ISLAM is EVIL !

[jb_1430]

OK, YES OR NO ANSWERS FROM ALL OF YOU.

A religion is only evil if the people who believe in it manipulate its scriptures to commit evil deeds. Those who live a good life (i.e. not a terrorist) are therefore not evil, and the religion they follow therefore is not evil either, because they have interpreted it differently. Agreed?

NO. MARK

 

[jb_1430]

Palerider and jb highlight various violent aspects of the Muslim holy texts that are followed to the letter by a few extremists. In their eyes these extremists are the only "good Muslims."

Ive never stated any such thing. Perhaps, your brain as well, inserts into my comments the word "only". MARK

 

[9sublime]

NO. MARK

Well tell me whats wrong with that statement.

 

[ArmChair General]

How about the first one-

"What is the next (in goodness)? He replied,
"To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

You'r interpretation is biased and shows ignorance. Jihad does not mean 'religious fighting', Jihad can imply striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam, and fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.

You do realize that depending on what sect of Islam you belong to, Jihad has different meanings right?

And from the Koran-

Quote:
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

From the New Testament:

Mathew 10:34
"Do not think that I (Jesus) came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Yes, and the verses from the haddiths demonstrate the form that the "struggle" most often takes. And Ive read all the haddiths. Milestones, 4th chapter discusses the rules of jihad.

Reading them and understanding them are entirely different. Its obvious you don't understand.

Quote:
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_li.../chapter_4.asp
In this respect, the people with whom there were treaties were divided into three categories: The first, those who broke the treaty and did not fulfill its terms. He was ordered to fight against them; he fought with them and was victorious. The second were those with whom the treaty was made for a stated term; they had not broken this treaty nor helped anyone against the Prophet - peace be on him - Concerning them, God ordered that these treaties be completed to their full term. The third kind were those with whom there was neither a treaty nor were they fighting against the Prophet-peace be on him-, or those with whom no term of expiration was stated. Concerning these, it was commanded that they be given four months' notice of expiration, at the end of which they should be considered open enemies and fought with.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_li.../chapter_4.asp

Continue Reading:

Thus, those who broke the treaty were fought against, and those who did not have any treaty or had an indeterminate period of expiration were given four months period of grace, and terms were kept with those with whom the treaty was due to expire. All the latter people embraced Islam even before the term expired, and the non-Muslims of the state paid Jizyah. Thus, after the revelation of the chapter 'Bratt', the unbelievers were of three kinds: adversaries in war, people with treaties, and Dhimmies. The people with treaties eventually became Muslims, so there were only two kinds left: people at war and Dhimmies. The people at war were always afraid of him. Now the people of the whole world were of three kinds: One, the Muslims who believed in him; two, those with whom he had peace and three, the opponents who kept fighting him. As far as the hypocrites were concerned, God commanded the Prophet -peace be on him -to accept their appearances and leave their intentions to God, and carry on Jihaad against them by argument and persuasion. He was commanded not to pray at their funerals nor to pray at their graves, nor should he ask forgiveness from God for them, as their affair was with God. So this was the practice of the Prophet-peace be on him- concerning his enemies among the non-believers and the hypocrites. '


***

And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight against you and do not transgress bounds [in this fighting]. God does not love the transgressors. Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out [of the place] from which they drove you out and [remember] persecution is worse than carnage. But do not initiate war with them near the Holy Kabah unless they attack you there. But if they attack you, put them to the sword [without any hesitation]. Thus shall such disbelievers be rewarded. However, if they desist [from this disbelief], Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Keep fighting against them, until persecution does not remain and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. But if they mend their ways, then [you should know that] an offensive is only allowed against the evil-doers. A sacred month for a sacred month; [similarly] other sacred things too are subject to retaliation. So if any one transgresses against you, you should also pay back in equal coins. Have fear of Allah and [keep in mind that] Allah is with those who remain within the bounds [stipulated by religion].

—Qur'an, 4:75-76

You do seem pretty secure in your state of denial. I doubt I could show you anything to convince you otherwise.

You seem pretty uneducated on this subject.

 

[jb_1430]

Well tell me whats wrong with that statement.

