No Hell & everyone gets saved.

[Dr.Who]

right. salvation is available to all for the asking.

I personally believe it is available even without the asking. The Noble Savage is forgiven seeing God in nature and worshiping that God. He may never have been told the name that others use but he saw the true God nevertheless.

Suppoose that you have a person who is being raised in a church that teaches things that are wrong (all do to some extent). Suppose this church teaches things that are so wrong that a person who accepts this teaching must not only be in error but must not have faith in the true God. Now supposed that this person is actually ignorant of his churches teachings and God reveals himself to this person so that this person sees the real God. Just like the Noble Savage was saved so too would this person.

Taking it to the extreme, suppose this person in the errant church is actually part of a Muslim community on the other side of the world. If this person still sees the true nature of God and worships that true nature then this person is forgiven despite belonging to an errant community.

 

[dogtowner]

To throw a money wrench in here...

Should we still call that an "act" on our part if the act is motivated by God himself?

First God calls one then that one demonstrates faith and then that one is forgiven. Yet somehow the fact that all the elect are first called does not diminish personal responsibility?

hmmm
I suppose I consider it more of an offering, free will and all. God is not looking for slaves.

 

[fluffybiscuits]

This is one thing I never did understand. Free will gives people the ability to commit sin. If you dont want people to commit sin why give them the ability in the first place? Also if we are also in the image of God does that not mean God himself is a sinner if we are the exact mirror reflection?

PS Im not trolling but intrigued!

 

[Dr.Who]

This is one thing I never did understand. Free will gives people the ability to commit sin. If you dont want people to commit sin why give them the ability in the first place? Also if we are also in the image of God does that not mean God himself is a sinner if we are the exact mirror reflection?

PS Im not trolling but intrigued!

Both good questions.

As I see it, if god did not give people free will that would cause him to be in violation of his nature - in other words a good God could not create people that did not have free will. Given that we were created with the ability to sin we can suppose that we might be better off sinning and later being forgiven than if we never had free will in the first place. Additionally, our sinning allows God to demonstrate his goodness again when He forgives. In contrast the God that did not create creatures with free will would be neither good in creating automatons nor good when they never were forgiven for what they never did.

We are indeed created in His image but that does not mean in every possible way that one could be like another. After all if that image had to be in every characteristic then there could not be some of us who were tall and others who were short. We must be created in God's image in just one or a few meaningful attributes. I don't know what they are but I do know that they cause each and every one of us to have value.

 

[dogtowner]

I personally believe it is available even without the asking. The Noble Savage is forgiven seeing God in nature and worshiping that God. He may never have been told the name that others use but he saw the true God nevertheless.

Suppoose that you have a person who is being raised in a church that teaches things that are wrong (all do to some extent). Suppose this church teaches things that are so wrong that a person who accepts this teaching must not only be in error but must not have faith in the true God. Now supposed that this person is actually ignorant of his churches teachings and God reveals himself to this person so that this person sees the real God. Just like the Noble Savage was saved so too would this person.

Taking it to the extreme, suppose this person in the errant church is actually part of a Muslim community on the other side of the world. If this person still sees the true nature of God and worships that true nature then this person is forgiven despite belonging to an errant community.

well the church is somewhat irrelevant as the contract, as it were, is betwen the individual and Christ Jesus (no one comes to the Father except through me). That lets Muslims out unless they turn to Crist.

as to the noble savages, is that not why we're directed to spread the Good News to the whole world?

 

[Dr.Who]

well the church is somewhat irrelevant as the contract, as it were, is betwen the individual and Christ Jesus (no one comes to the Father except through me). That lets Muslims out unless they turn to Crist.

as to the noble savages, is that not why we're directed to spread the Good News to the whole world?

Unless they turn to Christ - yes. Regardless of what church or group they belong to if they, individually, turn to Christ, then they do not have a relationship with God. Kind of redundant though to say that they won't have a relationship with God unless they have a relationship with God. It would also be a truism. So it really is not exclusionary for Christians to say that people cannot go to heaven unless they know Christ. It is exclusionary if they think that the only way to know Christ is to sit in a particular church. I am not saying that all thought on god are equally valid but all thought on the true Glod are equally valid even if they are thought by a person who has only heard of God through the testimony of nature and still worships the creator. There are still plenty of people who could have responded to the testimony of nature or to a true message but choose not to accept it.

And the noble savage is not dependent on Christians to tell him the gospel - it certainly helps but it is not the only path to God. God is perfectly capable of providing direct revelation as well as the evidence from nature. He is also perfectly capable of providing people with a great commission.

 

[dogtowner]

Unless they turn to Christ - yes. Regardless of what church or group they belong to if they, individually, turn to Christ, then they do not have a relationship with God. Kind of redundant though to say that they won't have a relationship with God unless they have a relationship with God. It would also be a truism. So it really is not exclusionary for Christians to say that people cannot go to heaven unless they know Christ. It is exclusionary if they think that the only way to know Christ is to sit in a particular church. I am not saying that all thought on god are equally valid but all thought on the true Glod are equally valid even if they are thought by a person who has only heard of God through the testimony of nature and still worships the creator. There are still plenty of people who could have responded to the testimony of nature or to a true message but choose not to accept it.

And the noble savage is not dependent on Christians to tell him the gospel - it certainly helps but it is not the only path to God. God is perfectly capable of providing direct revelation as well as the evidence from nature. He is also perfectly capable of providing people with a great commission.

