No Hell & everyone gets saved.

[Apathy]

I realize it is crude - but common sense or realistic application simply must be included as a reference.

If you do not see or acknowledge the realistic need for salvation in this world and from this world here and now - then it would be absurd to offer any verse to convince you.

=======================



An unforgivable sin does not include an unforgivable punishment.

Jesus paid the price as Jesus took on our punishment so the sin itself does not need to be forgiven when the punishment is vacant.

And in fact I myself really do not want my sins forgiven because forgiving sins is an insult and never a compliment.

I appreciate being forgiven of my rightful punishments, but my horrible past sins are what keeps me determined never to live that way ever again.

So you refuse to support your claim fair enough. What can be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence... Next thread.

 

[JPCusick]

So you refuse to support your claim fair enough. What can be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence... Next thread.

I did not refuse to support my info as I did give support in detail and more.

If anyone does not like what was given last then go back to the opening post #1 and #4 for the original info, see link HERE.

I give big evidence along with direct quotes and links and explanation and more.

And I would point out another relevant-to-you text which reads like this = "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

 

[dogtowner]

I did not refuse to support my info as I did give support in detail and more.

If anyone does not like what was given last then go back to the opening post #1 and #4 for the original info, see link HERE.

I give big evidence along with direct quotes and links and explanation and more.

And I would point out another relevant-to-you text which reads like this = "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

hmmm ok so you make the valid point that so e sort of "firey' notion of heck is not supported by scripture, fair enough. but then in post on e you take a pretty large jump to this meaning that salvaton is a done deal and further that there are two sorts (bleeds over to #4). what was being requested is scriptural support and, from what I saw (I may be off base) that never came to pass relying near the end to an appeal to common sense.

just a thought... might not an existance devoid of God's love be as terrible a thing as one might imagine ? however one can imagine a life being terrible.

 

[JPCusick]

hmmm ok so you make the valid point that so e sort of "firey' notion of heck is not supported by scripture, fair enough. but then in post on e you take a pretty large jump to this meaning that salvaton is a done deal and further that there are two sorts (bleeds over to #4). what was being requested is scriptural support and, from what I saw (I may be off base) that never came to pass relying near the end to an appeal to common sense.

It is not being made clear as to whatever is wanted supported by text, but if you mean there being two (2) forms of salvation then we can see that in the 10 commandments as to the first 4 refer to spiritual concerns while the last 6 refer to dealing with earthly concerns.

And there is the story of the righteous Samaritan who helped the injured person, or where Jesus tells us to feed, clothe, visit those in prison, and such as that which declare a worldly salvation.

As in this line from a previous posting = "Jesus teaches being saved from human frailties, saved from injustices, from addictions, ignorance, and saved from assorted evil of this life time."

If you do not understand or accept that - then you need to be specific in your denial.

just a thought... might not an existence devoid of God's love be as terrible a thing as one might imagine ? however one can imagine a life being terrible.

A lot of people (Christians) say things like that and I simply say that you (and they) do not know what "love" means.

It is impossible to be separated from real love even if separated extremely, as on another planet or if dead and buried as nothing can separate love.

Reference 1 John 4:7-21

And particularly is verse 18 = "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." KJV.

People believe (by any definition) in a hell-of-"torment" based on their fear as told above - and it is not based on love.

 

[Apathy]

I did not refuse to support my info as I did give support in detail and more.

Yes you did you refused to provide biblical justification.
"If you do not see or acknowledge the realistic need for salvation in this world and from this world here and now - then it would be absurd to offer any verse to convince you."

I give big evidence along with direct quotes and links and explanation and more.

Which was refuted.

And I would point out another relevant-to-you text which reads like this = "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

First off you empty suite I did not lie second off these are your rules not mine. I do not need to adhere to your religious dogma as I am not a member of your faith. However seeing as you are a Christian you do have to follow the text and teachings lest you be labeled a hypocrite.

John 8 (for you)

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[dogtowner]

It is not being made clear as to whatever is wanted supported by text, but if you mean there being two (2) forms of salvation then we can see that in the 10 commandments as to the first 4 refer to spiritual concerns while the last 6 refer to dealing with earthly concerns.

And there is the story of the righteous Samaritan who helped the injured person, or where Jesus tells us to feed, clothe, visit those in prison, and such as that which declare a worldly salvation.

As in this line from a previous posting = "Jesus teaches being saved from human frailties, saved from injustices, from addictions, ignorance, and saved from assorted evil of this life time."

If you do not understand or accept that - then you need to be specific in your denial.

