No Hell & everyone gets saved.

[pocketfullofshells]

may want to accept Christ as your Lord and savior if only to hedge your bets.

if that works for someone, thats a pretty pathetic god.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Listening to one's own 'little voice' allows for rationalization which is no guarantee of right and wrong. Its subject to being just what you really want to do.

because reading whats right and wrong from a book has never worked out poorly.

 

[Gipper]

That is correct, and when those people are powerless and reformed then they are just other people as like our selves or like anyone else.

If we compare such infamous persons to the concept of a burning hell, then people who do believe in that hell are saying they do believe in torturing and brutalizing humans in their idea of hell and that belief makes those believers into just as monstrous and evil as any of the persons you name above.

Those who believe in the burning hell are just as guilty as was Hitler who orchestrated a hell on earth.

If one thinks evil in their hearts and minds, then they are just as guilty as those who actually do such things.

I am sorry, but this is nonsense.

To conclude that believing in Hell makes one just as guilty as Hitler, is absolute poppycock.

Second, if the murderous monsters of all of human history get to Heaven, then what is stopping anyone from committing mass murder?

Where in Jesus' teachings did he say ALL of us get to Heaven and our actions here on earth have no consequences?

 

[Openmind]

I am sorry, but this is nonsense.

To conclude that believing in Hell makes one just as guilty as Hitler, is absolute poppycock.

Second, if the murderous monsters of all of human history get to Heaven, then what is stopping anyone from committing mass murder?

Where in Jesus' teachings did he say ALL of us get to Heaven and our actions here on earth have no consequences?

There is no hell, and there is no heaven. . .except the ones we create for ourselves right here on earth..

 

[JPCusick]

To conclude that believing in Hell makes one just as guilty as Hitler, is absolute poppycock.

The concept is derived in part from Jesus saying that if one looks with lust then they are guilty of adultery in their heart, Matthew 5:27-28, so if people believe in a violent torture of human souls in a hell then they have that inhumanity within their heart and therefore guilty of doing the crime in their heart.

According to history then there is no known record of Adolf Hitler ever killing anyone himself as Hitler just believed it in his own heart while other people carried out his horrible ideas.

It is the mentality of burning souls in a hell that also burned human being at the stake, link.

A person has to think it and believe it before they can then do such things.

Second, if the murderous monsters of all of human history get to Heaven, then what is stopping anyone from committing mass murder?

It is NOT really a matter of going to any "Heaven" as that is pompous nonsense too, and the real message was = Thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven. That is "on earth" and NOT in some mystical Heaven place.

Back to the question - the thing that stops "mass murders" is the same as individual murders or raping or petty theft, which is that the police will arrest anyone and prosecute any of us who do such a crime.

For Adolf Hitler it was the USA and our allies who put a stop to Hitler.

After death then God forgives humanity, but in this life time our fellow man does NOT forgive.

Where in Jesus' teachings did he say ALL of us get to Heaven and our actions here on earth have no consequences?

If you look at my posting #1 of this thread then that gives the Bible text and more.

But it is NOT correct to say that our beliefs and actions here and now do not have consequences because surely they do indeed:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." KJV, Galatians 6:7

That includes every person both great or insignificant, so there is a consequence but not some hell or "place of torment" after dying - no.

 

[Dr.Who]

One might think sin/wrong doing is relative or one might think it is objective. Regardless of which it is aren't we all still sinners? A relativists could not reasonably claim to have done no wrong ever. And even the person who believes in objective sin but has a too small list would be hard pressed to honestly consider himself to be sinless.

Whoever you are, for the moment forget the definitions and just admit that you have sinned. Anything less is denial.

 

[dogtowner]

because reading whats right and wrong from a book has never worked out poorly.

if thats what one does they're doing it wrong.

 

[Dr.Who]

The Bible does not really teach of any burning HELL as the word in the Bible only means the grave or garbage dump where they use to throw dead bodies.

AFter years of thinking about the subject I have come to some conclusions about some things and still have questions about others.

The definitions of the actual words are helpful at a time but later one thinks on the concepts.

I can't convince you and won't even try. I can say what I think and just say that it is what I have concluded after much thought and for my own reasons.

Heaven and hell are not physical places but are spiritual places. Whatever descriptions of them there are will not include any physical fire. Even if it did one's body would be long gone and only the spirit would remain. Without a body physical fire would not burn one.

But what kind of "place" is hell? It would not have length or width, it would not be up or down or east or west of something else. Based on thoughts that may or may not be yours I conclude that IMO, hell is the experience of being out of communion with God, it is being separated from God, being far from God; Hell is wanting to love and be loved by God but being unable to do so. It is in fact synonymous with the second death.

