God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

[samsara15]

Lest I be thought to have said more than I did, we might note that society has laws making many of the more extreme forms of anti-social behavior punishable, with good reason for doing so.

However, when society has taken on the task of legislating morality, it has never worked out well. We don't stone people for adultry, for example. We don't cut off 5-year old Johnny's hand for taking away his three year old sibling's toy.

 

[numinus]

Yes, Georg Cantor was Russian; he is most famous for his work on infinities and transfinite numbers. The lowest level of infinity, he termed Aleph-Null. some call him the creator of Set Theory, which may be a bit strong. he was a very controversial figure. Since you were trained as an engineer, you have a very precise mind, and might find the following reference both fun and an interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor

Interesting.

However, I sitll do not see how cantor's theorem contradicts metaphysical infinity.

Would you mind being a bit clear on that one?

 

[Dr.Who]

Lest I be thought to have said more than I did, we might note that society has laws making many of the more extreme forms of anti-social behavior punishable, with good reason for doing so.

However, when society has taken on the task of legislating morality, it has never worked out well. We don't stone people for adultry, for example. We don't cut off 5-year old Johnny's hand for taking away his three year old sibling's toy.

Right, and it also failed when it took on the task of legislating morality when it prosecuted people for murder. Oh wait, that is a good enforcement of morality.

In fact all laws are based on someone's morality or ideas of what is right and what is wrong. And all laws restrict someone's freedom of action.

So how do we decide which laws to keep and which ones to ditch? Give me a "C", give me an "O",...

 

[samsara15]

The turtles remark was a partial jest and a direct reference to levels of infinity. Metaphysics postulates as if all infinities are the same, but they are not. Recall your somewhat jesting remark about the stone God could not lift - jack it up one more level or so and the stone becomes liftable. At what level infinity is God - the ultimate level of Cantor, somewhere in between, or at whatever level the situation requires? To answer that, we must delve deeper into how we personally define the concept of God, which may vary from person to person, even among non-theists.

One more issue for you, as a dualist - do you postulate that dualism applies to homo erectus and our precursors? At what stage of evolution does humankind become dualistic? Or do you postulate all animals as dualistic? Or would that be a subject for another thread?

 

[Dr.Who]

The turtles remark was a partial jest and a direct reference to levels of infinity. Metaphysics postulates as if all infinities are the same, but they are not. Recall your somewhat jesting remark about the stone God could not lift - jack it up one more level or so and the stone becomes liftable. At what level infinity is God - the ultimate level of Cantor, somewhere in between, or at whatever level the situation requires? To answer that, we must delve deeper into how we personally define the concept of God, which may vary from person to person, even among non-theists.

I wasn't quite sure where the reference came from and I assumed it was the old idea of the world resting on the back of a turtle to which people asked what the turtle was standing on. I surmised that it was a question about causality and the beginning of the universe. I am still not very familiar with the theory of metaphysics and infinities that you are talking about.

One more issue for you, as a dualist - do you postulate that dualism applies to homo erectus and our precursors? At what stage of evolution does humankind become dualistic? Or do you postulate all animals as dualistic? Or would that be a subject for another thread?

Not questions I have all the answers to.

I do postulate that dualism applies to mankind as we are today. I do not know if it applied to all our ancestors. In fact, sometimes I wonder if Adam and Eve were not merely the first two ancestors to have a soul- thus they were the first people in one sense. I have seen evidence that some animals have souls and I have reason to believe that some do not.

What I have not seen is a reason to be concerned about how the answers turn out.

 

[Patrick Henry]

So god is clearly responsible for all the bad stuff.

That depends if you believe in Him at all.

 

[numinus]

The turtles remark was a partial jest and a direct reference to levels of infinity. Metaphysics postulates as if all infinities are the same, but they are not. Recall your somewhat jesting remark about the stone God could not lift - jack it up one more level or so and the stone becomes liftable. At what level infinity is God - the ultimate level of Cantor, somewhere in between, or at whatever level the situation requires? To answer that, we must delve deeper into how we personally define the concept of God, which may vary from person to person, even among non-theists.

Uhmm, what I talked about is axiomatic set theory. Notice that any form of logic is merely an extension of set theory.