I understand what yoiu are reaching for its just not justifiable in my understanding. I see no separation of various of the ten commandments. not stealing is no different that loving God. they are concurrent in this life of mine as worthy goals which I'm liable to fall short of thereby requiring the salvation Christ offers.

A lot of people (Christians) say things like that and I simply say that you (and they) do not know what "love" means.

It is impossible to be separated from real love even if separated extremely, as on another planet or if dead and buried as nothing can separate love.

Reference 1 John 4:7-21

And particularly is verse 18 = "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." KJV.

People believe (by any definition) in a hell-of-"torment" based on their fear as told above - and it is not based on love.

I will admit that bwefore I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior that I did not fully understand love, saw it in a far shallower and incomplete sense. but please note that it was only by my active acceptance of grace that I came to know this. it was wonderful and terrible at the same time as I had to learn just how terrible my sin had been to comprehend just why Christ's sacrifice was so horrible. I made it so. By His stripes was I saved and will enjoy eternal life as opposed to the spiritual death I was destimed for before that. And I also know why the unforgivable sin is unforgivable.

If you seek to change my thinking, and I'm not saying you do, you will require scripture reference that support your claims. what you offer does not. In my opinion of course.

 

[JPCusick]

First off you empty suite I did not lie second off these are your rules not mine. I do not need to adhere to your religious dogma as I am not a member of your faith. However seeing as you are a Christian you do have to follow the text and teachings lest you be labeled a hypocrite.

John 8 (for you)

I did not mean to give the impression that I was casting stones at you, and I was not saying that you lied.

What I said was literal as in "Do not bear false witness" as in you said I refuse to support my claim which is not accurate.

I did and I do support my claim and more, so just because you reject my support does not mean that I did not give it since I did.

I call that "a false witness" but it was not really a lie, since you are mistaken and I see you as being untrue because of your mistake and not by dishonesty.

That is what I meant - that the witness was false, but false does not necessarily mean a lie.

 

[Apathy]

I did not mean to give the impression that I was casting stones at you, and I was not saying that you lied.

What I said was literal as in "Do not bear false witness" as in you said I refuse to support my claim which is not accurate.

I did and I do support my claim and more, so just because you reject my support does not mean that I did not give it since I did.

I call that "a false witness" but it was not really a lie, since you are mistaken and I see you as being untrue because of your mistake and not by dishonesty.

That is what I meant - that the witness was false, but false does not necessarily mean a lie.

You attack my character and insult my intelligence by using such a clearly deceitful tactic. Who are you to quote bible verses hypocritically over the internet? Who are you to judge me? Who are you to invoke the name of god on your behalf when it fits your purposes in an argument? Would you dare look me in the eye and make that accusation? You come here under the pretense of doing gods work but all you do is insult the dissent. What does that say of your god? Just because someone asks you to back the claims doesn't make them a teller of falsehoods. You refused to provide justification (which I can show) so I dismissed your claim. If you don't like it fine, but there is no excuse for such a malicious attack on my character it is without basis and without merit. Now you back away from the claim with your rubbish semantics.

You are what is wrong with society, god to you has merely become a tool to use for your benefit. What would a god seeing this behaviour think, a god of nature, a god of an infinitely majestic universe. What would he think of this? You are not a prophet of god you are no more qualified to portray this deities will than any other man with a thought or opinion on the matter. But yet you open an ancient text to condemn me as if I was the one who professed to live by it.

You can't take back the stone once it has been cast, which is why I thought long and hard before I decided to write this. I just wish you would have done the same. I'll have you know this is as tactful as I could be without filtering my thoughts so please don't take this as an attack, view it a passionate advice.

 

[JPCusick]

You attack my character and insult my intelligence by using such a clearly deceitful tactic. Who are you to quote bible verses hypocritically over the internet? Who are you to judge me? Who are you to invoke the name of god on your behalf when it fits your purposes in an argument? Would you dare look me in the eye and make that accusation?

What would he think of this? You are not a prophet of god you are no more qualified to portray this deities will than any other man with a thought or opinion on the matter. But yet you open an ancient text to condemn me as if I was the one who professed to live by it.

I see no reason why you or I or anyone can not be a prophet of God as it is rather easy to do.

I say if a drunken bum laying in a gutter speaks a truthful judgement then that drunken bum would be a prophet of God for every truth the bum speaks.

And a drunken bum as a prophet can preach from the Bible while laying in the gutter.

As such then I certainly do see myself as being qualified to do the same.

As to looking you into the eye and saying such things then you might be correct, especially if you have out of control emotional outburst as is the impression from your posting, but I say that would be your own defect if people can not tell you their beliefs to your face. I would certainly invite anyone to speak what they feel and believe to my face as I welcome the communications from others.

