God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

[Mare Tranquillity]

You misunderstand both the story and the concept of "turning the other cheek."

Me.

Every time Christians argue about things they always revert to you "misunderstand both the story and the concept". That's why there are more than 3000 sects of Christians today all claiming to have God's Truth when in fact they don't get along well enough to pray together in the same building.

Got proof of your saving? Lots of people believe lots of things, doesn't mean they're true.

 

[Dr.Who]

I have to admit that I don't buy this either. The Creator of the Universe demands blood payment from an innocent for the sins of the (supposedly guilty) rest of us. Sounds like something a bunch of nomadic sheepherders would do.

It is something that a bunch of of nomadic sheepherders would do. Of course nomadic sheepherders have been doing a lot of things that I find admirable - like eating and breathing and reproducing and loving their children.

Substitutionary sacrifice has been going on since the Garden of Eden. It has always been the same. Man sins and justice demands a payment. God provides the payment so man does not have to. Now if you want to make the payment yourself then that is your choice - it is your life not mine. But to me I much prefer a substitute. I think God's plan is better.

So which part would you expect a creator to change? Should God not be just and demand payment from those who have corrupted an entire perfect universe through their sin? Should God demand a penalty that does not recognize the Holy nature of God? That would be wrong too. Rightness requires that a penalty be paid. Rightness requires that the penalty be the a separation of the guilty from the Holy (death).

God balances perfectly the concepts of justice, holiness, and mercy. It is mercy that requires that God find a way for there to be a substitute. A substitute that is offered to those who logically undue the sin of rejecting God and his universe and plan. Since the sin was first to disbelieve that god knew what he was doing when He created the world the solution is to believe and trust that God is God and knows what He is doing. Everyone who repents deserves a second chance (or a third or fourth...)

 

[Dr.Who]

Every time Christians argue about things they always revert to you "misunderstand both the story and the concept". That's why there are more than 3000 sects of Christians today all claiming to have God's Truth when in fact they don't get along well enough to pray together in the same building.

Got proof of your saving? Lots of people believe lots of things, doesn't mean they're true.

There are many sects because people are sinful and they like to argue with each other. They like to distort things for their own purposes.

I have subjective proof. It is proof to me. I trust my own experiences and the logically fit with what is in the bible. They are either true of I am crazy. But if I am crazy then my craziness is logical. You disagree, though you have not had my experiences and you approach the bible with some pretty large blinders that we can all see clearly.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It is something that a bunch of of nomadic sheepherders would do. Of course nomadic sheepherders have been doing a lot of things that I find admirable - like eating and breathing and reproducing and loving their children.

Substitutionary sacrifice has been going on since the Garden of Eden. It has always been the same. Man sins and justice demands a payment. God provides the payment so man does not have to. Now if you want to make the payment yourself then that is your choice - it is your life not mine. But to me I much prefer a substitute. I think God's plan is better.

So which part would you expect a creator to change? Should God not be just and demand payment from those who have corrupted an entire perfect universe through their sin? Should God demand a penalty that does not recognize the Holy nature of God? That would be wrong too. Rightness requires that a penalty be paid. Rightness requires that the penalty be the a separation of the guilty from the Holy (death).

God balances perfectly the concepts of justice, holiness, and mercy. It is mercy that requires that God find a way for there to be a substitute. A substitute that is offered to those who logically undue the sin of rejecting God and his universe and plan. Since the sin was first to disbelieve that god knew what he was doing when He created the world the solution is to believe and trust that God is God and knows what He is doing. Everyone who repents deserves a second chance (or a third or fourth...)

There is no reason why the God who balances perfectly the concepts of justice, holiness, and mercy has to demand blood payment. He could simply have stated in a pretty loud voice (in all languages), "I forgive all of you!" This is God for God's sake, torture, murder, and suffering? For what? He has a deep need to be appeased with blood? Punishing an innocent for the guilty? The story is so contradictorily unbelievable that it's... unbelievable. It's like you have no faith in the goodness of God, that you'll believe any kind of blasphemy about Him without question. What about all that other stuff in the Bible, do you believe He ordered all that too? Genocide, slavery, child molesting, selling children, and the taking of women as spoils of war?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

There are many sects because people are sinful and they like to argue with each other. They like to distort things for their own purposes.

I have subjective proof. It is proof to me. I trust my own experiences and the logically fit with what is in the bible. They are either true of I am crazy. But if I am crazy then my craziness is logical. You disagree, though you have not had my experiences and you approach the bible with some pretty large blinders that we can all see clearly.

