ISLAM is EVIL !

[jb_1430]

My evidence is that I know Muslims who denounce terrorism and live good lives. Therefore, Islam is only evil if interpreted as such. The fact that these Muslims exist proves that.

As for personal attacks, I always thought calling me a limey brit and telling me to **** off was classed as one.

????? Ive not made any comments regarding "Muslims". Ive clearly stated that my comments regarding Islam, refer to the doctrine.
I guess while I might view the doctrine of Mein kamph as evil, you would view it indifferently and defend it against such a label, unless some hitler come along to apply it.
And I made the refered to attack above because it was all I had to refute your assertions of the outcome of some hypothetical situation. Other than pointing to WWI+II, there really isnt anything I can offer to counter your baseless speculation about hypothetical events.
ON THE OTHER HAND, the nature of Islam is evidenced in the religious texts and an abundance of Islamic writings on the topic. I dont have any need to resort to personal attacks because there is an abundance of evidence I can offer. The lack of evidence is why the attacks are coming on the other side of the debate. MARK

 

[jb_1430]

Way to ignore the question.

However, why is it that those who do not follow the literal meaning of the word - as you've admitted, the majority of Muslims - are wrong and Islam is "evil"?

Never said the majority of Muslims are wrong. Stupid question based upon a false premise. Thats why I didnt answer. MARK

 

[vyo476]

Do you have anything OTHER than your desparate need to believe that Islam is peace to support this assertion?

Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia 1993-1999:

Jihad is of various kinds, with one’s self, one's wealth, by making dua, by teaching and guiding, by helping to do good in any way. The greatest form of jihad is jihad with one’s self (i.e., going oneself and fighting), followed by jihad with one's wealth, jihad by speaking out and guiding others. Dawah is also part of jihad. But going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form.

Al-Hajj Talib 'Abdur-Rashid, imam of the Mosque of Islamic Brotherhood in Harlem, NY:

Personal Jihad: This is the most important form. This type of jihad, called the Jihadun-Nafs, is the intimate struggle to purify one's soul of evil influences -- both subtle and overt. It is the struggle to cleanse one's spirit of sin. Putting "Allah ahead of our loved ones, our wealth, our worldly ambitions and our own lives." Resisting pressure of parents, peers and society; strive against "the rejecters of faith..." (Qur'an 25:52) "...strive and struggle to live as true Muslims..." "Striving for righteous deeds."Spreading the message of Islam. "The (true) believers are only those who believe in Allah and his messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their selves for the cause of Allah. Such are the truthful." (49:15)

Verbal Jihad: To strive for justice through words and non-violent actions. Muhammad encouraged Muslims to demand justice in the name of Allah. When asked: "'What kind of jihad is better?' Muhammad replied, 'A word of truth in front of an oppressive ruler(Nisai). According to M. Amir Ali, Jihad explained

The life of the Prophet Muhammad was full of striving to gain the freedom to inform and convey the message of Islam. During his stay in Makkah [Mecca] he used non-violent methods and after the establishment of his government in Madinah [Medina], by the permission of Allah, he used armed struggle against his enemies whenever he found it inevitable.

Physical Jihad: This relates to the use of physical force in defense of Muslims against oppression and transgression by the enemies of Allah, Islam and Muslims. Allah commands that Muslims lead peaceful lives and not transgress against anyone. If they are persecuted and oppressed, the Qur'an recommends that they migrate to a more peaceful and tolerant land: "Lo! Those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape persecution) and strive (Jahadu) in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah's mercy..." (2:218). If relocation is not possible, then Allah also requires Muslims to defend themselves against oppression by "fighting against those who fight against us." 2 The Qur'an states: "To those against whom war is made, permission is given [to defend themselves], because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory." (22:39)

Abu Zakaria Mohiuddin Yahya Ibn Sharaf al-Nawawi, a well-respected Muslim author on hadith:

"One of the collective duties of the community as a whole (fard kifaya) is to lodge a valid protest, to solve problems of religion, to have knowledge of Divine Law, to command what is right and forbid wrong conduct".

So there you have it - a group of Muslim scholars who seem to think that jihad is, or at least can be, a peaceful struggle.

And here's a Qu'ran quote for you, the one that is at the heart of the Liberal Islam movement:

Permission to fight is given only to those who have been oppressed... who have been driven from their homes for saying,'God is our Lord'" (22:39)

 

[vyo476]

Never said the majority of Muslims are wrong. Stupid question based upon a false premise. Thats why I didnt answer. MARK

So if the majority of Muslims aren't wrong, then Islam really is peaceful? And by proxy, not evil? You're contradicting yourself.

