God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

[Dawkinsrocks]

Indeed

Free will is the get out of jail card that man invented to get god off the hook but it just doesn't stand up.

God made sin.

 

[Dr.Who]

We seem to have gotten way off the original, very simple, opening statement of this thread and gotten stuck in "Lucifer land".

Not much of a loss there.

The point is that if God controls all natural things (things in which free will is not the issue) then when the trailer park full of devoted born again Christians is wiped out in a tornado... it's God.

God doesn't control all things. It just might be that He could but Christianity does not claim that He does. Don't you, for example, control what you just wrote?

When an innocent little baby in a stroller slips out of its mothers hands and is run over by a bus... it's God.

The bible says that "time and chance" happen to all men. The obvious thing to draw from that is that chance is part of the universe.

So now we know that not only did you control what you wrote, i.e. people make their own choices, but that chance happens too. Those are two pretty large things that God does not control.

If a baby rapists or murderer is religiously "saved" after the act he can get into heaven because all sin is equal in God's eyes.

If by "saved" you mean repents and changes his ways, trusts God and God's plan for the universe, then yes both he and you deserve a second chance.

However the Rabi that devoted his whole life to the worship of God and spent his whole life doing all he could to promote goodness in his name. He can't get into heaven.

If by "devoted his whole life" you mean repent of his sins and trusts God and God's plan for the universe then he is also saved. But if you just mean that he did what he thought was good but did not trust God's plan then no he has rejected communion with God. The bible says that true Jews are saved.

 

[Dr.Who]

Indeed

Free will is the get out of jail card that man invented to get god off the hook but it just doesn't stand up.

God made sin.

There are two possibilities: man makes his own choices or man is a mechanism and merely moves through the universe like pool balls move on a table.

Even if man had no concept of God man would have developed an understanding that we do indeed make our own choices.

Free will was not invented after the fact, that is just the kind of craziness that causes people to accuse you of making ridiculous statements in your posts.

 

[numinus]

We seem to have gotten way off the original, very simple, opening statement of this thread and gotten stuck in "Lucifer land".

The point is that if God controls all natural things (things in which free will is not the issue) then when the trailer park full of devoted born again Christians is wiped out in a tornado... it's God.

When an innocent little baby in a stroller slips out of its mothers hands and is run over by a bus... it's God.

I do not know exactly why your panty is getting rolled up in a knot over this.

Everyone dies, one way or another. That is a fact of the human condition.

Same thing with the various breakdowns of differing religions. Christianity for example.

If a baby rapists or murderer is religiously "saved" after the act he can get into heaven because all sin is equal in God's eyes.

However the Rabi that devoted his whole life to the worship of God and spent his whole life doing all he could to promote goodness in his name. He can't get into heaven.

Again, this statment comes from a wrong premise. One cannot be saved through one's own efforts. Whatever he does, he is still bound within the human condition.

You are saved by grace. Takes zero effort on your part.

It does seem a very bazaar concept in many ways.

Bazaar?

Nothing bizarre about it. One cannot be saved through one's own powers alone. That is why god saved you -- unconditionally.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Hey Numinus - why are you shying away from my request fro you to apply your chain of causality argument to sin?

Where did sin comr from?

Clue: it didn't come from anywhere but I will indulge you as I like a good laugh.

BTW I don't know how many times I have to explain this but free will was made by god so he is responsible for free will (if you can overcome the illogicality of free will being made).

I know you christians keep banging on about free will as though it matrerialised out of nothing but it didn't and you would seem far less desperate and stupid if you took on this point rather than ploughing on regardless.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Let me help you with an example.

God made Eve with a brain that would be more receptive to the charms of a talking snake than to his own voice.

It is then a bit rich to blame Eve being for seduced by a talking snake especially when all he was saying was 'would you like to eat one of the apples that god made for you to eat?' and God made her brain and the talking snake.

Altough I have to say that I think I am starting to be persuaded by such an obviously true and reasonable biblical story.

 

[top gun]

[

God doesn't control all things. It just might be that He could but Christianity does not claim that He does. Don't you, for example, control what you just wrote?

But believers do believe God controls all natural things. And look at the ridiculous extremes. Church Psycho... The Reverend Hagee and others like Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson come up with natural disasters caused by God all the time.

If God is going after the sinners and the saved equally then there is no point.

And of course hat's true because it's all made up BS in the first place.

The bible says that "time and chance" happen to all men. The obvious thing to draw from that is that chance is part of the universe.

Well of course it does... it's a self serving document specifically meant to cover itself from any test and it's obvious disconnect to reality .