A religion is ALSO evil if the people who believe in it strictly adhere to scriptures to commit evil deeds. I would say, even more so. MARK

 

[Coyote]

You seem pretty uneducated on this subject.

 

[jb_1430]

You'r interpretation is biased and shows ignorance. Jihad does not mean 'religious fighting', Jihad can imply striving to live a moral and virtuous life, spreading and defending Islam, and fighting injustice and oppression, among other things.
You do realize that depending on what sect of Islam you belong to, Jihad has different meanings right?

Its not my interpretation. Those are quotes from the Haddiths. And the fact that 10-15% of the Muslims are shiite is of little comfort since they dont use vast armies to attack us and instead rely upon a hanful of particuliarly pious muslems to carry out their dirty work.

Reading them and understanding them are entirely different. Its obvious you don't understand.

Nothing you presented contradicts anything Ive said or posted. Just what is it you think I dont understand. MARK

 

[ArmChair General]

Its not my interpretation. Those are quotes from the Haddiths. And the fact that 10-15% of the Muslims are shiite is of little comfort since they dont use vast armies to attack us and instead rely upon a hanful of particuliarly pious muslems to carry out their dirty work.

What Vast Muslim Armies are you speaking of?

Nothing you presented contradicts anything Ive said or posted. Just what is it you think I dont understand.

Nothing you have posted supports your contention that The Religion of Islam is anything other than a Religion of peace.

 

[jb_1430]

What Vast Muslim Armies are you speaking of?

Nothing you have posted supports your contention that The Religion of Islam is anything other than a Religion of peace.

The plain and ordinary meaning of the words I have dupicated from the Koran and Haddiths clearly demonstrate my contention. Perhaps, the words I see as evil, you see as good. Many Muslims would agree with you.

"What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

MARK

 

[ArmChair General]

The plain and ordinary meaning of the words I have dupicated from the Koran and Haddiths clearly demonstrate my contention.

Sorry, but they don't.


First of all, the phrase in the parenthesis (religious fighting), is added in, its not actually in the text. Second of all, What is Allah's Cause? Have you ever bothered trying to figure that out?

Perhaps, the words I see as evil, you see as good. Many Muslims would agree with you.

What you've shown is biased interpretations taken out of context. I can do the same with Christianity or any other religion.

 

[jb_1430]

Sorry, but they don't.
First of all, the phrase in the parenthesis (religious fighting), is added in, its not actually in the text.

Yes, Im sure Mr Armchair you are sufficiently impressed with yourself to believe that you are qualified to translate the Arabic text better than Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
Below are some Haddith translations from Abdul Hamid Siddiqui, but Im sure he doesnt equal your expertise either, in your mind. I guess he makes the same mistakes and interprets jihad in the Haddiths as "fighting". Do you have any translations, other than your own, to support your assertions.... you know, something you could point to on the web? You can search on Abdul Hamid Siddiqui and Muhammad Muhsin Khan and see that they are the English translations used by most of the English speaking Muslims and Islamic teaching in the US University systems.

Second of all, What is Allah's Cause? Have you ever bothered trying to figure that out?

Sure, from the first Haddith I quoted-

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

And to quote Bin laden-

and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped,

"NO ONE BUT ALLAH"!! MARK


Translations by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui

Book 007, Number 3139:
Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying on the Day of Victory over Mecca: There is no Hijra (emigration) but only Jihad and good intention; and when you are called to battle, then go forth.

Book 019, Number 4347:
It has been narrated on the authority of Umar, who said: The properties abandoned by Banu Nadir were the ones which Allah bestowed upon His Apostle for which no expedition was undertaken either with cavalry or camelry. These properties were particularly meant for the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him). He would meet the annual expenditure of his family from the income thereof, and would spend what remained for purchasing horses and weapons as preparation for Jihad.

Book 020, Number 4597:
It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said on the day of the Conquest of Mecca: There is no Hijra now, but (only) Jihad (fighting for the cause of Islam)

Book 020, Number 4614:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jarir b. Abdullah who said: I saw that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was twisting the forelock of a horse with his fingers and he was saying: (A great) benefit. i. e. reward (for rearing them for Jihad) and spoils of war, has been tied to the forelocks of horses until the Day of Judgment.