 

[jb_1430]

Abd al-Aziz ibn Abd Allah ibn Baaz, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia 1993-1999:

The greatest form of jihad is jihad with one’s self (i.e., going oneself and fighting)...

Your hopeless. You cant even comprehend what the man is saying. The Mufti is confirming my views. MARK

 

[vyo476]

Your hopeless. You cant even comprehend what the man is saying. The Mufti is confirming my views. MARK

I'm so glad you caught that. There was a slight controversy surrounding the Mufti in the mid-90s. Seems some people thought he'd declared the idea of the Earth being round to be heresy. It turns out he didn't though.

He just said the Earth doesn't rotate, is all.

As far as its rotation, then I have denied it and explained the evidences denying it. However, I did not declare kufr upon the one who upholds it. I only declared kufr upon the one who says that the sun is stationary and does not run on a course because this statement collides with the clarity of the Noble Qur’an and the pure authentic Sunnah which both prove that the sun and the moon both run on a course…

Extreme orthodoxy and attentiveness to the opinions of people that go back centuries. The Mufti was a man living in the dark ages. But I'm sure his views on jihad are the most relevant of those presented because he had a higher title - or simply because he seems to agree with you.

You sprung that trap rather nicely, thank you.

 

[jb_1430]

????? WTF? You presented evidence that directly confirms what Ive been arguing for three days and you some how think Ive been trapped???
He was the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia until 2000. THE HIGHEST Islamic authority in the birth place of Islam. "The greatest form of jihad is" FIGHTING. Not some inner struggle bull shiite you guys have been spewing but " going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form". "Out" isnt a metaphor for within.
You and a couple others here are a joke and still have convinced yourselves youve proven me wrong because you are actually SOOOO impressed with yourselves that you know better than the GRAND FREAKIN MUFTI of Saudi Arabia.....un freakin believable. Yeah..LOLOLOLO!!!! I fell right into that trap. I kind of thought I was shooting fish trapped in a barrel. MARK

I'm so glad you caught that. There was a slight controversy surrounding the Mufti in the mid-90s. Seems some people thought he'd declared the idea of the Earth being round to be heresy. It turns out he didn't though.

He just said the Earth doesn't rotate, is all.



Extreme orthodoxy and attentiveness to the opinions of people that go back centuries. The Mufti was a man living in the dark ages. But I'm sure his views on jihad are the most relevant of those presented because he had a higher title - or simply because he seems to agree with you.

You sprung that trap rather nicely, thank you.

 

[vyo476]

Check out this article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070522/ap_on_re_us/poll_muslim_americans

1 in 4 young Muslim Americans seem to think that suicide attacks can be justified. While at first glance this figure seems amazingly high, if we're to say that violent jihad is the true word of Islam, why do 3 in 4 say those attacks aren't justified?

Here's a fun quote:

"We have crazies just like other faiths have them," said Eide Alawan, who directs interfaith outreach at the Islamic Center of America in Dearborn, Mich., one of the nation's largest mosques. He said killing innocent people contradicts Islam.

_Six in 10 said they are concerned about a rise in Islamic extremism in the U.S., while three in four expressed similar worries about extremism around the world.

So much for palerider's "silence implies consent" theory.

 

[vyo476]

He was the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia until 2000. THE HIGHEST Islamic authority in the birth place of Islam. "The greatest form of jihad is" FIGHTING. Not some inner struggle bull shiite you guys have been spewing but " going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form". "Out" isnt a metaphor for within.

And right now you have the Catholic Pope talking about how native South Americans had "silently longed" for Christianity when it was violently forced on them by Spanish conquistadors. I suppose he's right too?

A position of authority does not necessarily make him right; his other views and strict adherence to archaic tenets of Islam not widely held anymore reveal that he is out of touch with the modern view of Islam taken by modern Muslims. In short, he was an ultra-conservative nut who hadn't realized the Middle Ages had ended and you were caught agreeing with him. That was the trap. You fell into it.

You and a couple others here are a joke and still have convinced yourselves youve proven me wrong because you are actually SOOOO impressed with yourselves that you know better than the GRAND FREAKIN MUFTI of Saudi Arabia.....

Actually, I think that the Muslim people know better than, as you put it, the "GRAND FREAKIN MUFTI" of Saudi Arabia. That'd be why they aren't going "out" and fighting in the name of Allah.

