God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

The Bible actually says very little about homosexuality. I can't think of one instance in which Jesus even addressed the subject, can you?

Why is it that being gay has become such an issue among fundies today? It is a puzzle to me. It seems to me that a person's sexual orientation is his/her own business, after all. Why would I care whether someone else wanted to marry a member of his/her own gender? That doesn't affect me one way or the other.

People need to be free to be what they are, not what someone else thinks that they should be. Isn't allowing them to do that part of loving one's neighbor?
 
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Being free of charge doesn't make it relevant, now, does it?
If you're constipated it's relevant.

Is there any logical proof that is not phrased as an argument?????
2+3=5 therefore 3+2=5, logical and no argument.

If I need to explain simple concepts like 'proof' and 'arguments' to you, that is an experience worse than constipation.
No, of course not, that's why I said that your argument was not proof.

But the proof is there. You need only google 'ontology' and you would have all the proof required for the soul.
Oh yeah, here's what it says: "Ontology, The subject of ontology is the study of the categories of things that exist or may exist in some domain. The product of such a study, called an ontology, ..." The emphasis is mine. Because you study something doesn't mean that it exists. Once again you have provided no proof.

If it were defined that way, then the definition is WRONG. Ontology is NOT a science -- it is a philosophy. There is no educational institution that I know of that represents it as ontological sciences.
Well, I'm sure the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary got it wrong then. Philosophy isn't proof either.

Of course you did. You argued that homosexuality is also a manifestation of love, have you not?
One of the problems you have is that you ovethink things and your thinking gets fluffy. No, I never said that ANY kind of sex was a manifestation of love. You apparently whomped that one up all by yourself. Sexual orientation is an innate quality and the sex drive is hormonally powered, that's why you will lose sexual drive and potency as you age and your testosterone levels drop.

And if it is so, then it is covered by god's commandment of love, is that not how your absurd argument goes?

Therefore, introducing fecal matter to one's (and partner's) blood stream, hence seriously undermining both their immune systems is the logical and most probable consequence of the commandment of love. Do you follow?Hence -- love up someone's a$$.
Do you realize how silly you look attempting to make out that Jesus advocated anal sex? What's with this obsession? Does it get you hot to talk graphically about butt-surfing on the internet? Golly, Nums, you're gettin' way out on the edge here with your accusation about Jesus. It does remind me though that a porno movie was made about Jesus being gay and having sex with all the guys He traveled around with way back when. I always thought that was a pretty stupid kind of movie to make, but I don't know, you might have it in your collection the way you're talking about Jesus now. Does your wife know you are posting this way?

Haven't I already said that I base my opinions on facts and logic? And have I not presented only facts and logic as far as the catholic teaching is concerned?
You have said a lot of things, why in the last paragraph you went crazy about Jesus and gay sex. I don't know how you got that with logic and facts though. Nor do I know how you can be an apologist for the Pope's riches.

I have utterly no interest in your sex life to justify lying about it in the public domain.
Well you certainly make a lot of comments about something you have no interest in. My guess is that you don't want to admit your prurient interests, most Christians are taught from an early age to suppress and deny their sexual urges.

How about a masochist, hmmm? Does the commandment of love apply to a masochist -- to love others as themselves?
Clearly, that, in itself, is WRONG. Clearly, the imperative of christian love operates WITHIN the parameters of the natural law god prescribes for man.
Whoa! First it's gay sex and now you're accusing Jesus of promoting masochism? You are one sick puppy, Nums, does your wife know? She's in it with you, isn't she? High black boots, a riding crop, you naked on your hands and knees, ball-gag in your mouth, a$$ red from the crop hitting it... Does she wear a corset too, stockings and a garter belt? You have spent so much time fantasizing about my sex life and Jesus' sex life that I think it's only fair that we get to fantasize about yours. A dog collar, I bet she makes you wear a dog collar too, doesn't she? Does she make you paint her toenails too?
 