Book 020, Number 4626:
I would not lag behind any expedition which is going to fight in the cause of Allah. But I do not have abundant means to provide them (the Mujahids) with riding beasts, nor have they (i. e. all of them) abundant means (to provide themselves with all the means of Jihad) so that they could he left behind. By the Being in Whose Hand is Mubammgls lac, I love to fight in the way of Allah and be killed, to fight and again be killed and to fight again and be killed.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

 

[jb_1430]

Or heres just the first search result on "Jihad" in the Sunan Abu-Dawud, translated by Prof. Ahmad Hasan. Or are your skills in translating Arabic superior to his as well?

Book 10, Number 1795:
Narrated As-Subayy ibn Ma'bad:
I was a Christian Bedouin; then I embraced Islam. I came to a man of my tribe, who was called Hudhaym ibn Thurmulah. I said to him. O brother, I am eager to wage war in the cause of Allah (i.e. jihad), and I find that both hajj and umrah are due from me. How can I combine them?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/

Or a different translation by `A'isha `Abdarahman at-Tarjumana and Ya`qub Johnson of Malik's Muwatta.

Book 21, Number 21.1.2:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah guarantees either the Garden or a safe return to his home with whatever he has obtained of reward or booty, for the one who does jihad in His way, if it is solely jihad and trust in his promise that brings him out of his house."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/

MARK

 

[ArmChair General]

Yes, Im sure Mr Armchair you are sufficiently impressed with yourself to believe that you are qualified to translate the Arabic text better than Muhammad Muhsin Khan. Below are some Haddith translations from Abdul Hamid Siddiqui, but Im sure he doesnt equal your expertise either, in your mind. I guess he makes the same mistakes and interprets jihad in the Haddiths as "fighting". Do you have any translations, other than your own, to support your assertions.... you know, something you could point to on the web? You can search on Abdul Hamid Siddiqui and Muhammad Muhsin Khan and see that they are the English translations used by most of the English speaking Muslims and Islamic teaching in the US University systems.

The hadith are prone to error and often misinterpreted. They are meant to be a secondary source of Islam with the primary source being the Quran.

Furthermore, many contemporary Muslims rejects the hadiths alltogethor claiming that they are man made and have no authority. They do make good historical reading however.

The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self. – Muhammad


From your own link:

There are many early hadith scholars and teachers to whom we are indebted for introducing the critical science of collecting and evaluating ahadeeth. These teachers each collected many different ahadeeth. They did not allow students to quote from their collections until the students had actually come to them and learnt from them directly.

Today, the situation is different. The collections of ahadeeth have for the most part stabilized, and with the advent of the printing press, the collections are easily mass-produced. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of ahadeeth. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam.

 

[jb_1430]

The hadith are prone to error and often misinterpreted. They are meant to be a secondary source of Islam with the primary source being the Quran.

Furthermore, many contemporary Muslims rejects the hadiths alltogethor claiming that they are man made and have no authority. They do make good historical reading however.

First you questioned MY interpretations, then when you realized they were haddiths, you questioned the translations. I provided 3 other translations of Haddiths that confirmed the same meaning. And now you want to argue that the Haddiths have no authority. Your intellectual dishonesty is noted. MARK

 

[ArmChair General]

First you questioned MY interpretations, then when you realized they were haddiths, you questioned the translations. I provided 3 other translations of Haddiths that confirmed the same meaning. And now you want to argue that the Haddiths have no authority. Your intellectual dishonesty is noted. MARK

Im not saying they have no authority, im saying that you are maliciously slandering the entirety of the religion of Islam, by taking a few Hadiths out of context and posting them. I think the readers here can gleam who is being intellectually dishonest.

You would do well to read some history rather than rely on ignorant and malicious radio and TV talk-show hosts. Islam forbids forced conversions. The oldest Christian communities in the world are all in Muslim countries. There have always been Christian and Jewish communities in the Muslim world. Muslims are commanded to treat Christians and Jews as they would treat themselves.

The way to combat the fanatics is to extend the hand of friendship to ordinary Muslims and to protest the slander and libel of Muslims and Islam, just as you should protest the slander and libel of Jews and other groups. Bigotry should have no place in our public dialogue, regardless of the target.