Yep, blinders, I should take them off and begin believing God is the monster talked about in the Old Testament. If your beliefs make you feel better, then you're welcome to them. I've little use for the practice of Christianity, so few Christians seem to have any investment in doing what Jesus taught. It's always seemed strange that people would profess to believe the teachings of someone and then ignore them completely or even argue against them by saying those teachings don't work in real life. Oh, but that's right, I don't understand the concept of "turning the other cheek", do I? Do you suppose that I've got "love God" and "love others as yourself" wrong too?

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Dr Who, why is it so hard for you to understand that God brought sin into the world?

 

[Dr.Who]

There is no reason why the God who balances perfectly the concepts of justice, holiness, and mercy has to demand blood payment. He could simply have stated in a pretty loud voice (in all languages), "I forgive all of you!" This is God for God's sake, torture, murder, and suffering? For what? He has a deep need to be appeased with blood? Punishing an innocent for the guilty? The story is so contradictorily unbelievable that it's... unbelievable. It's like you have no faith in the goodness of God, that you'll believe any kind of blasphemy about Him without question. What about all that other stuff in the Bible, do you believe He ordered all that too? Genocide, slavery, child molesting, selling children, and the taking of women as spoils of war?

You seem to claim more knowledge about how the world ought to be run than God does. At the same time you completely distort the bible to back up your view that you know better than God.

No god could not have simply stated "I forgive you" because justice would not have been served, only mercy. Justice demands that only those who are righteous can be forgiven.

Second chances are given to those who are repentant not those those who are still living in their sin. If your wife had an affair (assuming that you are not in favor of adultery) and she came to you asking for forgiveness but stated that what she thought what she did was right and she would do it again she would not deserve your forgiveness. She has to desire to turn from her wrong ways. She has to have faith in your concept of fidelity and agree that your way is the right way.

 

[Dr.Who]

Yep, blinders, I should take them off and begin believing God is the monster talked about in the Old Testament. If your beliefs make you feel better, then you're welcome to them. I've little use for the practice of Christianity, so few Christians seem to have any investment in doing what Jesus taught. It's always seemed strange that people would profess to believe the teachings of someone and then ignore them completely or even argue against them by saying those teachings don't work in real life. Oh, but that's right, I don't understand the concept of "turning the other cheek", do I? Do you suppose that I've got "love God" and "love others as yourself" wrong too?

Just as you think you have it all figured out and that you know more about how things should work than God does so do many other people do the same thing.

Now where did I hear that it is human nature to think that ones own way is better than God's? Oh yea, the bible.

 

[Dr.Who]

Dr Who, why is it so hard for you to understand that God brought sin into the world?

Because I don't share you perversions of theology.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

So where did sin come from?

Did it just materialise out of thin air?

 

[numinus]

So where did sin come from?

Did it just materialise out of thin air?

It comes from free will, everytime you choose to do something against the divine imperative.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

You really are struggling aren't you.

God made free will as well as lucipher and everything that ensued from that.

So take your 'causation logic' and apply it to that process.

 

[Dr.Who]

So where did sin come from?

Did it just materialise out of thin air?

Numinus is right. Sin comes from the choices people make. Choose to do something wrong and it is sin. Choose to do something right and it is not. Man has creative abilities. We have the power to create our own thoughts and actions, i.e. sin, at times.

 

[Dr.Who]

You really are struggling aren't you.

God made free will as well as lucipher and everything that ensued from that.

So take your 'causation logic' and apply it to that process.

God made free will, lucifer, man and the world. We created some other things after that. That is what free will means. It means that we have the freedom to create things - thoughts, actions, inventions, ideas, etc. We even have the power to do and use those things for good or for bad. God said that we were stewards of the world and it is our responsibility to take care of it well or poorly.

Every thought you and I have is created by you and I. These thoughts do materialize out of thin air. They were not created by God but by you and I. The alternative is that our thoughts are do not arise from our own minds. That they either are pre-existing and pre-determined or that God creates them all.

You may choose to think you are a mechanism but I am a person. This is the logical conclusion of applying causation to thinking processes.

 

[top gun]

We seem to have gotten way off the original, very simple, opening statement of this thread and gotten stuck in "Lucifer land".

The point is that if God controls all natural things (things in which free will is not the issue) then when the trailer park full of devoted born again Christians is wiped out in a tornado... it's God.

When an innocent little baby in a stroller slips out of its mothers hands and is run over by a bus... it's God.

Same thing with the various breakdowns of differing religions. Christianity for example.

If a baby rapists or murderer is religiously "saved" after the act he can get into heaven because all sin is equal in God's eyes.

However the Rabi that devoted his whole life to the worship of God and spent his whole life doing all he could to promote goodness in his name. He can't get into heaven.

It does seem a very bazaar concept in many ways.