You wanted to edit the bible, remove the gospels from their context, reduce canon law to two vague principles -- simply because YOU WANT TO FORCE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT HOMO-EROTICISM NOT ONLY AS A MORAL GOOD BUT A DIVINE COMMANDMENT AS WELL -- against all facts and logic, no less.

Who exactly is lying, eh?

Why you are, Nums! Two vague principles? Jesus said 6 words, two commandments, and you think they are vague? Only you, Nums, only you could miss the elegant simplicity of Jesus' two profound commandments. I used to think that you were a fairly intelligent man--a bit obsessed with anal sex, but then a lot of men are--but of late you seem to have lost 40 IQ points.

LOVE GOD. Vague? Hello? Maybe Dr. Who could help you with the difficult parts. LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. Not love others LIKE yourself, Nums, it's not an either or situation like some similies. Again, perhaps Dr. Who could help you with the big words.
 
Why you are, Nums! Two vague principles? Jesus said 6 words, two commandments, and you think they are vague? Only you, Nums, only you could miss the elegant simplicity of Jesus' two profound commandments. I used to think that you were a fairly intelligent man--a bit obsessed with anal sex, but then a lot of men are--but of late you seem to have lost 40 IQ points.

LOVE GOD. Vague? Hello? Maybe Dr. Who could help you with the difficult parts. LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. Not love others LIKE yourself, Nums, it's not an either or situation like some similies. Again, perhaps Dr. Who could help you with the big words.

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Matthew 22:37-40 (New International Version)

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

But how do you love God? and how do you love your neighbor? The first tablet of stone tells you exactly how to love God and the second tablet of stone tells you exactly how to love your neighbor.




First tablet showing how we love God

1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
2 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

4. Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.



Second tablet showing how we love our neighbor

5. Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

6. You shall not murder.

7. Neither shall you commit adultery.

8. Neither shall you steal.

9. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.



It is very easy to say Love God or Love your neighbor, what does that mean really? and could it not mean one thing you to and another to me. Perhaps to you loving your neighbor means taking from someone who has a lot and giving it to your neighbor who has less, where to me it would mean do not steal from him or sleep with her husband.

The only thing that matters is what it means to God and that has been spelled out for us.
 
It is very easy to say Love God or Love your neighbor, what does that mean really? and could it not mean one thing you to and another to me. Perhaps to you loving your neighbor means taking from someone who has a lot and giving it to your neighbor who has less, where to me it would mean do not steal from him or sleep with her husband.

The only thing that matters is what it means to God and that has been spelled out for us.

I believe that Christ went on to expand on those statements, didn't he? Didn't he outline who our neighbors are (enemies included!) and who we must forgive, and so on?

I don't believe loving your neighbor means taking his stuff because you think someone else has less. As for sleeping with her husband, that's the last thing I'd want to do.:D

And then there are the statements about how, when you give to your fellow man (your own stuff, of course, not what you stole from someone else) you have "done it unto me."

The Ten Commandments are pretty much open to interpretation as well, perhaps even more so than the philosophy that Christ espoused.
 
I believe that Christ went on to expand on those statements, didn't he? Didn't he outline who our neighbors are (enemies included!) and who we must forgive, and so on?

I don't believe loving your neighbor means taking his stuff because you think someone else has less. As for sleeping with her husband, that's the last thing I'd want to do.:D

And then there are the statements about how, when you give to your fellow man (your own stuff, of course, not what you stole from someone else) you have "done it unto me."

The Ten Commandments are pretty much open to interpretation as well, perhaps even more so than the philosophy that Christ espoused.

I do not think Jesus expanded the commandments, I think he simplified them.

It was never ok to steal from your enemy or sleep with your enemy's wife. Heck your neighbor can be your enemy, cant they? The last 6 commandments, only one was personal.. Honor your parents. The rest is for how we are to treat others. I think neighbors is the way they worded it then, today we might say fellow man.. well wait some fem might freak on that so ... fellow human?

