Extremism

[ASPCA4EVER]

I don't agree with Pandora on a point or two (or three or...) but my experience is that she is an honest debater and a capable thinker.

Always has not as yet demonstrated the faintest shred of intellectual curiousity or productive thought.

Which is what what was so astounding and disappointing the way in which she strived to back door attack me via the reputation points and has on many occasions verbally supported the likes of: Always, BOOBTHEBUILDER and some of the other nefarious vitriolic spewing members and tuned them out and turned a blind eye to their posts

But you and I are in total agreement on the ways & means of the 'ALWAYS' persona

 

[always]

Well, at least you're not an extremist. I asked before but you didn't answer: What is to be done the huge group of Americans who don't agree with you? You characterize them in viscious terms, it's obvious that you think that they should not be allowed to participate in the political system, but what is your suggestion for their disposal? How do we get rid of them?

Going just on the information you have posted, I have to guess that at least half the people in the US do not meet your standards. Pony up here, Al, what do you think we need to do with that 180 million Americans? Even if it's only a quarter of the population, what are we to do with that 90 million Americans?

Well, first I say at least 70% of the population are CONSERVATIVE and agree with the Conservative Principles that SAVED AMERICAN from total destruction by the Soviet Union under our greatest President Ronald Reagan. Your admitted guess of only 50% is in my honorable opinion is wrong and too low by at least 20%.
Now , you ask what is to be done with the remainder.I would start by trying to educate them in the past history of our nation and our progress as a people under periods where America was FREE to flourish without controls demanded by extreme leftist policies. Education would be the first step. If after a period of time , say two decades, those still poisoned by liberalism, obamaism , fascism, statism, or all the other "isms" that endanger our freedom and our right to worship our GOD , OUR CREATOR , as we must without an established State Church. In other words , ALL Americans must have the FREEDOM of RELIGION , not a Federal law that insist on NO RELIGION worshiping our GOD, OUR CREATOR. America is a CHRISTIAN NATION regardless what leader of the reverend Wright group has to say.

No, I would not practise the methods of concentration camps , gas camps , barbed wire fences , or brutal force used by friends and partners of liberalism.
I fail to see the main difference between the agenda of nations like Russia , China , Iran , Cuba , N. Korea, Iraq, and other marxist nations from the doctrine and agenda of the democrat party, socialist party , communist party, and parties of oppression in America.

If education fails to completely change over these " lost souls". then we must first ban the "STATE CONTROLLED" media , both print and electronic. We would never allow our enemy a manufacturing site on our soil to build a bomb to be used against our people. So, why allow a admitted group America haters to use our airways to spread their poison? We must deny them a voice and a stage to try and kill us. Of course if they chose to relocate to one of their marxist nations they would be free to go,

Our goal would never cause then bodily harm, not do to them what they would be happy to do to us, given a chance.
First we try EDUCATION , THEN STRICT CONTROL, since they are an admitted danger to our Constitution and our FREEDOMS and OUR PEOPLE.

WE have seen in just one year the injury a combination of liberalism working with other anti- american ism's to create chaos. Obama is at least the most INEPT president in our nations history. Of course what passes as ineptness may well be just his agenda working against Americas' Values on purpose.

America is in grave danger due to the election results of 2008. America was deceived as never before. As the WSJ opinion page expressed just a few days ago, Obama is the most UNKNOWN PRESIDENT elect EVER!!
OUR ECONOMIC COLLAPSE is his doing or not doing , caused by Ignorance , Arrogrance, or Intentional, Just look at his appointments , his misdeeds , his lack of decision making , his speeches are no longer worthy , his words are parroted over and over through a "PROMPTER"
You ask, "What do I do with the MISFITS?" , I just gave my opinion. I'am sure you will not agree since you are part of the problem needing a education on CONSERVATISM and WHY IT WILL SAVE AMERICA AGAIN!
"ALWAYS",

No, not for just an hour, not for just a day, not for just a year, but ALWAYS!

SEE YOU IN 2010, WHEN WE BEGIN, AT THE BALLOT BOX!!

TAKING AMERICA BACK!!, KENYA BELIEVE IT!!!


OBAMA CANNOT GOLF IS WAY INTO HISTORY!! THE GAME OF GOLF IS JUST TO HONORABLE!! ASK TIGER!!