So now we know that not only did you control what you wrote, i.e. people make their own choices, but that chance happens too. Those are two pretty large things that God does not control.

What I can or cannot write has nothing to do with God killing off a trailer park full of devoted born again Christians or wiping out a church during a church service or killing off an innocent baby that has no sin.

There's no "free will" issue there whatsoever... except maybe "Gods" free will to just kill people... which seems pretty ridiculous by the way.

If by "saved" you mean repents and changes his ways, trusts God and God's plan for the universe, then yes both he and you deserve a second chance.

See that's just ridiculous. God let's the God fairing Rabi to hell and damnation for all eternity but gives the baby rapist murderer a welcoming into heaven because he said... Oh sorry.:eek

I'd give "God more credit than that. Being able to create all things it wouldn't be that vindictive & for lack of a better word... stupid. :

If by "devoted his whole life" you mean repent of his sins and trusts God and God's plan for the universe then he is also saved. But if you just mean that he did what he thought was good but did not trust God's plan then no he has rejected communion with God. The bible says that true Jews are saved.

Christians believe that only those who believe Jesus is the son of God go to heaven. Jews have to convert to that particular version of that one plan of the several different major "Gods" plans rolling around out there by multiple religions.

It's kinda like the Heaven Lotto by church choice instead of scratch off!

 

[top gun]

numinus;79870]I do not know exactly why your panty is getting rolled up in a knot over this.
Everyone dies, one way or another. That is a fact of the human condition.

I'm sure you're the expert on how rolled up panties up your butt feel but I'll answer anyway.

The fact we all die has nothing to do with anything. We all die with or without a belief in a "God"... or a belief in any particular sect of religion for that matter.

I mean seriously it's a pick and choose world. If I was a Hindu I'd believe I'd be coming back after death as something good (maybe an eagle) if I'd led a good life and something bad if I hadn't (maybe a cock roach).

On balance this seems just as reasonable as what you're pushing.

Again, this statment comes from a wrong premise. One cannot be saved through one's own efforts. Whatever he does, he is still bound within the human condition.

You are saved by grace. Takes zero effort on your part.

One has to "buy in" and ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus as the son of God the savior. That's effort if you take the time to really study the issue.

Seriously I could care less what someone believes. I think it's great whatever makes any individual feel better. Now when someone tries to portray faith as fact I'll point out that's obviously a totally unproven quantity. But just keep it in your own church and don't harass other people with it and I'm totally fine with it.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Hey Andy

Where are you getting all this information about what god does and doesn't do?

Have you got his phone number or something?

Hey Numinus

Where are you getting all this stuff about being saved by grace from?

Did you learn it engineering for idiots?

I think I get what you mean now when you claim to be an engineer

You engineer 'facts' and logical steps when there aren't any to support your ludicrous view that there is a god in heaven who saves us by grace.

 

[Dr.Who]

[

But believers do believe God controls all natural things. And look at the ridiculous extremes. Church Psycho... The Reverend Hagee and others like Jerry Falwell & Pat Robertson come up with natural disasters caused by God all the time.

I cannot speak for the thinking of the named people you listed but...

many believers think that God created the natural order through a number of principles and laws and then set it in motion only interfering occasionally in what they call miracles. In fact the founders of science called these rules the Laws of Nature and we are all surprised when the laws of nature are found to be other than what we expect them to be. Miracles are rare and occasional events demonstrating that God generally does not exercise control over the natural world.

If God is going after the sinners and the saved equally then there is no point.

"The rain falls equally on the just and the unjust." Which fits in very nicely with the idea that as stewards of the planet and our brothers keepers that we would share take care of and the natural resources of the planet individually as we see fit. In general the population of the planet is treated the same as all have been provided with a planet that offers blessings and challenges. It is up to us to make the best of it and to recognize our need for God in those challenges.

The entire book of Ecclesiastes addresses the question of whether or not there is or is not a point to existence when the rain falls equally on the just and the unjust. I suppose you skipped that book? If you did not read it then you are unqualified to make a statement about what Christianity (or other Abrahamic religions) says about the topic. If you did read it then what excuse you have for being completely uninformed on the topic and yet so critical?

And of course hat's true because it's all made up BS in the first place.

Well of course it does... it's a self serving document specifically meant to cover itself from any test and it's obvious disconnect to reality .

Youve got to be kidding. A recognition of time and chance is self serving?!! I get the idea that you will always complain about whatever the bible says because your complaints seemingly are not based on a response to the statements of the bible but a reflection of your rejection of it. First you make the statement that God controls all things, then to mean only the natural things, then decide that God not controlling all natural things must mean that the bible is self-serving. That is just ridiculous.