Do you remember the story of the widows mite?

She gave 2 mites, some other man gave something like a thousand... and Jesus asked who gave more.

Everyone said the rich guy and he said no, the widow because she gave all she had.

and the great one about giving a man a fish and he eats for a day but teach him to fish and he eats for a life time.

Jesus was no liberal and I do not see anything in what he said or taught that would lead me to think its ok to over tax some to give to others who didnt make it so great in life.
 
I believe that Christ went on to expand on those statements, didn't he? Didn't he outline who our neighbors are (enemies included!) and who we must forgive, and so on?

I don't believe loving your neighbor means taking his stuff because you think someone else has less. As for sleeping with her husband, that's the last thing I'd want to do.:D

And then there are the statements about how, when you give to your fellow man (your own stuff, of course, not what you stole from someone else) you have "done it unto me."

The Ten Commandments are pretty much open to interpretation as well, perhaps even more so than the philosophy that Christ espoused.



I didnt mean steal from your neighbor to give to a more poor neighbor literally like you took his coat and gave it away, I mean in the way we do it in taxes.

We take from the rich guy and give to the poor guy and call it good when really its just stealing. Its not charity. Charity is when the rich guy gives OF HIS OWN FREE WILL to the poor guy. It is not moral to force people to give their own money to another person because that person has less.
 
...It is a puzzle to me. It seems to me that a person's sexual orientation is his/her own business, after all. Why would I care whether someone else wanted to marry a member of his/her own gender? That doesn't affect me one way or the other.

Precisely!

Why then would one invite government legislation to what is otherwise one's own business?
 
Why you are, Nums!

Nonsense.

I base my opinions on facts and logic. Obviously, that would preclude lying.

Duh?

Two vague principles?

Of course. They are vague when you divorce them from their context.

Jesus said 6 words, two commandments, and you think they are vague?

That's what I said.

Only you, Nums, only you could miss the elegant simplicity of Jesus' two profound commandments.

There is no need to insult the intelligence of others.

I used to think that you were a fairly intelligent man--a bit obsessed with anal sex, but then a lot of men are--but of late you seem to have lost 40 IQ points.

On the contrary, any other person with some common sense would readily agree with what I'm saying.

LOVE GOD. Vague? Hello? Maybe Dr. Who could help you with the difficult parts. LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF. Not love others LIKE yourself, Nums, it's not an either or situation like some similies. Again, perhaps Dr. Who could help you with the big words.

Of course they are vague.

Is the commandment 'love others as yourself' applicable to a masochist?

Is it applicable to a person with suicidal tendencies?

How about a junkie? A prostitute? A suicide bomber?

Clearly, any form of human interaction conforms with 'love others as yourself' if one skews one's perspective radically enough.

That is not what the commandment of love is saying, now, is it? No matter how diverse we are, we share a single form of existence -- human existence -- hence governed by a single set of laws -- natural law.

Only within the CONTEXT of natural law is the commandment of love logical and valid.

This goes to the heart of the matter I've been trying to explain to you since forever. A relative morality simply DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.
 
If you're constipated it's relevant.

But I'm not actually constipated, now, am I? That is what figures of speech is all about, isn't it?

2+3=5 therefore 3+2=5, logical and no argument.

Says who?

The formal argument for that equation is:

1. 2 is real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
2. 3 is a real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
3. 5 is a real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
4. If 2+3 = 5, then 3+2=5 -- Proof: commutative property of addition

Did you honestly think that because it is unstated, it isn't an argument?

Duh?

No, of course not, that's why I said that your argument was not proof.

Apparently, I do need to explain simple concepts to you.

Oh yeah, here's what it says: "Ontology, The subject of ontology is the study of the categories of things that exist or may exist in some domain. The product of such a study, called an ontology, ..." The emphasis is mine. Because you study something doesn't mean that it exists. Once again you have provided no proof.

