The holy trinity

[numinus]

The Christians have been struggling over this matter for centuries. I have yet to hear anyone explain just how a church that claims monotheism can still believe in three beings.

Simple.

THREE PERSONS IN ONE BEING.

The us government for instance, is represented by its executive, legislative and judicial branches. One does not suppose that the us has three governments, now, does anyone?

And if you want to push this analogy to its limit, the us is ONE body politic comprising 300 million persons.

One need not struggle very hard to grasp this concept.

 

[PLC1]

Simple.

THREE PERSONS IN ONE BEING.

The us government for instance, is represented by its executive, legislative and judicial branches. One does not suppose that the us has three governments, now, does anyone?

And if you want to push this analogy to its limit, the us is ONE body politic comprising 300 million persons.

One need not struggle very hard to grasp this concept.

That brings us back to the one entity composed of several individuals concept, the same as the concept of the family being one entity composed of more than one individual.

Unless, of course, you're going to say that the government is made up of only one individual.

Or, that God is composed of several individual personages.

 

[samsara15]

That's an interesting idea, PLC1, of God being composed of a group of people or beings, instead of being a single creature. Not a bad idea at all. That even allows 'God', a plural being, to have internal disagreements with itself...perhaps God could even have a civil war within itself. Perhaps people could work our way around a lot of our seeming differences in religious belief or lack therof in we could arrive at similar common ground on other issues.

 

[PLC1]

That's an interesting idea, PLC1, of God being composed of a group of people or beings, instead of being a single creature. Not a bad idea at all. That even allows 'God', a plural being, to have internal disagreements with itself...perhaps God could even have a civil war within itself. Perhaps people could work our way around a lot of our seeming differences in religious belief or lack therof in we could arrive at similar common ground on other issues.

There are religions that believe that there have been disputes, wars even, between the gods. That is really not a new idea, but is strange to Christianity.

Not totally, as the Mormons believe that there was a war in heaven, and that Satan was exiled as a result. I'm not sure about any other Christian faiths with similar doctrine, but maybe.

As for the idea of god being composed of more than one individual, I don't see how it could be any other way. How, for example, could god the father be the same as god the son (Jesus)? It stretches the human understanding.

 

[MichaelB]

The HOLY TRINITY. You are correct. It is hard to explain and understand. But let me give it a try. The Father is GOD. The Son is JESUS CHRIST and the Holy Ghost is the SPIRIT of GOD, you know, like we have a Spirit also. GOD wanted his SON to be born in the human form and in order to do this he had to be born like we are born. Our mothers gave us our life and birth (through the life that was given to us by our fathers) so GOD chose Mary to give birth to JESUS, HIS SON. In this way he would be human so that not only could he relate to us but we could relate to him. He was Our gift from Our Father. The Spirit is what we are. When we die we leave our bodies and only our body is left behind. Have you ever been next to a deceased person? You know they are deceased without being told because they have no spirit in them. Have you ever been with someone when they have died? You can actually see and feel the moment their spirit leaves their body. It's a very profound experience to have. Once you have that experience you will never forget it and will know for sure about the spirit. I hope this will help you in your quest for answers !

 

[PLC1]

The HOLY TRINITY. You are correct. It is hard to explain and understand. But let me give it a try. The Father is GOD. The Son is JESUS CHRIST and the Holy Ghost is the SPIRIT of GOD, you know, like we have a Spirit also. GOD wanted his SON to be born in the human form and in order to do this he had to be born like we are born. Our mothers gave us our life and birth (through the life that was given to us by our fathers) so GOD chose Mary to give birth to JESUS, HIS SON. In this way he would be human so that not only could he relate to us but we could relate to him. He was Our gift from Our Father. The Spirit is what we are. When we die we leave our bodies and only our body is left behind. Have you ever been next to a deceased person? You know they are deceased without being told because they have no spirit in them. Have you ever been with someone when they have died? You can actually see and feel the moment their spirit leaves their body. It's a very profound experience to have. Once you have that experience you will never forget it and will know for sure about the spirit. I hope this will help you in your quest for answers !

That does explain the spirit. If god's spirit, unlike ours, can exit the body and return, then the father and the spirit can be the same being. What about the son? If Jesus is a god, and was fathered by god, that is what stretches human understanding. Did god choose to have his own spirit inhabit the body of Christ?

That does make some sense. I agree that we are all spirits, in possession of a body. If god's spirit came to Earth and inhabited Mary's baby, grew up in the usual way, preached peace and brotherhood, then returned to his own body after the crucifixion, then that would be another way to understand the concept of the trinity.

