God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

[Dr.Who]

Can you prove that you have a soul? Can you prove that you are supernatural? I don't know if I have a soul, is it listed on the warranty?

We were discussing Satan and evil. Satan doesn't exist. Evil, well, I guess that depends on how you define it. I think that the things that people do are done out of ignorance, not necessarily a "here and now" ignorance, but more of an ignorance of the larger picture and who they are/where they are/whythey are in relationship to their Creator. People were given free-will, sometimes in our exercise of that free-will we do things that hurt others. As it says in the Bible: As you sow, that also shall you reap. As we reap what we have sown we come to understand better who and what we are, our ignorance is not evil.

Easier I think to talk about sin. The only sin in a free-will Universe would be abrogating the free-will of someone else. Go ahead and see if you can think of a sin that a person can do that doesn't fit that definition.

You don't know if you have a soul? Maybe you don't. Might you be a clay pot created for destruction?

You demand proof from me for my statments which I have always said are a matter of faith. Yet you will say point blank that satan does not exist. Do you have proof or is that too a matter of faith? In fact, your whole denial of Christiany based on your faith.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Can you seriously read about the actions of the Taliban and say that evil doesn't exist?

We don't need Satan to have evil. Humans are fully capable of evil.

As always, it depends on your definition of "evil". Frightened people in groups will do ANYTHING that is humanly possible to do. Hatred is a function of fear, greed is another function of fear (based on there not being enough for everybody). Fear tends to rule people's lives, I don't think they are evil because of it.

Part of the confusion around this is the introduction of "supernatural" evil, as in Satan. All the "evil" things I've seen are things of which human beings are entirely capable, there is no supernatural, Stephen King kind of evil that I've ever seen proof of.

When we talk about the Taliban or any other group we need to take into account how they have lived for centuries: starvation, war, religious insanity, and grinding poverty. None of those things excuse what they do, but those things help explain how they got to the point of being the kind of people they are. The Dick Cheney's of the world are harder to explain, but again I think it's fear. Dick's always been rich and privileged, the fear of losing that has to be an awful burden. There is an interesting book called WEALTH ADDICTION by Philip Slater that talks about a mental illness that affects many rich people, Howard Hughes died because he wouldn't pay for proper medical care. People have starved themselves to death rather than spend money on food. Fear does crazy things to people.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You don't know if you have a soul? Maybe you don't. Might you be a clay pot created for destruction?

You demand proof from me for my statments which I have always said are a matter of faith. Yet you will say point blank that satan does not exist. Do you have proof or is that too a matter of faith? In fact, your whole denial of Christiany based on your faith.

I readily admit that I post my opinions, I never claim to have God's Word for others, only myself. Soul is one of those terms that has no definable meaning, each person has to sort it out for themselves. No evidence for or against the soul has ever been presented. Please note that your religion maintains that animals have no souls even though in the Bible it says: Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. So we could argue souls forever and not prove a point.

All religion is conjecture, yours, mine, Joe's, so we are all in the same boat. You wish to postulate a supernatural evil being called Satan. Okay, got any proof? I don't believe that God would allow something like Satan to develop and turn him loose on us unless this Satan is no more than we are. No evidence of such a being.

And you can't seem to comprehend that it is not Christ-ianity that I deny, quite the opposite, I think the words of Jesus are excellent. It's all the other stuff that I think is bunkum. People attributing to God the very things that they wish to do, and by so doing gain justification in their own eyes for their violence and cruelty.

 

[numinus]

I readily admit that I post my opinions, I never claim to have God's Word for others, only myself. Soul is one of those terms that has no definable meaning, each person has to sort it out for themselves. No evidence for or against the soul has ever been presented...blah...blah...blah.

It is funny that you seek evidence for things you are inclined to disbelieve and forgo it for things that you do believe.

You claim that 'soul' has no defineable meaning despite the fact that this is the subject matter of metaphysical inquiry.

And yet, you believe some nonsense like 'hatred is a function of fear' as if there is any empirical evidence for such a thing -- not to mention the fact that a mathematical function relating hatred and fear is patently absurd. Or were you just quoting yoda?

I wonder if you thoroughly confuse yourself with this mass of inconsequential nonsense you do believe?