 

[PLC1]

Well, first I say at least 70% of the population are CONSERVATIVE and agree with the Conservative Principles that SAVED AMERICAN from total destruction by the Soviet Union under our greatest President Ronald Reagan. Your admitted guess of only 50% is in my honorable opinion is wrong and too low by at least 20%.

I think your estimate is rather high, but nevertheless irrelevant. The question was not how many are conservative, but how many agree with your point of view.

I think Mare's estimate of half is way high, too.

Now , you ask what is to be done with the remainder.I would start by trying to educate them in the past history of our nation and our progress as a people under periods where America was FREE to flourish without controls demanded by extreme leftist policies. Education would be the first step.

Education is an important step towards moulding the consciousness to the desired goal:

The problem, that is to say, is educational. It is a problem of continuously moulding the consciousness both of the directing group and of the larger executive group that lies immediately below it.

If after a period of time , say two decades, those still poisoned by liberalism, obamaism , fascism, statism, or all the other "isms" that endanger our freedom and our right to worship our GOD , OUR CREATOR , as we must without an established State Church. In other words , ALL Americans must have the FREEDOM of RELIGION , not a Federal law that insist on NO RELIGION worshiping our GOD, OUR CREATOR. America is a CHRISTIAN NATION regardless what leader of the reverend Wright group has to say.

You seem to have left your thought unfinished here. Those deluded people with their various -isms who still don't agree with you, or won't accept Christianity and don't respond to reeducation would .... what?

No, I would not practise the methods of concentration camps , gas camps , barbed wire fences , or brutal force used by friends and partners of liberalism.

That's a relief. I'd hate to see concentration camps for people who don't agree with your point of view.

"friends and partners of liberalism"? Who are these awful people who do use concentration camps and such to mold others to their way of thinking?

I fail to see the main difference between the agenda of nations like Russia , China , Iran , Cuba , N. Korea, Iraq, and other marxist nations from the doctrine and agenda of the democrat party, socialist party , communist party, and parties of oppression in America.

I think you have a serious lack of perception if you can't see the difference between various points of view in this country and the regimes of places you have mentioned.

If education fails to completely change over these " lost souls". then we must first ban the "STATE CONTROLLED" media , both print and electronic.

That has been done already, hasn't it? I thought we had freedom of speech in this nation. What media do you think is controlled by the state?

Our goal would never cause then bodily harm, not do to them what they would be happy to do to us, given a chance.
First we try EDUCATION , THEN STRICT CONTROL, since they are an admitted danger to our Constitution and our FREEDOMS and OUR PEOPLE.

Oh, there's the answer we were looking for above. If education didn't bring people around to your way of thinking, then the next step is strict control. You wouldn't accomplish that through the use of concentration camps, but what methods would you use?

Here is a description of power and control. Perhaps you could take some lessons from the author who penned these words:

'We are the priests of power,' he said. 'God is power. But at present power is only a word so far as you are concerned. It is time for you to gather some idea of what power means. The first thing you must realize is that power is collective. The individual only has power in so far as he ceases to be an individual. You know the Party slogan: "Freedom is Slavery". Has it ever occurred to you that it is reversible? Slavery is freedom. Alone -- free -- the human being is always defeated. It must be so, because every human being is doomed to die, which is the greatest of all failures. But if he can make complete, utter submission, if he can escape from his identity, if he can merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all-powerful and immortal. The second thing for you to realize is that power is power over human beings. Over the body but, above all, over the mind. Power over matter -- external reality, as you would call it -- is not important. Already our control over matter is absolute.'

You ask, "What do I do with the MISFITS?" , I just gave my opinion. I'am sure you will not agree since you are part of the problem needing a education on CONSERVATISM and WHY IT WILL SAVE AMERICA AGAIN!

I'm not sure that I agree with your definition of "misfits" or with dealing with them through total control. I think that has been tried in the past, and found to be less than totally satisfactory.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Well, first I say at least 70% of the population are CONSERVATIVE and agree with the Conservative Principles that SAVED AMERICAN from total destruction by the Soviet Union under our greatest President Ronald Reagan. Your admitted guess of only 50% is in my honorable opinion is wrong and too low by at least 20%.
Now , you ask what is to be done with the remainder.I would start by trying to educate them in the past history of our nation and our progress as a people under periods where America was FREE to flourish without controls demanded by extreme leftist policies. Education would be the first step. If after a period of time , say two decades, those still poisoned by liberalism, obamaism , fascism, statism, or all the other "isms" that endanger our freedom and our right to worship our GOD , OUR CREATOR , as we must without an established State Church. In other words , ALL Americans must have the FREEDOM of RELIGION , not a Federal law that insist on NO RELIGION worshiping our GOD, OUR CREATOR. America is a CHRISTIAN NATION regardless what leader of the reverend Wright group has to say.