 

[numinus]

That brings us back to the one entity composed of several individuals concept, the same as the concept of the family being one entity composed of more than one individual.

Unless, of course, you're going to say that the government is made up of only one individual.

Or, that God is composed of several individual personages.

No. I said PERSONS, not INDIVIDUALS.

What is being contemplated here is a UNITY OF DIVINE ESSENCE -- the father, son and holy spirit being of one fundamental essence.

The us president, for instance, is at once, a private citizen, the chief executive and the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. These different persona (existing within a SINGLE individual) provides the context for his actions and decisions at any given time. Exactly the same analogy can be said about legal entities such as corporations and partnerships.

What the catholic church refers to as the 'mystery' has something to do with the full nature of the trinity. We know the epistemological basis of the family (relations that accrue from the human, pro-creative process) or the us government (the political union that accrue from the social contract), or corporations (the resultant entity that arise from the free association of individuals for economic activities). What we do not know is how the trinity came to be.

The idea is quite simple and is really beyond logical reproach. Acceptance of this idea in its entirety, however, requires faith.

 

[samsara15]

I encounter so many variants of Christian belief that I have to conclude that each and every individual has their own personal version of the faith, making it almost impossible to generalize about what Christianity means. Perhaps the proper question to discuss is what numinus believes, what Dr Who believes, or how some or several authoritative and reliable sources define the Trinity.

Christianity is by no means unique in that respect - the diversity of beliefs and opinions among individuals of any faith or religious persuasion, including non-believers, is so great that generalizations based on broad classifications cannot do individual people's beliefs full justice.

 

[numinus]

I encounter so many variants of Christian belief that I have to conclude that each and every individual has their own personal version of the faith, making it almost impossible to generalize about what Christianity means. Perhaps the proper question to discuss is what numinus believes, what Dr Who believes, or how some or several authoritative and reliable sources define the Trinity.

Christianity is by no means unique in that respect - the diversity of beliefs and opinions among individuals of any faith or religious persuasion, including non-believers, is so great that generalizations based on broad classifications cannot do individual people's beliefs full justice.

Fortunately for you, no less than the late pope john paul 2 explained the trinity in that manner -- 3 persons (manifestations) of a single fundamental essence.

 

[samsara15]

The Pope is by no means the only authoritative voice in Christianity. I would imagine that the Unitarians, for example, differ from his opinions very much, as do many other sects within the Christian faith. Nonetheless, I will concur with you that the Pope is one of the most authoritative voices who defines the Christian faith. Acceptance of this idea, as you said, requires faith in at least some version of Christianity, either partially or completely, of which I have none, since I have other religious beliefs.

As goes the Doxology: 'God in three persons, blessed Trinity'?

 

[MichaelB]

Three persons in one Being ... Well, don't you think we as humans are very complex ourselves and we have many personalities within ourselves (which could mean figuratively) that we are more than just one person. I know that personally I am a constant changing person and when I look back on my life I feel I have actually led several lives and been more that just me. Make sense?

 

[numinus]

The Pope is by no means the only authoritative voice in Christianity. I would imagine that the Unitarians, for example, differ from his opinions very much, as do many other sects within the Christian faith. Nonetheless, I will concur with you that the Pope is one of the most authoritative voices who defines the Christian faith. Acceptance of this idea, as you said, requires faith in at least some version of Christianity, either partially or completely, of which I have none, since I have other religious beliefs.

As goes the Doxology: 'God in three persons, blessed Trinity'?

I'm not asking you to believe. I am merely saying that the concept of trinity, aside from having references from the christian bible, is an idea that isn't entirely removed from human experience -- certainly within reasonable contemplation for a monist like yourself.

 

[samsara15]

Well, if you put it that way, I believe all lving creatures ore part of 'God', along with a lot of seemingly non-living matter and energy.

 

[numinus]

Well, if you put it that way, I believe all lving creatures ore part of 'God', along with a lot of seemingly non-living matter and energy.

To some extent, I have no problem with that.

As I said, god is both IMMANENT AND TRANSCENDENT.

 

[MichaelB]

Well, if you put it that way, I believe all lving creatures ore part of 'God', along with a lot of seemingly non-living matter and energy.

Excuse me for intruding but I have a question for you. Do you believe in God because I thought that you didn't. Everything that God created is part of him. He created it. Even the non living matter and energy.