And this scenario gives a boost of praise for the Internet forum because people like you and I and others are capable of communicating here online without the complications of a face to face conflict, as this seems like a safe and respectful and effective way of interacting.

You can't take back the stone once it has been cast, which is why I thought long and hard before I decided to write this. I just wish you would have done the same. I'll have you know this is as tactful as I could be without filtering my thoughts so please don't take this as an attack, view it a passionate advice.

I stand behind all of my postings here as being honest and forthright and appropriate.

I did correctly address your issue, and it remains there for anyone to see.

Peace.

 

[Dr.Who]

It is not being made clear as to whatever is wanted supported by text, but if you mean there being two (2) forms of salvation then we can see that in the 10 commandments as to the first 4 refer to spiritual concerns while the last 6 refer to dealing with earthly concerns.

And there is the story of the righteous Samaritan who helped the injured person, or where Jesus tells us to feed, clothe, visit those in prison, and such as that which declare a worldly salvation.

As in this line from a previous posting = "Jesus teaches being saved from human frailties, saved from injustices, from addictions, ignorance, and saved from assorted evil of this life time."

If you do not understand or accept that - then you need to be specific in your denial.



A lot of people (Christians) say things like that and I simply say that you (and they) do not know what "love" means.

It is impossible to be separated from real love even if separated extremely, as on another planet or if dead and buried as nothing can separate love.

Reference 1 John 4:7-21

And particularly is verse 18 = "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." KJV.

People believe (by any definition) in a hell-of-"torment" based on their fear as told above - and it is not based on love.

It would seem that what you are saying is that earthly blessings are examples of earthly salvation and spiritual blessings are examples of a spiritual salvation. It would not be the way I would normally use the word salvation but I guess I can stretch that a bit and go along with that.

But what are the implications?

It would seem that you are saying that mention in the bible of salvation being available to those with faith refer to earthly blessings and that the second or spiritual salvation is available even without faith.

It is clear that God gives earthly blessings to those whom He chooses to bless and not to those whom He chooses not. Thus earthly blessings fall upon the just and the unjust alike.

However, as far as I can see the Bible speaks clearly that spiritual blessings or salvation come to those with faith. (are you saying that each of those instances is really a statement about earthly salvation?) It also is not blatantly clear that no one without faith will not receive a spiritual salvation - but it is hinted at pretty strongly. What I still see as lacking is any statement saying that everyone receives a spiritual salvation regardless of their status as faithful or not. Do you have one?

 

[Dr.Who]

I see no reason why you or I or anyone can not be a prophet of God as it is rather easy to do.
I say if a drunken bum laying in a gutter speaks a truthful judgement then that drunken bum would be a prophet of God for every truth the bum speaks.

This I can disagree with a bit more readily.

A prophet is one who is sent out by God.

If one speaks the truth of God either accidentally or because one happens to believe it but is not acting as an agent of God then one is not a prophet.

Additionally a prophet must always be right in every instance in which he claims to speak for God, even one false prophesy condemns him as not a prophet.

A prophet must both be sent by God and be 100% right in his prophesies.

 

[JPCusick]

However, as far as I can see the Bible speaks clearly that spiritual blessings or salvation come to those with faith. (are you saying that each of those instances is really a statement about earthly salvation?) It also is not blatantly clear that no one without faith will not receive a spiritual salvation - but it is hinted at pretty strongly. What I still see as lacking is any statement saying that everyone receives a spiritual salvation regardless of their status as faithful or not. Do you have one?

I do say that the references to "faith" does mean an earthly or physical salvation, even though there are spiritual connections too.

In example it takes faith (not necessarily faith in God) to overcome negative traits as like addictions and ignorance and debaucheries, and Jesus gave physical cures as it is recorded in several places that Jesus declared such things as "thy faith hath made thee whole", Mark 5:34, so that "faith" is for earthly physical salvation from our ailments.

As to your last sentence then the Bible declares twice that on the Judgement Day - "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" Romans 14:11, and it declares that "in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, so it does says everyone and "all" as not even one lost sheep.

This I can disagree with a bit more readily.

A prophet is one who is sent out by God.

If one speaks the truth of God either accidentally or because one happens to believe it but is not acting as an agent of God then one is not a prophet.

Additionally a prophet must always be right in every instance in which he claims to speak for God, even one false prophesy condemns him as not a prophet.

A prophet must both be sent by God and be 100% right in his prophesies.

I do not agree that every prophet has to be some perfect person or even 100% right, but if you take that stand then so be it.

If not a "prophet" then a messenger of God, as in some drunken bum gives a truthful and inspired message then I would not reject it because of my not liking the messenger.