What I can or cannot write has nothing to do with God killing off a trailer park full of devoted born again Christians or wiping out a church during a church service or killing off an innocent baby that has no sin.

There's no "free will" issue there whatsoever... except maybe "Gods" free will to just kill people... which seems pretty ridiculous by the way.

You are right that this is not an issue of free will. Free will does not refer to the things that happen to people but to the ability they have to make choices. It would be illogical to try to apply the statement to that.

God does not cause every tornado that ever occurs on the planet - though he certainly could cause one if He had a desire to. Charles Darwin divided the actions of God into Primary (direct actions) and Secondary ( setting principles into motion). The obvious thing that believers and unbelievers alike should do would be to have some simple rules for when to ascribe an action to God - like don't claim God did a thing unless you have some reason for making the claim.

See that's just ridiculous. God let's the God fairing Rabi to hell and damnation for all eternity but gives the baby rapist murderer a welcoming into heaven because he said... Oh sorry.:eek

You were not reading were you?

If the rabbi were God fearing then he would know who God is and he would not be going to hell would he? And the baby rapist murderer if he were sorry for his rejection of God and the actions that resulted (repentant) then he would be equally God fearing and would be equally able to receive grace and communion with God (heaven).

I'd give "God more credit than that. Being able to create all things it wouldn't be that vindictive & for lack of a better word... stupid.

:


I would think that one might want to actually do some homework before deciding that the religious ideas of millions of smart and benevolent (as well as stupid and mean) people all over the planet is not based on anything that makes sense. Christians claim God to be loving yet you decide that he is vindictive. Perhaps you are mistaken and the rest of the people are on to something.

You could have done a simple internet search to see if heaven is awarded on the basis of vindictiveness. Or you could have just listened to the countless statements right here in which people said that heaven is not based on ones own actions.

Here is the simple internet search:

How to define heaven?
How to define heaven? Name: Meghan. City: New York. State: NY. Heaven in the Christian conception is an eternal state of communion with God for ...
www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/ResponseDetails.jhtml?...2590&itemno=701917&cont=2
More pages from haaretz.com


heaven definition | Dictionary.com
Definition of heaven at Dictionary.com with free audio pronunciation. ... An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss. Heaven God: Heaven help you! ...
dictionary.reference.com/browse/heaven
More pages from dictionary.reference.com

heaven: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com
heaven n. The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often ... Orthodox Church, heaven is understood as union (Theosis) and communion with the ...
www.answers.com/topic/heaven
More pages from answers.com


Heaven's - Definitions from Dictionary.com
Definitions of Heaven's at Dictionary.com. ... An eternal state of communion with God; everlasting bliss. Heaven God: Heaven help you! ...
dictionary.reference.com/browse/Heaven's
More pages from dictionary.reference.com


heaven - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Definition of heaven from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary with audio ... a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God3capitalized : god 14: a ...
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heaven
More pages from merriam-webster.com

Now if it is too complicated for you to actually read or just ask what heaven is and how to get there then perhaps you should remain silent. Nevermind, it has been explained many times and you exercise your free will in refusing to understand it.

Christians believe that only those who believe Jesus is the son of God go to heaven. Jews have to convert to that particular version of that one plan of the several different major "Gods" plans rolling around out there by multiple religions.

Ever heard of "Jews for Jesus"?

There is no need for Jews to convert. They just need to believe in the Christ that there very own religion teaches.


Did it escape you that all the first Christians were Jewish and continued to attend synagogue. Did you not notice that Jesus was Jewish, that there were heaven-bound people before, during, and after the time of Christ? Isn't it obvious that Abraham was Jewish and that he went to heaven before Christ?

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

The OP is that god is responsible for all the bad stuff and your guesswork that he made the rules and then just let everyone get on with it is just bizarre.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support that and it just clearly represents the wishful thinking of those who know that there is no real way out for god.

If you believe in God then you must accept that before he made lucipher and man etc there was no sin in the universe.

So what would be better? Not making lucipher and man etc in which case nobody would have missed anything as they would not have existed and there would be no sin?

Or making lucipher and man and all that resulted in sin so that a few people nearly die of boredom in heaven from which there is no escape whilst the other lucky guys roast in hell forever?

Sounds to me like if god existed he would have been a nicer god if he had not made lucipher and or mankind.

But then god is a monster responsible for all the bad stuff.

The b.a.s.t.a.r.d

 

[Dr.Who]

The OP is that god is responsible for all the bad stuff and your guesswork that he made the rules and then just let everyone get on with it is just bizarre.

Since you are the author of the OP you obviously have a handle on what the intent of it was.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support that and it just clearly represents the wishful thinking of those who know that there is no real way out for god.