No, I would not practise the methods of concentration camps , gas camps , barbed wire fences , or brutal force used by friends and partners of liberalism.
I fail to see the main difference between the agenda of nations like Russia , China , Iran , Cuba , N. Korea, Iraq, and other marxist nations from the doctrine and agenda of the democrat party, socialist party , communist party, and parties of oppression in America.

If education fails to completely change over these " lost souls". then we must first ban the "STATE CONTROLLED" media , both print and electronic. We would never allow our enemy a manufacturing site on our soil to build a bomb to be used against our people. So, why allow a admitted group America haters to use our airways to spread their poison? We must deny them a voice and a stage to try and kill us. Of course if they chose to relocate to one of their marxist nations they would be free to go,

Our goal would never cause then bodily harm, not do to them what they would be happy to do to us, given a chance.
First we try EDUCATION , THEN STRICT CONTROL, since they are an admitted danger to our Constitution and our FREEDOMS and OUR PEOPLE.

WE have seen in just one year the injury a combination of liberalism working with other anti- american ism's to create chaos. Obama is at least the most INEPT president in our nations history. Of course what passes as ineptness may well be just his agenda working against Americas' Values on purpose.

America is in grave danger due to the election results of 2008. America was deceived as never before. As the WSJ opinion page expressed just a few days ago, Obama is the most UNKNOWN PRESIDENT elect EVER!!
OUR ECONOMIC COLLAPSE is his doing or not doing , caused by Ignorance , Arrogrance, or Intentional, Just look at his appointments , his misdeeds , his lack of decision making , his speeches are no longer worthy , his words are parroted over and over through a "PROMPTER"
You ask, "What do I do with the MISFITS?" , I just gave my opinion. I'am sure you will not agree since you are part of the problem needing a education on CONSERVATISM and WHY IT WILL SAVE AMERICA AGAIN!
"ALWAYS",

No, not for just an hour, not for just a day, not for just a year, but ALWAYS!

SEE YOU IN 2010, WHEN WE BEGIN, AT THE BALLOT BOX!! TAKING AMERICA BACK!!, KENYA BELIEVE IT!!! OBAMA CANNOT GOLF IS WAY INTO HISTORY!! THE GAME OF GOLF IS JUST TO HONORABLE!! ASK TIGER!!

When you first posted this I thought you were kidding, but I guess that you're not now.

Mao would be delighted with your ideas, he did much the same thing in China by "re-educating" people who didn't agree with him. So basically what you are suggesting is that you will take the Constitutional rights away from a third to a half of the American public because they don't agree with you? More than 120,000,000 will need re-education under your plan, how will you locate these people and how will you fund their re-education? Sounds like it wil cost a lot of money and take a vast new government program, won't it?

I suppose the other thing I wonder about is what's makes your view the "right" one for America and millions of other Americans wrong? Got any proof? I know that you aren't well educated since you call this a "Christian nation" when it is not and never has been.

I was intrigued by your "admitted America haters" comment, I don't know of any of them, got proof? And what State Controlled media would you be refering to exactly?

I also note that you haven't really explained what you'll do to the people who resist re-education. You remind me of a guy I knew once who thought that all the people with AIDS should be quarantined until I pointed out that it would require using New Zealand to have enough room to accomplish this. You, my friend, are way out in the ozone if you think that ignoring our Constitution and instituting Communist Mao techniques will save America.

 

[always]

When you first posted this I thought you were kidding, but I guess that you're not now.

Mao would be delighted with your ideas, he did much the same thing in China by "re-educating" people who didn't agree with him. So basically what you are suggesting is that you will take the Constitutional rights away from a third to a half of the American public because they don't agree with you? More than 120,000,000 will need re-education under your plan, how will you locate these people and how will you fund their re-education? Sounds like it wil cost a lot of money and take a vast new government program, won't it?

I suppose the other thing I wonder about is what's makes your view the "right" one for America and millions of other Americans wrong? Got any proof? I know that you aren't well educated since you call this a "Christian nation" when it is not and never has been.

I was intrigued by your "admitted America haters" comment, I don't know of any of them, got proof? And what State Controlled media would you be refering to exactly?