I say anyone anywhere of any kind can speak for God at any given moment, and the person makes no difference while the message makes all the difference.

 

[Dr.Who]

I do say that the references to "faith" does mean an earthly or physical salvation, even though there are spiritual connections too.

In example it takes faith (not necessarily faith in God) to overcome negative traits as like addictions and ignorance and debaucheries, and Jesus gave physical cures as it is recorded in several places that Jesus declared such things as "thy faith hath made thee whole", Mark 5:34, so that "faith" is for earthly physical salvation from our ailments.

As to your last sentence then the Bible declares twice that on the Judgement Day - "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God" Romans 14:11, and it declares that "in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, so it does says everyone and "all" as not even one lost sheep.



I do not agree that every prophet has to be some perfect person or even 100% right, but if you take that stand then so be it.

If not a "prophet" then a messenger of God, as in some drunken bum gives a truthful and inspired message then I would not reject it because of my not liking the messenger.

I say anyone anywhere of any kind can speak for God at any given moment, and the person makes no difference while the message makes all the difference.

Thank you for providing your reasoning and verses. I would have to do a more intensive study to decide if your interpretation is best.

Regarding how perfect a prophet needs to be: they are by no means perfect or 100% right all the time. Only when they speak for God are they required to be 100% right.

I could stand behind the notion that a bum could speak truth and could even be inspired in some sense. I definitely stand behind the idea that we do not need to like the messenger for the message to be true.

 

[JPCusick]

Thank you for providing your reasoning and verses. I would have to do a more intensive study to decide if your interpretation is best.

Regarding how perfect a prophet needs to be: they are by no means perfect or 100% right all the time. Only when they speak for God are they required to be 100% right.

I could stand behind the notion that a bum could speak truth and could even be inspired in some sense. I definitely stand behind the idea that we do not need to like the messenger for the message to be true.

I must say that of the thousands of postings on assorted Internet forums that I am not accustomed to some one like you who so clearly gives your consideration and sincerity.

As such you have my full respect and appreciation.

Therefore I seek to offer you one more pertinent text which I hope to explain.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.

That one sentence tells so very much.

That "sin" causes "death" and not burning in any hell, and then it declares that the "eternal life" is a "gift" which means we do not already have eternal life, as in no eternal life in Heaven or in Hell as what we had was just death, and Jesus gives us all eternal life at a later date - the Judgement Day.

The thing about sin causing death is that no one (not even God) can live forever (have eternal life) because the sinning will kill anyone and everyone. Sinners can not live on in an eternal hell because the sinner can not live forever as the sin produces death.

It is like one (1) small little lie will grow and grow as a simple little lie can grow into a monstrous horrible reality and that is because as Romans 6:23 declares = sin produces death.

The only way that people can live forever is by removing the sin, just as God can not sin or else the sin would kill God.

Eternal life can not exist in a hell because evil self destructs - as in sin kills and sin produces death, and eternal life can not be sustained unless the sin is extinguished.

Jesus dying on the cross was not the point, as Jesus rising from the dead was the point, in that "DEATH" could not hold Him, per Acts 2:22-32

 

[a777pilot]

The Bible does not really teach of any burning HELL as the word in the Bible only means the grave or garbage dump where they use to throw dead bodies.

Many religions beside Christianity has taught people this wrong barbaric idea as their religious doctrine, but it is not real.

1) Any God that burns people for any reason is not only a monster but a criminal and a sinner and an evil entity.

2) Burning people is not "forgiveness" as it is rather the opposite of forgiving.

3) Burning people is not "love" as it is rather the opposite of love.

4) Putting any person into a Hell, link, is not justice and such an evil idea can not be justice.

5) To "love" means no pain and no more hurting for anyone, as per: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." KJV. Revelation 21:4.

God is love, link here = 1 John 4:8, and God does not hurt people, and that means no one ever goes to any hell.

Everyone is a sinner at various degrees and depth, and there is no one as righteous.

Nobody goes to some fire and torment of any hell, and the saying of "Hell on earth" in this lifetime now is far more accurate.

In the end everyone gets saved and not even one sinner nor one evil sheep gets lost or left out because salvation is for all of mankind.

Jesus said "Love thy enemies" just as God loves His enemies, Matthew 5:43-48, so love does not burn people and love does not hurt people, and that means not even those that are sinners and enemies.

See 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.

The plan is to have a great salvation, and it would not be great if some people were excluded.

Just FYI.

That's just too funny. So you think you are smarter than God. Interesting. Are you really, really rich? Do we all know you? do have the answer to the Theory of Everything? NO? Must not be too smart. LOL! Hell, just have to read your post to understand you are not that smart.

But keep them coming. They amuse me.