As I understand it (your millage may vary) is that we're called upon to spread the Good News (no particular denomination/sect has an exclusive on that) whereupon the Holy Spirit assumes the heavy lifting of convincing them of the truth. I don't think a tree or any other sense of chi etc is going to take care of the first part. (Yes I do know chi and don't see it as in conflict with being Christian. If that means I'm going to heck, oh well...)

 

[Dr.Who]

As I understand it (your millage may vary) is that we're called upon to spread the Good News (no particular denomination/sect has an exclusive on that) whereupon the Holy Spirit assumes the heavy lifting of convincing them of the truth. I don't think a tree or any other sense of chi etc is going to take care of the first part. (Yes I do know chi and don't see it as in conflict with being Christian. If that means I'm going to heck, oh well...)

I must be slow this morning. I spent a few moments trying to figure out what the word millage meant and was just about to go to an online dictionary when I realized it was mileage. Go ahead and laugh at me As one who has "fat fingers" and has to retype just about everything before I hit send I am certainly not making fun of your spelling.

I agree with your general concept that people provide the opportunity for others to hear and then the spirit moves. I think you would be disagreeing with Paul if you say that nature is not one of the methods that God uses to show people the truth of his creation.

"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. "

Additionally, not only is nature itself sufficient for all to know God if they do not fool themselves but each persons conscience also tells them of God:

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Rom. 2:11-16, NASB).For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Rom. 2:11-16, NASB)."

 

[dogtowner]

I must be slow this morning. I spent a few moments trying to figure out what the word millage meant and was just about to go to an online dictionary when I realized it was mileage. Go ahead and laugh at me As one who has "fat fingers" and has to retype just about everything before I hit send I am certainly not making fun of your spelling.

oops yes mileage. millage is actually a word which is why It didnt underline. refers to real estate tax rate.

I agree with your general concept that people provide the opportunity for others to hear and then the spirit moves. I think you would be disagreeing with Paul if you say that nature is not one of the methods that God uses to show people the truth of his creation.

I can agree with nature running in accordance with God's plan but its a bit more reach than I can make to pointing to Christ as your savior.

Additionally, not only is nature itself sufficient for all to know God if they do not fool themselves but each persons conscience also tells them of God:

I agree that whats typically viewed as conscience is how the Holy Spirit speakes to us but I'm reminded of the old images of having an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. I believe evil exists in the world and is capable of simulating this experience. All too often I believe that little voice is NOT the right one. If you ASK for the right one with your heart open and rrue, you will get it. Otherwise it just tells you what you want to hear.

 

[JPCusick]

Jesus did take upon Himself our sin but salvation requires that you accept it. It requires an act on our part.

There really is no truth in that claim.

No one has to accept anything, no choice, no belief required, as salvation is a free gift to all of humanity as Jesus paid the full price for everyone with no one being left out or lost.

Jesus never taught any such doctrine as = Believe in Me or else I will burn your souls forever in a hell - no.

 

[Apathy]

There really is no truth in that claim.

No one has to accept anything, no choice, no belief required, as salvation is a free gift to all of humanity as Jesus paid the full price for everyone with no one being left out or lost.

Jesus never taught any such doctrine as = Believe in Me or else I will burn your souls forever in a hell - no.

There is no truth to any of these mythological claims. But theologically you are wrong.

John 3:16 explicitly states a need to believe in order to obtain salvation..

John 5:24 again

John 6:47 again

John 11:25 again

Acts 4:12 again

Romans 8:1

Romans 10:9

and many many more...

The bible has made it very clear almost any sin is forgivable, except not being daft enough to believe that a 33 year old Jewish carpenter did not break the surface tension of the water.

 

[JPCusick]

There is no truth to any of these mythological claims. But theologically you are wrong.

John 3:16 explicitly states a need to believe in order to obtain salvation..
John 5:24 again
John 6:47 again
John 11:25 again
Acts 4:12 again
Romans 8:1
Romans 10:9
and many many more...

The bible has made it very clear almost any sin is forgivable, except not being daft enough to believe that a 33 year old Jewish carpenter did not break the surface tension of the water.

That is because people fail to see that there are two (2) different kinds of "salvation", in that the after death salvation was paid in full by Jesus on the cross so that is a done deal.

The other kind of salvation which is the most important kind of salvation is here and now in this lifetime.

Jesus teaches being saved from human frailties, saved from injustices, from addictions, ignorance, and saved from assorted evil of this life time.

After death is fine and taken care of, but here and now we have a confused and lost world which still needs to be saved.

 

[Dr.Who]

That is because people fail to see that there are two (2) different kinds of "salvation", in that the after death salvation was paid in full by Jesus on the cross so that is a done deal.

The other kind of salvation which is the most important kind of salvation is here and now in this lifetime.

Jesus teaches being saved from human frailties, saved from injustices, from addictions, ignorance, and saved from assorted evil of this life time.

After death is fine and taken care of, but here and now we have a confused and lost world which still needs to be saved.

Can you support that with some verses?

 

[dogtowner]

Can you support that with some verses?

maybe address the unforgivable sin while you're at it ?

 

[JPCusick]

Can you support that with some verses?

I realize it is crude - but common sense or realistic application simply must be included as a reference.

If you do not see or acknowledge the realistic need for salvation in this world and from this world here and now - then it would be absurd to offer any verse to convince you.

=======================

maybe address the unforgivable sin while you're at it ?

An unforgivable sin does not include an unforgivable punishment.

Jesus paid the price as Jesus took on our punishment so the sin itself does not need to be forgiven when the punishment is vacant.

And in fact I myself really do not want my sins forgiven because forgiving sins is an insult and never a compliment.

I appreciate being forgiven of my rightful punishments, but my horrible past sins are what keeps me determined never to live that way ever again.