 

[dahermit]

As always, it depends on your definition of "evil". Part of the confusion around this is the introduction of "supernatural" evil, as in Satan. All the "evil" things I've seen are things of which human beings are entirely capable, there is no supernatural, Stephen King kind of evil that I've ever seen proof of.

Do not forget "demons", "witches", that are mentioned in the Bible. And do not forget the greatly feared, "boogieman".

Quick...call a priest for an exorcism!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It is funny that you seek evidence for things you are inclined to disbelieve and forgo it for things that you do believe.

You claim that 'soul' has no defineable meaning despite the fact that this is the subject matter of metaphysical inquiry.

And yet, you believe some nonsense like 'hatred is a function of fear' as if there is any empirical evidence for such a thing -- not to mention the fact that a mathematical function relating hatred and fear is patently absurd. Or were you just quoting yoda?

I wonder if you thoroughly confuse yourself with this mass of inconsequential nonsense you do believe?

I search for evidence of all kinds of things, but things that make no sense, have no evidence or proof of existence I tend to discard. You and I agree that there is a Creative Force in the Universe, you've posted some very logical arguments for it, but you've not done likewise for Satan. Go for it, I'll listen.

If you're going to post, why don't you contribute? Define "soul" and give some proof of the validity of your definition. I can't do it, I never met anyone who could, lots of people have opinions but nothing of substance has ever been produced. You talk really big, Nums, but you don't have much to say it seems. "Metaphysical inquiry"? Okay, give us the straight scoop.

Poor Nums, you just scramble for something to say, don't you? The word "function" has more meanings than just the mathematical one. Dictionaries help with things like that.

I'm sorry that you can't understand the things that I write, I try to explain but--as we all know--some people just don't have the mental horsepower. Maybe your wife could help you out.

 

[numinus]

I search for evidence of all kinds of things, but things that make no sense, have no evidence or proof of existence I tend to discard. You and I agree that there is a Creative Force in the Universe, you've posted some very logical arguments for it, but you've not done likewise for Satan. Go for it, I'll listen.

That's because evil, as I have said so many times, DOES NOT EXIST. It is a 'corrupted good'.

Haven't you read dante alighieri's divine commedy? I know it is full of allegories but the circles of hell are clear enough, I think.

If you're going to post, why don't you contribute? Define "soul" and give some proof of the validity of your definition. I can't do it, I never met anyone who could, lots of people have opinions but nothing of substance has ever been produced. You talk really big, Nums, but you don't have much to say it seems. "Metaphysical inquiry"? Okay, give us the straight scoop.

Sigh.

The physical world has, at best, only transient existence, no? After all, the only thing immutably true about matter is that it is in a constant state of change, is it not?

But we know we exist.

Therefore, something in the human existence is independent of its material existence. This, we call soul.

Does it really make sense to you to ask for EMPIRICAL evidence for a METAphysical entity???? I mean, I'd expect a question like that in the other forum but here????

Poor Nums, you just scramble for something to say, don't you? The word "function" has more meanings than just the mathematical one. Dictionaries help with things like that.

LMAO.

Here are the synonyms of the word 'function':

capacity, job, action, activity, affair, behavior, business, charge, concern, duty, employment, exercise, faculty, goal, mark, mission, object, objective, occupation, office, operation, part, post, power, province, purpose, raison d'être, responsibility, role, service, situation, target, task, use, utility, work

Take your pick and give your empirical evidence to support your statement 'fear is a function of hate'.

I'm sorry that you can't understand the things that I write, I try to explain but--as we all know--some people just don't have the mental horsepower. Maybe your wife could help you out.

Your statements have neither facts nor logic. That much I understand.

What your statements mean, exactly, well, only you know.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

That's because evil, as I have said so many times, DOES NOT EXIST. It is a 'corrupted good'.

Well at least we can agree that evil doesn't exist within the bounds of our definition of the word.

Haven't you read dante alighieri's divine commedy? I know it is full of allegories but the circles of hell are clear enough, I think.

I find no reference to the "circles of Hell" that is in the least clear. Hell is an allegorical place, whereas a circle is simply a line of no depth going around a point in space forever.

Sigh.

I love your dramatic little "sighs", they're so sweet and long suffering.