Correct. The question you need to ask yourself is -- exactly what domain are you contemplating?

Clearly, we are not talking exclusively of the physical world. Otherwise, mathematics doesn't exist in such a domain.

Duh?

Well, I'm sure the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary got it wrong then.

If you were fastidous in copying and pasting, then it most certainly got it wrong.

Philosophy isn't proof either.

Yikes!

The natural sciences -- previously called natural philosophy -- are philosophical fields of inquiry.

What errors of fact and errors of logic would you come up with next?

One of the problems you have is that you ovethink things and your thinking gets fluffy. No, I never said that ANY kind of sex was a manifestation of love. You apparently whomped that one up all by yourself. Sexual orientation is an innate quality and the sex drive is hormonally powered, that's why you will lose sexual drive and potency as you age and your testosterone levels drop.

Of course you missed the point -- AGAIN.

The question is -- can you relativize conjugal love to include homosexual love?

Clearly, the answer is NO. Homosexual love cannot be construed as conjugal love because it logically lacks the pro-creative aspect necessary for conjugal love.

Might conjugal love include all heterosexual love? The anwer is again NO. While heterosexual love may include both unitive and pro-creative aspects, it doesn't always follow that they are the INTENT.

Do you realize how silly you look attempting to make out that Jesus advocated anal sex? What's with this obsession? Does it get you hot to talk graphically about butt-surfing on the internet? Golly, Nums, you're gettin' way out on the edge here with your accusation about Jesus. It does remind me though that a porno movie was made about Jesus being gay and having sex with all the guys He traveled around with way back when. I always thought that was a pretty stupid kind of movie to make, but I don't know, you might have it in your collection the way you're talking about Jesus now. Does your wife know you are posting this way?

What dishonest nonsense.

Where you not the one trying to peddle the argument that jesus' commandment of love includes homosexuality? As ts garp said -- there's no sex like trans sex!

You have said a lot of things, why in the last paragraph you went crazy about Jesus and gay sex. I don't know how you got that with logic and facts though. Nor do I know how you can be an apologist for the Pope's riches.

Hmmm.

Is that not the consequence of your context-less commandment of love -- that gay sex may still conform with jesus' commandment?

And your robin hood economics is no less absurd than that.

Duh?

Well you certainly make a lot of comments about something you have no interest in. My guess is that you don't want to admit your prurient interests, most Christians are taught from an early age to suppress and deny their sexual urges.

And what comments might those be, hmmm?

Oh, and christians don't deny their sexual urges. They simply put them in their proper -- you guessed it -- CONTEXT.

Whoa! First it's gay sex and now you're accusing Jesus of promoting masochism? You are one sick puppy, Nums, does your wife know? She's in it with you, isn't she? High black boots, a riding crop, you naked on your hands and knees, ball-gag in your mouth, a$$ red from the crop hitting it... Does she wear a corset too, stockings and a garter belt? You have spent so much time fantasizing about my sex life and Jesus' sex life that I think it's only fair that we get to fantasize about yours. A dog collar, I bet she makes you wear a dog collar too, doesn't she? Does she make you paint her toenails too?