I also note that you haven't really explained what you'll do to the people who resist re-education. You remind me of a guy I knew once who thought that all the people with AIDS should be quarantined until I pointed out that it would require using New Zealand to have enough room to accomplish this. You, my friend, are way out in the ozone if you think that ignoring our Constitution and instituting Communist Mao techniques will save America.

BUT!!! , It is YOUR arrogrant friend , Obama who subverts OUR CONSTITUTION and intends to enslave our population .ie Obamism Health Control Bill with Death Juries!! Wake Up , Sleepy Head!

 

[PLC1]

BUT!!! , It is YOUR arrogrant friend , Obama who subverts OUR CONSTITUTION and intends to enslave our population .ie Obamism Health Control Bill with Death Juries!! Wake Up , Sleepy Head!

You want to exert total control over "misfits" who disagree with your point of view and can't be "reeducated", and then you say it is Obama who wants to subvert our Constitution and enslave the population?

I'm afraid your views, then ones you think everyone should have, are a bit inconsistent.

 

[GenSeneca]

I wanted to post a reply to this thread earlier but I needed to choose my words wisely in order to convey my thoughts with clarity.

we're becoming increasingly polarized.

There is a reason why people are so divided, the legal monopoly of force.

At the founding of our nation, people were bitterly divided on many issues but there was one concept that brought them together, individual rights. They understood that so long as we wanted to be a civilized society, the use of force against any individual must be barred. No individual or group could use force against any other individual or group and to protect the rights of every individual, our government was instituted among men.

That government was given a legal monopoly on the use of force but to prevent individuals from using that legal monopoly to employ force against other individuals, government was barred from violating the individual rights of any citizen. The only time government, or individuals, may legally use force, is in self defense and only against those who initiated the use of force.

Consent of the governed is derived from this concept of respecting individual rights. If you and your neighbor should disagree, neither of you are allowed to initiate the use of force to settle the dispute. Your neighbor would pose no threat to you whatsoever, no matter what his religion or political ideology, you would know that he cannot use force against you and therefore cannot make you do anything against your will.

anyone who disagrees... are not just people with a different philosophy... just evil.

Any individual who does not respect individual rights, is evil... no matter what their philosophy. The only way we can once again come together as a nation is by uniting around the concept of individual rights.

While our government was once banned from initiating its legal use of force against the public, that is no longer the case. Slowly, over time, individuals have used government to initiate the "legal" use force against legally unarmed victims, violating the entire purpose of our constitutional republic.

Your neighbor is still barred from initiating the use of force against you but he doesn't have to beat you with a stick to get you to act in accordance with his wishes, he can now have government violate your rights for him and its considered legal.

Lets take two example neighbors, one wants to force his neighbor to live as a Vegan, the other wants to force his neighbor to live as a Christian. Neither one wants to be forced to live as his neighbor sees fit, only to be left alone.

Since government is no longer limited to protecting the individual rights of its citizens, and instead has been granted the "legal" power to initiate the use force against unarmed victims, both neighbors see that their only chance to live as they see fit lies in gaining, and holding, control of government.

While some make calls for compromise thinking it will help resolve the situation, they are 100% wrong. Compromise will only exacerbate the problem. In the example of the two neighbors, compromise will only result in both neighbors being forced to accept that the other neighbor has some "right" to dictate how he should live his life. So long as neither neighbor is violating the individual rights of the other, government should have no say in the matter and no role whatsoever.

If national unity is really your concern, if you really are looking to live in a civilized society, then we need to once again ban government from initiating its legal monopoly on force against a legally unarmed population. Its only by limiting governments power that we can stop fearing our neighbor and once again be free to live our life as we see fit to live it.

 

[Gipper]

This is a great article and website. It spells out very clearly the extremism of the Dem party. And, its long involvement in slavery, abortion, and eugenics. Be forewarned. Reading this might result in sleepless nights and considerable vomiting.

DEMOCRAT: THE PARTY OF MURDER, RACISM, AND HATE
Gary P.
Published 01/06/2010 - 4:00 a.m. CST

The modern day democrat/communist party is nothing more than a group of malcontents, bent on destroying the very fabric of American society, all of the things that make America great.

Obama, Clinton, Pelosi and nearly all of those now in power at the Democrat party are followers of both Margaret Sanger and Alinsky. Sanger is the founder of Planned Parenthood a friend of the KKK, proponent of eugenics, black genocide and pregnancy only if the potential mother is licensed to breed by the federal government. Are they all truly Evil or just outhouse rat crazy?