The physical world has, at best, only transient existence, no? After all, the only thing immutably true about matter is that it is in a constant state of change, is it not?

But we know we exist.

Therefore, something in the human existence is independent of its material existence. This, we call soul.

This YOU call soul, I know Christians who call it spirit. Your logic sags down a bit here though. The fact that we exist does not necessarily mean that part of us is independent of the material existence. We assume that it does, but there is no proof of it--like all religion it's based on belief or faith or wishful thinking. I don't actually disagree with your definition, but I do know that it's not proven in any way.

Does it really make sense to you to ask for EMPIRICAL evidence for a METAphysical entity???? I mean, I'd expect a question like that in the other forum but here????

So, present a metaphysical proof, a bigtime science guy like you should have all kinds of metaphysical proofs. I am unaware of any metaphysical "proofs". People believe things, but that's not proof.

Here are the synonyms of the word 'function':
capacity, job, action, activity, affair, behavior, business, charge, concern, duty, employment, exercise, faculty, goal, mark, mission, object, objective, occupation, office, operation, part, post, power, province, purpose, raison d'être, responsibility, role, service, situation, target, task, use, utility, work

Take your pick and give your empirical evidence to support your statement 'fear is a function of hate'.

It's a metaphysical truth, so why are you demanding an empirical proof? I would expect that on some other discussion site, but not this one.

 

[top gun]

I readily admit that I post my opinions, I never claim to have God's Word for others, only myself. Soul is one of those terms that has no definable meaning, each person has to sort it out for themselves. No evidence for or against the soul has ever been presented. Please note that your religion maintains that animals have no souls even though in the Bible it says: Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. So we could argue souls forever and not prove a point.

All religion is conjecture, yours, mine, Joe's, so we are all in the same boat. You wish to postulate a supernatural evil being called Satan. Okay, got any proof? I don't believe that God would allow something like Satan to develop and turn him loose on us unless this Satan is no more than we are. No evidence of such a being.

And you can't seem to comprehend that it is not Christ-ianity that I deny, quite the opposite, I think the words of Jesus are excellent. It's all the other stuff that I think is bunkum. People attributing to God the very things that they wish to do, and by so doing gain justification in their own eyes for their violence and cruelty.

It's very hard for those invested in the "religion" story to look at things without bias.

And no doubt there is probably some "placebo effect" that an intense belief helps to create.

That's why there's such extreme attempts at exploitation regarding anything that is not completely known through science. People who believe in the super natural point at something science has yet to fully and testable able to explain with 100% assurance and say... See, that's just like my religion not being able to explain something.

The difference is most things are able to be explained through science... and man made religion lacks proof on every level except that it was a set of rules laid down a long time ago.

No miracle has ever been proven... no act of a "God" has ever been proven. There are often some good rules to live my in there. But once again good rules to live by don't have to be authored by some Supreme Deity. People make good rules and laws all the time to address various problems that come up as time & conditions evolve.

I think religion is something best kept and acted on internally. If it makes someone feel better living by some religion based scenario good for them.

The problem ever since the dawning of all the many man made religions though is the compulsion to have to convert others. History is riddled with wars, death & destruction in the name of religion... and that's a very sad fact indeed.

This is a good clip for someone that was a HUGE part of the Christian Conservative movement and was brought into it by his father. He however was eventually able to see it for what it was... for lack of a better word... a sham.

He has a great new book out called CRAZY FOR GOD.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

It's very hard for those invested in the "religion" story to look at things without bias.

And no doubt there is probably some "placebo effect" that an intense belief helps to create.

That's why there's such extreme attempts at exploitation regarding anything that is not completely known through science. People who believe in the super natural point at something science has yet to fully and testable able to explain with 100% assurance and say... See, that's just like my religion not being able to explain something.

The difference is most things are able to be explained through science... and man made religion lacks proof on every level except that it was a set of rules laid down a long time ago.

No miracle has ever been proven... no act of a "God" has ever been proven. There are often some good rules to live my in there. But once again good rules to live by don't have to be authored by some Supreme Deity. People make good rules and laws all the time to address various problems that come up as time & conditions evolve.

I think religion is something best kept and acted on internally. If it makes someone feel better living by some religion based scenario good for them.