Well now if you said that there were no absolute proof of this then you would be right. Of course by the standards of proof that some demand nothing can be known. Meanwhile I personally have enough evidence and enough proof. I then go on the state what my understanding of the world is. You are and have always been free to form your own world view - as you obviously do.

Meanwhile I have a pretty good grasp of what your world view is while you do a pretty good job of demonstrating that you do not understand Christianity. And despite the fact that you do not understand it well enough to form any meaningful criticism you like to do so ad nauseum.

If you believe in God then you must accept that before he made lucipher and man etc there was no sin in the universe.

Um, yea. Since sin is an action of mankind it obviously could not exist before men existed. Was there some point in stating something so obvious?

For the rest of this post I will take what you have written and re-write it as if you were more understanding.

So what would be better? Not making lucipher and man etc in which case nobody would have missed anything as they would not have existed and there would be no sin?

So what would be better? Not making Lucifer and man, etc. in which case nobody would have missed anything as they would not have existed and there would be no sin?

Or making lucipher and man and all that resulted in sin so that a few people nearly die of boredom in heaven from which there is no escape whilst the other lucky guys roast in hell forever?

Or making Lucifer and man and all that resulted from sin so that those who love God enjoy being with Him forever while perhaps those who are guilty of rejecting God are separated from Him? The guilty experience justice and the those who are sorry experience forgiveness. meanwhile God desires all to change their ways and has made plans for that and actively encourages people to be contrite.

Sounds to me like if god existed he would have been a nicer god if he had not made lucipher and or mankind.

We are pretty lucky that God has made a plan for us so that we can be forgiven when we turn from wrong to right.

But then god is a monster responsible for all the bad stuff.

The b.a.s.t.a.r.d

Since mankind is responsible for all sin we are fortunate to have such a loving God who has planned for our salvation.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

You should stop accusing me of not understanding christianity.

I know why you do this. It is to try to put your argument on some 'higher plain' but it justy sounds ridiculous.

What you are actually doing, as usual, is avoiding the point.

If God had not made the world and lucipher there would be no sin and no suffering and nobody would have missed out because the even the concept of somebody would not exist.

If you think it is better that god makes hell rather than just does nothing you are sick.

You see in my atheist world I think burning people for the way they think is very bad.

But then you are American and republican so you are probably a big fan of burning people who are different.

Hey, maybe that is why retards in the US think it is god's country.

Because both like inflicting unnecessary suffering on those who are different.

 

[Dr.Who]

You should stop accusing me of not understanding christianity.

It is not so much an accusation as a statement of fact. What I do need to do is to start saying it in a way that will help you to understand what you don't understand. I apologise for not being winsome.

I know why you do this. It is to try to put your argument on some 'higher plain' but it justy sounds ridiculous. What you are actually doing, as usual, is avoiding the point.

I do it to show you and others that your criticisms are pointless since you don't understand what you are talking about. What you say in the remainder of this post is an additional example.

If God had not made the world and lucipher there would be no sin and no suffering and nobody would have missed out because the even the concept of somebody would not exist.

That is pretty close to true. Did you forget that God made us to provide Himself with companionship. If He had not made us He would have suffered. And if He thought of making us then did not the concept of us would have existed.

If you think it is better that god makes hell rather than just does nothing you are sick.

We have told you before that God is spirit and heaven and hell were spiritual places, right? Just a few posts ago I told you that the definition of heaven is the separation from God. Since it is people who choose to be either with God or separated from God then it is the people who choose to either be in communion (heaven) with God or in separation (hell) from God. It is not God who made these but the people who choose communion or separation.

It is better that God makes people who can choose to be in communion with Him than either for God to have made no one or for god to make people with no ability to make that choice.

You see in my atheist world I think burning people for the way they think is very bad.

Just as hell is a spiritual place it therefore does not have physical qualities like burning. When hell is described as burning it is a metaphor (we know you know what a metaphor is since you went on about allegories some time back but somehow knowing what a metaphor is does not mean that one knows when how to recognize one - even if one has been told several times). The metaphor is that since being burned is bad therefore being separated from God must be bad too. With free will you can decide to be in communion with God or not, so obviously those who reject God experience the bad consequences all on their own.

Interestingly enough burning is used as a metaphor elsewhere in the bible for purification. Could it be that those in hell will be purified and then later ready for heaven? If it is then it would still be true that it is better to get into to heaven like one escaping a burning house than like one who was burned up in the house.

But then you are American and republican so you are probably a big fan of burning people who are different. Hey, maybe that is why retards in the US think it is god's country.