They attacked her at every step. They attacked her husband, they attacked her children, they attacked her friends. We’ve not seen anything like it in modern history. The attacks were vile, vicious and incredibly over the top. They also used this time honored Alinsky “Rule“:

“Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.”
Of course, Alinsky didn’t introduce hate into the democrat party, or even communism. FDR was a closet communist, or if you prefer a more charitable term, a socialist, not that there is any real difference, all of the isms, liberalism, socialism, fascism, and communism are always spectacular failures, every time they are tried.

No, the democrat/communist party has a long legacy of hate, violence, and racism. And that’s what I really want to talk about today. The lead photo in this piece is one of Margaret Sanger, the democrat/communist icon of the abortion death cult the democrat/communists lovingly refer to as the “pro-choice movement.“

It also lines up quite nicely with what Sarah Palin famously called “death panels, ” the rationing of health care to the elderly, disabled, and chronically ill. So important are these “death panels” to the democrat/communist party, that Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid,knowing that when they take power, repealing ObamaCare will be job one for Republicans, placed a provision that would make it virtually impossible to take the “death panels” provisions out of the bill, even if the entire bill was somehow repealed.
Black Genocide is a great reference website, I encourage everyone to explore it and learn more about the institutional racism, hate, and murder practiced by the democrat/communist party.

This thinking is very much alive and well in the Obama White House. As Michelle Malkin reported back in July of 2009, John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar is a stark raving lunatic, pretty much like everyone else that works for the White House. Eugenics is a special kind of evil and as Malkin points out, Holdren is a staunch supporter:

“Looks like Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg isn’t the only one who’s been channeling eugenicist Margaret Sanger.

“Internet sleuth Zombie has a new report on John Holdren, President Obama’s science czar:

“Forced abortions. Mass sterilization. A ‘Planetary Regime’ with the power of life and death over American citizens.

“The tyrannical fantasies of a madman? Or merely the opinions of the person now in control of science policy in the United States? Or both?

 

[top gun]

BUT!!! , It is YOUR arrogrant friend , Obama who subverts OUR CONSTITUTION and intends to enslave our population .ie Obamism Health Control Bill with Death Juries!! Wake Up , Sleepy Head!

AMAZING!

After all Bush & the Republicants did stripping away American citizens Civil Liberties and then justified TORTURING anyone they wanted that wasn't an American you sit there and blowviate BS about a fair and decent President like Obama wanting Health Insurance Reform so Americans can get affordable healthcare and not be declined for preexisting conditions and other health insurance company tricks.

You haven't a single clue about right & wrong my friend.

 

[PLC1]

I wanted to post a reply to this thread earlier but I needed to choose my words wisely in order to convey my thoughts with clarity.


There is a reason why people are so divided, the legal monopoly of force.

At the founding of our nation, people were bitterly divided on many issues but there was one concept that brought them together, individual rights. They understood that so long as we wanted to be a civilized society, the use of force against any individual must be barred. No individual or group could use force against any other individual or group and to protect the rights of every individual, our government was instituted among men.

That government was given a legal monopoly on the use of force but to prevent individuals from using that legal monopoly to employ force against other individuals, government was barred from violating the individual rights of any citizen. The only time government, or individuals, may legally use force, is in self defense and only against those who initiated the use of force.

Consent of the governed is derived from this concept of respecting individual rights. If you and your neighbor should disagree, neither of you are allowed to initiate the use of force to settle the dispute. Your neighbor would pose no threat to you whatsoever, no matter what his religion or political ideology, you would know that he cannot use force against you and therefore cannot make you do anything against your will.



Any individual who does not respect individual rights, is evil... no matter what their philosophy. The only way we can once again come together as a nation is by uniting around the concept of individual rights.

While our government was once banned from initiating its legal use of force against the public, that is no longer the case. Slowly, over time, individuals have used government to initiate the "legal" use force against legally unarmed victims, violating the entire purpose of our constitutional republic.

Your neighbor is still barred from initiating the use of force against you but he doesn't have to beat you with a stick to get you to act in accordance with his wishes, he can now have government violate your rights for him and its considered legal.

Lets take two example neighbors, one wants to force his neighbor to live as a Vegan, the other wants to force his neighbor to live as a Christian. Neither one wants to be forced to live as his neighbor sees fit, only to be left alone.