The problem ever since the dawning of all the many man made religions though is the compulsion to have to convert others. History is riddled with wars, death & destruction in the name of religion... and that's a very sad fact indeed.

This is a good clip for someone that was a HUGE part of the Christian Conservative movement and was brought into it by his father. He however was eventually able to see it for what it was... for lack of a better word... a sham.

He has a great new book out called CRAZY FOR GOD.

Good post, thanks.

 

[Dr.Who]

I readily admit that I post my opinions, I never claim to have God's Word for others, only myself.

I'll be sure to bring that up again and again and again.

Soul is one of those terms that has no definable meaning, each person has to sort it out for themselves. No evidence for or against the soul has ever been presented.

There has been lots of testimony on the subject and all of it is evidence. The bible is one source of evidence. As are the words of Jesus that just below you say are excellent. the fact of the matter is that you claim to believe the words of Jesus but at the same time you deny many many things that He testifies to; like the soul and supernatural, esp Satan. Why Jesus says more about Satan and/or hell than the whole of the OT.

Please note that your religion maintains that animals have no souls even though in the Bible it says: Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. So we could argue souls forever and not prove a point.

Whether or not animals have souls would be hard to answer. But not from that passage you put forth.

Ecclesiastes is a book that proclaims early that all is meaningless; the author feels that way. Everyone lives a short life and then dies. Just like the animals. But later the author learns that all is not meaningless. He learns that we have a purpose in life. The contrast we are supposed to take away from it from the wrong attitude at the beginning to the right attitude at the end.

All religion is conjecture, yours, mine, Joe's, so we are all in the same boat. You wish to postulate a supernatural evil being called Satan. Okay, got any proof? I don't believe that God would allow something like Satan to develop and turn him loose on us unless this Satan is no more than we are. No evidence of such a being.

All religion is conjecture but some of them have more internal consistency than others and some of them are more consistent with reality. Then again, what you said is just your opinion.

And you can't seem to comprehend that it is not Christ-ianity that I deny, quite the opposite, I think the words of Jesus are excellent. It's all the other stuff that I think is bunkum. People attributing to God the very things that they wish to do, and by so doing gain justification in their own eyes for their violence and cruelty.

You think you are very good at knowing which parts are bunkum and which parts are not. In fact, you obviously think you are better than millions of other citizens of this world, and thousands of people who devoted their lives to studying the word. Congratulations. Hope that works out for you. It is just your opinion after all.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I'll be sure to bring that up again and again and again.

Do that, it's a statement I have made over and over again.

There has been lots of testimony on the subject and all of it is evidence. The bible is one source of evidence. As are the words of Jesus that just below you say are excellent. the fact of the matter is that you claim to believe the words of Jesus but at the same time you deny many many things that He testifies to; like the soul and supernatural, esp Satan. Why Jesus says more about Satan and/or hell than the whole of the OT.

If you took all the evidence and boiled it down to hard facts you couldn't make dot big enough to see. It's all conjecture, the fact that you accept some of that conjecture in no way makes it more valid.

Whether or not animals have souls would be hard to answer. But not from that passage you put forth.

Ecclesiastes is a book that proclaims early that all is meaningless; the author feels that way. Everyone lives a short life and then dies. Just like the animals. But later the author learns that all is not meaningless. He learns that we have a purpose in life. The contrast we are supposed to take away from it from the wrong attitude at the beginning to the right attitude at the end.

Everybody likes their own interpretation of scripture.

All religion is conjecture but some of them have more internal consistency than others and some of them are more consistent with reality. Then again, what you said is just your opinion.

Well, maybe, but internal consistency can also be in the eye of the beholder. If you want real consistency, then you should consider reincarnation.

You think you are very good at knowing which parts are bunkum and which parts are not. In fact, you obviously think you are better than millions of other citizens of this world, and thousands of people who devoted their lives to studying the word. Congratulations. Hope that works out for you. It is just your opinion after all.

The fallacy in your position is that you fail to admit that my opinion has EXACTLY as much validity as anyone else's, one can study a subject all their life and still be totally wrong about it. No one has anything but their own relationship with their Creator, all the rest is supposition. The fact that it's all supposition is what keeps me from trying to pass laws like the Christians and others have done to force everyone to obey their beliefs. I don't take for myself anything that I would deny to others. Christians can't say that truthfully.