If that is humor then it is funny. If not then that is a gross stereotype.

Because both like inflicting unnecessary suffering on those who are different.

The suffering of those who are separated from God is entirely their own doing and God specifically says that it is not His will that they suffer. Because He does not want people to suffer He has made a plan for them to escape the suffering. It is available to all people regardless of how smart or capable they are. They need only reverse the initial act of sin (that was a mistrust of god) by trusting Him again with faith which allows God to forgive them in Grace.

As one who understands Christianity so well how is it that you missed the parts of the bible that explained why God created man? How do you not understand free will, which doesn't even require an understanding of the bible to get? How did you miss that thinking something is not the same as faith and that salvation is based completely on faith and not on thinking? How did you miss the verses that describe how God does not want us to be separated from Him? It is not like the separation from God is not the main theme of the bible after all. There are 66 books in most bibles and every single one of them describes the main theme with a different emphasis so that anyone can relate to at least one of them. If a person fails to at least understand one of them then they must be trying.

You could read the bible more than just twice or just once with an open mind. You could read even just one book of it a few times. You could attend when people here on the net say things. You could listen to the voice of God who explains things to those who cannot read them. You could observe the natural world and deduce that God exists and loves you. Or you could just ask honest and genuine questions which I have yet to see you do.

Since you bring up the mentally retarded we could note that there are people who are mentally retarded who understand the message of the bible. Yet you do not. Not because you are stupid but because you are willfull.

There are some who cannot read the bible. Yet with very little of the message explained to them they have faith. But this is not your excuse because with the internet at your disposal you can read thousands of versions of the bible and commentaries. You choose to see in the written word what is not there and miss what is there for all who want to see it.

You could ignore Christianity as most people do. Instead you are obviously driven to interact with Christians and discuss Christianity constantly. Have you considered the possibility that God has placed a hunger in you to search for Him?

 

[top gun]

Dr.Who;80062]

I cannot speak for the thinking of the named people you listed but...

many believers think that God created the natural order through a number of principles and laws and then set it in motion only interfering occasionally in what they call miracles. In fact the founders of science called these rules the Laws of Nature and we are all surprised when the laws of nature are found to be other than what we expect them to be. Miracles are rare and occasional events demonstrating that God generally does not exercise control over the natural world.

Also called no accountability for a made up premis...

"The rain falls equally on the just and the unjust."

Well then we are in half agreement. Every Evangelical that gets up and spews that BS about God going after a certain group is a (as to probably be expected) liar.

Youve got to be kidding. A recognition of time and chance is self serving?!! I get the idea that you will always complain about whatever the bible says because your complaints seemingly are not based on a response to the statements of the bible but a reflection of your rejection of it. First you make the statement that God controls all things, then to mean only the natural things, then decide that God not controlling all natural things must mean that the bible is self-serving. That is just ridiculous.

My friend... I can argue the credibility of the Bible with you up, down, backward or sideways. I simply point to the flaw as you bring it to me. It's a "FAITH" document (not proof) written by men none of which were even close to being alive in Jesus time. Add to that the Catholic Church had hundreds of other "holy" writings of the time that it picked and choose from to make the book turn out as it wanted...

You are right that this is not an issue of free will. Free will does not refer to the things that happen to people but to the ability they have to make choices. It would be illogical to try to apply the statement to that.

God does not cause every tornado that ever occurs on the planet - though he certainly could cause one if He had a desire to. Charles Darwin divided the actions of God into Primary (direct actions) and Secondary ( setting principles into motion). The obvious thing that believers and unbelievers alike should do would be to have some simple rules for when to ascribe an action to God - like don't claim God did a thing unless you have some reason for making the claim.

I'd say if I were in the Holy Roller crowd and felt only my particular sect was always correct I'd look at it that way too. But it's still not true nor provable.

You were not reading were you?

If the rabbi were God fearing then he would know who God is and he would not be going to hell would he? And the baby rapist murderer if he were sorry for his rejection of God and the actions that resulted (repentant) then he would be equally God fearing and would be equally able to receive grace and communion with God (heaven).

Are you trying to say that people can get into heaven by worshiping a God and not accepting Jesus Christ? Because if true that my be the Christian world's best kept secret & very good news to a whole lot of people.

I respect the fact you're invested in this particular theology. We could realistically go back and forth forever because one cannot prove a negative nor prove that someone's faith in the supernatural is a false believe... that's why it's called supernatural.

Still there's no proof of any of this and a whole lot of contradiction and alternatives if you study all world religions of all times. Add to that the many changes included that form today's most popular religions...

I remain in the Christian/agnostic camp and look forward to any proof.