Don't work yourself up to a sexual frenzy. Its all in your head
 
But I'm not actually constipated, now, am I? That is what figures of speech is all about, isn't it?Says who?
The formal argument for that equation is:
1. 2 is real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
2. 3 is a real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
3. 5 is a real number -- Proof: definition of a real number
4. If 2+3 = 5, then 3+2=5 -- Proof: commutative property of addition
Did you honestly think that because it is unstated, it isn't an argument?
Duh?Apparently, I do need to explain simple concepts to you.
Correct. The question you need to ask yourself is -- exactly what domain are you contemplating?Clearly, we are not talking exclusively of the physical world. Otherwise, mathematics doesn't exist in such a domain.Duh?
If you were fastidous in copying and pasting, then it most certainly got it wrong.Yikes!The natural sciences -- previously called natural philosophy -- are philosophical fields of inquiry.What errors of fact and errors of logic would you come up with next?Of course you missed the point -- AGAIN.The question is -- can you relativize conjugal love to include homosexual love? Clearly, the answer is NO. Homosexual love cannot be construed as conjugal love because it logically lacks the pro-creative aspect necessary for conjugal love.Might conjugal love include all heterosexual love? The anwer is again NO. While heterosexual love may include both unitive and pro-creative aspects, it doesn't always follow that they are the INTENT.What dishonest nonsense.Where you not the one trying to peddle the argument that jesus' commandment of love includes homosexuality? As ts garp said -- there's no sex like trans sex!Hmmm.
Is that not the consequence of your context-less commandment of love -- that gay sex may still conform with jesus' commandment?And your robin hood economics is no less absurd than that.Duh?And what comments might those be, hmmm?Oh, and christians don't deny their sexual urges. They simply put them in their proper -- you guessed it -- CONTEXT.
Don't work yourself up to a sexual frenzy. Its all in your head

What I've realized is that anyone who can't figure out the profoundly simple message in Jesus 4 word commandment: LOVE OTHERS AS YOURSELF, isn't smart enough to discuss with me. I am glad that you have the Catholic church and the Pope to explain things to you though.

It's kind of sad that with all your kinky sex and pornographic accusations, your Kantian philosophy, the Circles of Hell, all your vapid arguments, and your stunning family motto: DUH?, that you simply end up working yourself into a religio/semantic frenzy where you are confused by 4 simple words. Well, I guess we all know that intelligent doesn't mean smart.

Adios Tonto... and the horse you rode in on.
 
I didnt mean steal from your neighbor to give to a more poor neighbor literally like you took his coat and gave it away, I mean in the way we do it in taxes.

We take from the rich guy and give to the poor guy and call it good when really its just stealing. Its not charity. Charity is when the rich guy gives OF HIS OWN FREE WILL to the poor guy. It is not moral to force people to give their own money to another person because that person has less.

So, is it moral to deny marriage to one small segment of the population on the basis of religious tenet when we don't live in a theocracy?
 
I didnt mean steal from your neighbor to give to a more poor neighbor literally like you took his coat and gave it away, I mean in the way we do it in taxes.

We take from the rich guy and give to the poor guy and call it good when really its just stealing. Its not charity. Charity is when the rich guy gives OF HIS OWN FREE WILL to the poor guy. It is not moral to force people to give their own money to another person because that person has less.

Yes, I understand what you meant.

And no, Jesus was not a liberal in the sense of advocating for taxes to rob from the rich and give to the poor. Charity meant, still means, giving your own resources to help those less fortunate.
 
Yes, I understand what you meant.

And no, Jesus was not a liberal in the sense of advocating for taxes to rob from the rich and give to the poor. Charity meant, still means, giving your own resources to help those less fortunate.

There is a key word you forgot

Charity meant, still means, Freely giving your own resources to help those less fortunate


It means nothing if we are forced
 
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So, is it moral to deny marriage to one small segment of the population on the basis of religious tenet when we don't live in a theocracy?

Well mostly I just jumped in this because of the 2 great commandments and what they meant. I was not wanting to get into a conversation on homosexual marriage, besides you already know where I stand when it comes to marriage.

I think plural marriage should be legal because some groups truly think they will not make it to heaven if they do not have plural marriage.

But in general I am against government marriage. I do not think the government should be in the job of "validating relationships" I would like to go back to the old days when a couple wrote in their bible on the day they were married and their pastor signed the bible and one parent on each side signed the bible and they were married, no government involved.

so for the sake of argument in today's times I think government marriage should be for the following...


anyone or anything can marry any one or any thing at any time for any reason in groups or in singles for any reason.


that would cover any possible argument :)
 
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