source like the book of mormon or for a Catholic the church teachings. Now a baptist is fun because they agree to only go by what scripture says. But first you have to fight about if you are going with the King James 1611 version or something else. That debate alone is very fun
I get to drag out stuff they either didnt know about or dont want to hear
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Pandora, Thanks for your comments. It is true our church has interpret some verses in the Bible so there is little room for discussion. This applies to the Trinity which strangely most Protestants agree. I will look at this issue in another forum where there might be more disagreement.
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