Since government is no longer limited to protecting the individual rights of its citizens, and instead has been granted the "legal" power to initiate the use force against unarmed victims, both neighbors see that their only chance to live as they see fit lies in gaining, and holding, control of government.

While some make calls for compromise thinking it will help resolve the situation, they are 100% wrong. Compromise will only exacerbate the problem. In the example of the two neighbors, compromise will only result in both neighbors being forced to accept that the other neighbor has some "right" to dictate how he should live his life. So long as neither neighbor is violating the individual rights of the other, government should have no say in the matter and no role whatsoever.

If national unity is really your concern, if you really are looking to live in a civilized society, then we need to once again ban government from initiating its legal monopoly on force against a legally unarmed population. Its only by limiting governments power that we can stop fearing our neighbor and once again be free to live our life as we see fit to live it.

Very good and thoughtful post. In principle, we agree on what you have said. I'm not so sure we would agree on the details of just how the government is eroding individual rights, but I think your philosophy is right on.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

BUT!!! , It is YOUR arrogrant friend , Obama who subverts OUR CONSTITUTION and intends to enslave our population .ie Obamism Health Control Bill with Death Juries!! Wake Up , Sleepy Head!

I haven't seen any proof of those things. Our govenment has been gradually subverting the Constitution for a long time. King George spied on Americans against the law, set up secret prisons and tortured people, and he lied us into a war.

What you are suggesting is to do a Mao-approach and disenfrachise half to a third of the whole American nation. Nothing supports this draconian action.

 

[mogur]

I haven't seen any proof of those things. Our govenment has been gradually subverting the Constitution for a long time. King George spied on Americans against the law, set up secret prisons and tortured people, and he lied us into a war.

What you are suggesting is to do a Mao-approach and disenfranchise half to a third of the whole American nation. Nothing supports this draconian action.

Hear, hear. Obama is a breath of fresh air. He is not the savior of liberals. He is perpetuating the patriot act, and absolving telecoms from perverting privacy laws. Oh, well, I'll take him over goofy, and the long precedent of presidential tyranny.

So, reps, how is your anti-favorite socialist doing? Not Reich wing enough? Well, you do need to grow balls and tell us your version of health care, and your version of 'homeland' security. Is Obama a pussy, or too hard on the spooks? I think Obama was too hard on the beaver, last night; however, the buck hasn't stopped, yet. But when it does, Obama will claim responsibility, I hope.

And you can't fault him for trying to fix the problem, until he disavows the fault. If he does, then have at him.

 

[GenSeneca]

Very good and thoughtful post. In principle, we agree on what you have said.

Thanks for the compliment. This thread could be significant if participants focused on the moral and philosophical implications at the root of the divisive nature of politics... But they are too busy trying to paint their team as being the lesser of two evils to comprehend the gravity of my statements, that we need to eliminate evil from both parties and we can only do that if both sides agree on the good.

I'm not so sure we would agree on the details of just how the government is eroding individual rights, but I think your philosophy is right on.

Its the concept of looking at rights as a bundle of sticks, perhaps that is a concept of rights that you have, and that is why you fail to see the erosion of our rights.

 

[PLC1]

Thanks for the compliment. This thread could be significant if participants focused on the moral and philosophical implications at the root of the divisive nature of politics... But they are too busy trying to paint their team as being the lesser of two evils to comprehend the gravity of my statements, that we need to eliminate evil from both parties and we can only do that if both sides agree on the good.

Yes, the attempt to paint their team as the lesser of evils is exactly what I'm talking about. It's actually more than that, it is painting their team as all good, and the other team as totally evil.

Its the concept of looking at rights as a bundle of sticks, perhaps that is a concept of rights that you have, and that is why you fail to see the erosion of our rights.

Oh, I see the erosion of rights. There is the patriot Act and the Asset Forfeiture laws that lead the charge. Too few are willing to pay the price of liberty: Eternal vigilance.

 

[dogtowner]

I haven't seen any proof of those things. Our govenment has been gradually subverting the Constitution for a long time. King George spied on Americans against the law, set up secret prisons and tortured people, and he lied us into a war.

What you are suggesting is to do a Mao-approach and disenfrachise half to a third of the whole American nation. Nothing supports this draconian action.

You realize that there is nothing new about "secret prisons" don't you ? That stuff goes back to the Cold War.

Lincoln really was the first to significantly subvert the Constitution so yes, nothing new there.