Think of the death of Adam. On the day he sinned he died but then he lived for many more years. There are two deaths - the spiritual in which upon one's first sin one is separated from God and is spiritually dead, and the second death of the body in which the body dies later. Before the second death one is still subject to the flesh and can still be tempted and can still make the choice to do what is right or not. After the second death there will be no more flesh to tempt us or to be corrupted. So when do we have to make the choice to have faith in God who saves? Before the flesh is gone or after? Honestly it appears that the choice must be made before the flesh is gone but it also appears that God wishes no one to miss out on heaven. If God does save even after death there is still value in being saved as soon as possible. It is appealing to decide that God saves after death but IMO that opinion stands on shaky ground. If God does not save after death and there is value in being saved as soon as possible then I choose to be saved as soon as possible. Why would someone choose to be separated from God any longer than necessary? Knowing that God wants to love you now could we say that the person who choose to delay his salvation loved and trusted God? And if he does not love and trust God then he is not saved. The experience of loving and trusting God is truistically connected to salvation. When one sins it is because one does not trust God and therefore one is separated from God both because of the sin and the lack of trust that caused it. One one begins to love and trust God again one is rejoined with God both because the love and trust are restored and because he no longer loves sin.

Hitler, Stalin and the rest? Do they love and trust God and did their love and trust motivate their behaviors? It is self evident that much of what they did was not because they loved and trusted God. But if they became new people sometime near death then those new people certainly could be receive the love of God and be near to Him in heaven. I trust God to have made the right decision regarding Hitler and Stalin etc.

 

[JPCusick]

One might think sin/wrong doing is relative or one might think it is objective. Regardless of which it is aren't we all still sinners? A relativists could not reasonably claim to have done no wrong ever. And even the person who believes in objective sin but has a too small list would be hard pressed to honestly consider himself to be sinless.

Whoever you are, for the moment forget the definitions and just admit that you have sinned. Anything less is denial.

I do not see the sense in that, and the vast majority of humanity will openly admit that we are all sinners, and the far bigger challenge is in telling people that they are forgiven and they are loved and that they are children of God.

Jesus already paid the price in full, with everyone being forgiven, and we are told that God loves His enemies, Matthew 5:43-48

It is time for humanity to grow up and come out of our denials and fears.

 

[dogtowner]

I do not see the sense in that, and the vast majority of humanity will openly admit that we are all sinners, and the far bigger challenge is in telling people that they are forgiven and they are loved and that they are children of God.

Jesus already paid the price in full, with everyone being forgiven, and we are told that God loves His enemies, Matthew 5:43-48

It is time for humanity to grow up and come out of our denials and fears.

Jesus did take upon Himself our sin but salvation requires that you accept it. It requires an act on our part.

 

[Gipper]

Jesus did take upon Himself our sin but salvation requires that you accept it. It requires an act on our part.

Yes. What about those who are NOT believers? They are not asking God for salvation...they do not believe God exists. If one does not believe God exists, how is it God will give them salvation?

Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So, obviously those who do not believe in the Son of Man, don't get to the Father.

 

[dogtowner]

Yes. What about those who are NOT believers? They are not asking God for salvation...they do not believe God exists. If one does not believe God exists, how is it God will give them salvation?

Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So, obviously those who do not believe in the Son of Man, don't get to the Father.

right. salvation is available to all for the asking.

 

[Dr.Who]

I do not see the sense in that, and the vast majority of humanity will openly admit that we are all sinners, and the far bigger challenge is in telling people that they are forgiven and they are loved and that they are children of God.

Jesus already paid the price in full, with everyone being forgiven, and we are told that God loves His enemies, Matthew 5:43-48

It is time for humanity to grow up and come out of our denials and fears.

I agree with you a whole lot. that was a response to those who argued that such and such is not sin - as if that mattered. (see post #9)

The vast majority of people do admit they are sinners. Those who start arguing that sin does not exist or does not apply here are basically denying that they are sinners though they might not admit it.

I do not believe that the bible makes the case that those who are not called are forgiven. Those who are in active rebellion and continue to sin without faith are not forgiven. They might be forgiven at a later time and it is debatable if that forgiveness can occur after death but here and now they are not forgiven even though God does love them and want them to be saved.

 

[Dr.Who]

Jesus did take upon Himself our sin but salvation requires that you accept it. It requires an act on our part.

To throw a money wrench in here...

Should we still call that an "act" on our part if the act is motivated by God himself?

First God calls one then that one demonstrates faith and then that one is forgiven. Yet somehow the fact that all the elect are first called does not diminish personal responsibility?

 

[Dr.Who]

Yes. What about those who are NOT believers? They are not asking God for salvation...they do not believe God exists. If one does not believe God exists, how is it God will give them salvation?

Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So, obviously those who do not believe in the Son of Man, don't get to the Father.

One moment after death they will then believe in God. (this word believe is tricky because it means more than intellectual understanding in the existence of God)) Demons believe but they do not have faith love or trust. Can this unbeliever who now knows God exist form faith love or trust after death? Will they be forgiven at that late time is the question? Orthodox Christianity says that forgiveness is no longer available after death but IMO orthodoxy has not sufficiently proven that that is the case. Neither has it been proven to me that after death forgiveness is available either.