 

[top gun]

There has been lots of testimony on the subject and all of it is evidence. The bible is one source of evidence. As are the words of Jesus that just below you say are excellent. the fact of the matter is that you claim to believe the words of Jesus but at the same time you deny many many things that He testifies to; like the soul and supernatural, esp Satan. Why Jesus says more about Satan and/or hell than the whole of the OT.

I think if you ever even just watched an episode of Judge Judy let alone actually ever had to testify in court you would pretty quickly realize none of that is "evidence" of a super natural existance... it's hearsay.

What someone said someone else told them. Or something someone found somewhere written down by someone no longer alive to cross examine for authinticity or motive.

None of the people wrote about in the Bible were even alive when the Catholic church started picking and choosing what to use in today's Bible.

You think you are very good at knowing which parts are bunkum and which parts are not. In fact, you obviously think you are better than millions of other citizens of this world, and thousands of people who devoted their lives to studying the word. Congratulations. Hope that works out for you. It is just your opinion after all.

I don't think that's what's being said at all. I think what's being said is there most likely was a good "person" named Jesus and many of the teaching of Christianity are good rules to live by.

That doesn't document, demonstrate or prove... angels, ghosts & goblins, talking snakes or a supreme supernatural being living up in the clouds. So one can honestly take from it what seems good & makes sense... and disregard the rest.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I think if you ever even just watched an episode of Judge Judy let alone actually ever had to testify in court you would pretty quickly realize none of that is "evidence" of a super natural existance... it's hearsay.

What someone said someone else told them. Or something someone found somewhere written down by someone no longer alive to cross examine for authinticity or motive.

None of the people wrote about in the Bible were even alive when the Catholic church started picking and choosing what to use in today's Bible.

I don't think that's what's being said at all. I think what's being said is there most likely was a good "person" named Jesus and many of the teaching of Christianity are good rules to live by.

That doesn't document, demonstrate or prove... angels, ghosts & goblins, talking snakes or a supreme supernatural being living up in the clouds. So one can honestly take from it what seems good & makes sense... and disregard the rest.

That's close, Top, but while saving the good parts I would also like to remove the bad ones. The nasty stuff in the Bible has been used for centuries to justify all kinds of violence against certain people. "Suffer not a witch to live" was the basis for burning a million women at the stake, gay bashing is based on scripture as well. We don't need more justification for doing bad things.

I don't see why Christians would be upset about the things I'm suggesting. How many Christians advocate slavery, selling children, burning witches, or killing gay people? How many Christians agree that women should be spoils of war? Why are Christians soooooo focused on all the nonsense in the Bible and so silent about the really good things that Jesus said? Aren't they Christ-ians?

 

[numinus]

Well at least we can agree that evil doesn't exist within the bounds of our definition of the word.

You like that, do you? Its positively medieval.

I find no reference to the "circles of Hell" that is in the least clear. Hell is an allegorical place, whereas a circle is simply a line of no depth going around a point in space forever.

Isn't the divine commedy required reading in your highschool? It criticizes the hell out of catholicism and yet, it is required reading in the catholic school I attended.

I love your dramatic little "sighs", they're so sweet and long suffering.

If I can only weep blood....

This YOU call soul, I know Christians who call it spirit. Your logic sags down a bit here though. The fact that we exist does not necessarily mean that part of us is independent of the material existence. We assume that it does, but there is no proof of it--like all religion it's based on belief or faith or wishful thinking. I don't actually disagree with your definition, but I do know that it's not proven in any way.

I thought we have been through this.

Finite and contingent beings cannot cause infinite and incontingent beings. Nor can they cause themselves.

Therefore there is something in human existence that is independent of its material existence.

So, present a metaphysical proof, a bigtime science guy like you should have all kinds of metaphysical proofs. I am unaware of any metaphysical "proofs". People believe things, but that's not proof.

Ontology.

It's a metaphysical truth, so why are you demanding an empirical proof? I would expect that on some other discussion site, but not this one.

Wasn't the lack of empirical proof your basis for rejecting ontology?

You tell me.