 

[jb_1430]

And right now you have the Catholic Pope talking about how native South Americans had "silently longed" for Christianity when it was violently forced on them by Spanish conquistadors. I suppose he's right too?

He is expressing an opinion that has nothing to do with Christian doctrine. What possible point are you trying to make? If the Pope were to interpret Christian doctrine, I certainly wouldnt argue that he is incorrect according to Catholocism, like you do regarding the Mufti of Saudi Arabia.

A position of authority does not necessarily make him right; his other views and strict adherence to archaic tenets of Islam not widely held anymore reveal that he is out of touch with the modern view of Islam taken by modern Muslims. In short, he was an ultra-conservative nut who hadn't realized the Middle Ages had ended and you were caught agreeing with him. That was the trap. You fell into it.

Islam has a tendency to trap those who follow the literal word, in the middle ages. Thats the nature of Islam (TEXT! TEXT! TEXT!)!!!!!! Not some trap I fell into. And in the Arabian Peninsula he is considered mainstream. Not fundamentalist enough for the "ultra-conservative"s in Saudi. MARK

 

[jb_1430]

And here's a Qu'ran quote for you, the one that is at the heart of the Liberal Islam movement:

Quote:
Permission to fight is given only to those who have been oppressed... who have been driven from their homes for saying,'God is our Lord'" (22:39)

Sad that at the heart of the liberal Islam movement is a fabrication. Below are the three most widely used, English translations. While the Muslim apologist insert words into the Koran to change its meaning, they probably, simultaneosly argue that the extremist are perverting the religion. The insertion of the word "only" is a pretty lame attempt when there are so many other situations where muslims are commanded to fight in the Koran.

MARK

022.039
YUSUFALI: To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-
PICKTHAL: Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory;
SHAKIR: Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/022.qmt.html

 

[vyo476]

Sad that at the heart of the liberal Islam movement is a fabrication. Below are the three most widely used, English translations. While the Muslim apologist insert words into the Koran to change its meaning, they probably, simultaneosly argue that the extremist are perverting the religion. The insertion of the word "only" is a pretty lame attempt when there are so many other situations where muslims are commanded to fight in the Koran.

MARK

The inclusion of the word "only" is both a translator's prerogative (translations from Arabic to English are far from direct so saying they "inserted" a word that wasn't there is ridiculous) and a religious interpretation. The passage, no matter how you look at it, was meant to say, "This is why we fight." The "only" doesn't really change that.

A blind adherence to out-of-date passages used to justify violence not supported by the majority of the Islamic community is a perversion of the religion, if you ask me.

 

[jb_1430]

The inclusion of the word "only" is both a translator's prerogative (translations from Arabic to English are far from direct so saying they "inserted" a word that wasn't there is ridiculous) and a religious interpretation. The passage, no matter how you look at it, was meant to say, "This is why we fight." The "only" doesn't really change that.

You dont understand. Its not a translation, its a fabrication. You can check ANY translation of the Koran and you wont find the word only. And it COMPLETELY changes the meaning from this as one of the multitude of reasons for Muslims to fight expressed in the Koran and Haddiths to the ONLY reason that is permissable. It changes it from reality to this fantasy world you try to create for your self. MARK

 

[vyo476]

The inclusion of the word "only" is both a translator's prerogative (translations from Arabic to English are far from direct so saying they "inserted" a word that wasn't there is ridiculous) and a religious interpretation. The passage, no matter how you look at it, was meant to say, "This is why we fight." The "only" doesn't really change that.

QUOTE]

You dont understand. Its not a translation, its a fabrication. You can check ANY translation of the Koran and you wont find the word only. And it COMPLETELY changes the meaning from this as one of the multitude of reasons for Muslims to fight expressed in the Koran and Haddiths to the ONLY reason that is permissable. It changes it from reality to this fantasy world you try to create for your self. MARK

You will find that there are no other "reasons" enumerated. The idea that the passages mean "Kill the infidels because they are infidels" is just another interpretation.

Muslims follow Islam - that is what makes them Muslims. Most Muslims are peaceable people, yet they still follow Islam. The possibility of a peaceful Islam is the reality and the idea that the religion is "evil" is the fantasy world.

 

[jb_1430]

The possibility of a peaceful Islam is the reality

Would seem you've been arguing for three days about the reality of peaceful Islam. I see now you were just speaking of some hoped for possibility in the future. Sheesh. MARK