Mathematics is also just set theory, more specifically, the set of real numbers. And the set of real numbers is what cantor was talking about.

So, what exactly did cantor say about infinity that you find applicable to metaphysics?

One more issue for you, as a dualist - do you postulate that dualism applies to homo erectus and our precursors? At what stage of evolution does humankind become dualistic? Or do you postulate all animals as dualistic? Or would that be a subject for another thread?

Perhaps in another thread.

 

[samsara15]

I was being deliberately vague, since there are very many conceiveable ways that Cators levels of infinity may apply to metaphysics. As you may have noted in the article, for example:

Christian theologians saw Cantor's work as a challenge to the uniqueness of the absolute infinity in the nature of God. In particular, Neo-Thomist thinkers saw the existence of an actual infinity that consisted of something other than God as jeopardizing "God's exclusive claim to supreme infinity". Cantor strongly believed that this view was a misinterpretation of infinity, and was convinced that set theory could help correct this mistake:

“ "…the transfinite species are just as much at the disposal of the intentions of the Creator and His absolute boundless will as are the finite numbers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor

One Cardinal cited in the article even equated the theory of tranfinite numbers with pantheism (incorrectly so, IMO).

This is an open issue.
I was not citing nor did I have in mind any single example, but merely mentioning it as jumping off point for speculation.

 

[1soldier]

you should give God all the glory for all the good things in life.I don't give satan credit for even the bad or evil things.I don't feel satan deserves any credit for anything.I would rather put the blame on myself for the not so good things that happen in this life as I walk through it.I'm just 1 soldier in Gods mighty army,won't you be 1 too?

 

[AgainstTheMachine]

you should give God all the glory for all the good things in life.I don't give satan credit for even the bad or evil things.I don't feel satan deserves any credit for anything.I would rather put the blame on myself for the not so good things that happen in this life as I walk through it.I'm just 1 soldier in Gods mighty army,won't you be 1 too?

but the Bible says God admits to having created evil

 

[Dr.Who]

but the Bible says God admits to having created evil

Sorry someone has mislead you.

For example God created Lucifer (bearer of light) a beautiful angel who of his own will fell from grace and became evil.

What the bible admits is:


http://www.gty.org/Resources/Questions/QA134
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Biblequestions/GodVersusEvil.htm
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

but the Bible says God admits to having created evil

Don't put much stock in what the Bible says, there are a lot of silly things in there. God didn't make evil, evil doesn't exist, neither does Satan. Satan is a boogey-man that's used to frighten people into the arms of churches. As near as I can tell no one has shown us any evidence of a supernatural evil being--can you, Dr. Who?

 

[PLC1]

Don't put much stock in what the Bible says, there are a lot of silly things in there. God didn't make evil, evil doesn't exist, neither does Satan. Satan is a boogey-man that's used to frighten people into the arms of churches. As near as I can tell no one has shown us any evidence of a supernatural evil being--can you, Dr. Who?

Can you seriously read about the actions of the Taliban and say that evil doesn't exist?

We don't need Satan to have evil. Humans are fully capable of evil.

 

[Dr.Who]

As near as I can tell no one has shown us any evidence of a supernatural evil being--can you, Dr. Who?

Do you have a soul?
Have you done evil?

I do, I have. I am a supernatural evil being.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Do you have a soul?
Have you done evil?

I do, I have. I am a supernatural evil being.

Can you prove that you have a soul? Can you prove that you are supernatural? I don't know if I have a soul, is it listed on the warranty?

We were discussing Satan and evil. Satan doesn't exist. Evil, well, I guess that depends on how you define it. I think that the things that people do are done out of ignorance, not necessarily a "here and now" ignorance, but more of an ignorance of the larger picture and who they are/where they are/whythey are in relationship to their Creator. People were given free-will, sometimes in our exercise of that free-will we do things that hurt others. As it says in the Bible: As you sow, that also shall you reap. As we reap what we have sown we come to understand better who and what we are, our ignorance is not evil.

Easier I think to talk about sin. The only sin in a free-will Universe would be abrogating the free-will of someone else. Go ahead and see if you can think of a sin that a person can do that doesn't fit that definition.