Define conservatism

[palerider]

Right: SOME Muslims. That is what I reiterate to you ceaselessly. But you insist upon painting them all with the same brush, which is the very definition of prejudice.

Some muslims. OK. What percentage of muslims do you believe are not prepared to follow the prophet's command and fight the infidel until he either submits or is dead?

My research suggests that somewhere between 10% and 12% of muslims today are actively engaged in violence against the infidel. Excluding that group, my research suggests that between 25% and 55% of those left, support violence against whichever group the first group says is in need of allah's wrath.

At first glance, 10% to 12% doesn't seem to be a threatening number. After all, "most" muslims don't strap on bombs or set remote bombs, but put 10% to 12% into historical context. In 1917, about 3% of russians were communists, and in 1924 about 3% of germans were nazis. A small group that is sufficiently zealous and violent can lead entire nations.

The qur'an is a declaration of war against all nations who don't bow to allah and his prophet. And while the majority of muslims are not an immediate danger to us as jihadists, it is clear that they are afraid of the 10% to 12% who are and are not likely to do anything at all about it.

I have a Muslim friend at MySpace. I will come back and show you that person's most recent blog and you can see for yourself the issues which preoccupy her and many of her fellow Muslims today. Boy will you be surprised.

Are you sure your muslim friend at myspace isn't just playing you? Do you know what is in his/her heart? Do you even know for sure that he/she is a muslim?

Now, you told me a day or two ago that you had been pointing out my wrong information "since this thing began".
Probably only one more example of outrageous hyperbole from you, but I'm going to take the bait and ask you to show me ONE item of information you have proved wrong in my posts, other than my having left out three words in the formal name of an era in Spanish history.

Read lilly. Every post I have made to you has been to correct the wrong information you are working from. I am not going to go back and reiterate every post that I have made so far.

*You have failed to tell me why a Jewish Heritage course for Jewish teenagers - written by Jewish scholars - would be misrepresenting the experience of Jews under Islamic Rule in Spain.

Why would any course teach incorrect information? Are you going to argue that every course teaches the truth, the whole truth, and nothting but the truth? There are some jews who would be willing to give up israel just to get along. Such people would have an interest in indoctrinating young people to the same attitutde.

*You have failed to tell me why European 19th century Romantics would have some interest in euphemizing the deeds of Muslims to other Europeans, as per the allged "myth" of Andalusia.

Why did 19th century romantics have an enterest in euphemizing anything? They were romantics were they not? That is what they did. The very fact that they were romantics should preclude your asking why they might have attempted to rewrite history in a romantic light.

euphemism*You have tried to dismiss the Catholic Encyclopedia author, simply because his opinion was that the Hadith is of doubtful historical value and you happen to disagree with that remark.[/quote]

I didn't dissagree with is remark about the hadith. The qur'an disagreed with his remark. And the books of the qur'an disagree with his entire notion of who mohammed was and what he was like.

*You have disparaged the British commentator's credibility but failed to tell me why on earth he would be interested in lying to a world who could largely have not cared less back then about whether Islam were spread at swordpoint or not.

Lilly, what the british comentator said about islam being spread by the sword when the books of the qur'an clearly tell about how it was spread by the sword. How would I possibly know what a person's motivations are for lying? I have no idea what motivates you to ignore the fact of islam in favor of the fantasy of islam. Maybe the truth is just to brutal for you to accept considering that you have to live in the same world with them.

 

[palerider]

In fact the only reason I even went off on this tangent with you is that I couldn't believe you were actually arguing that ALL Muslims are like that.
But you were. And obviously you will continue to believe it until someone comes here who has enough time to disabuse you of your erroneous notions one by one.

I never said all muslims were like that. But I did provide verse from the books of the qur'an that said that good muslims were like that. You have clearly reading things into my comments that I have never said.

If I run across a book of things which did NOT happen between 622 and 1000 AD, I'll be sure and do that.

Looking into one that describes things that DID happen during those years should be sufficient. The information that I gave you is accurate.

After all, it is not as though the source of your timeline included any footnotes.

Lilly, I used that source because it is one of the most thoroughly documented sources that I have run across on the internet. He documents everything he says. Nothing goes without corroboration.

If you and I were discussing, say, the Battle of Gettysburg. If I said that it was fought between the Union and Confederate armies and lasted from July 1 through July 3 in the year of 1863, it really isn't necessary for me to provide documentation for a statement like that. Siince I gave you names, and dates, you can easily check to see that it is true or not.

Likewise, history books that give names, dates, and places tend not to footnote every reference to historical fact. If they did, the footnote section would be larger than the book itself.

And when he says that the books of the qur'an require this, or that; or that muslims do this or that because it is what the qur'an requires they do, he cites book and verse in the books of the qur'an that say what he is describing.

If we are discussing christianity, and I say that we do this or that because we are directed to in this book that verse, I could hardly be expected to have to provide you with a footnote from some other author that also found that we do this or that because of what he believes the same verse means.

I am quite sure there are conflicting accounts of the history. But my objection lo these several days has not been about inaccuracies

To date, you have not pointed out any inaccuracies. If there are any, I am interested in knowing what they are so I can do further research if need be. Now you have made the claim of inaccuracies, you really should point them out, or withdraw the comment.

And once again, complaining about any source is irrealavent to the argument. Either the information is true or it is not.

 

[palerider]

[I have come back (the next day) to take out a good deal of the commentary which was inept in my opinion because all it does is to repeat the points made, as though it were addressed to a real dum dum]

Islam - The Religion Of Peace

Ishaq:327 "Allah said, 'A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion."

Qur'an 8:7, Wipe the Infidels out to the last

Qur'an 8:39, So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam

So we have a disconnect with the words said about the religion and the nature of the religion from the very beginning. But lets go on.

1. Introduction.

Islam is in fact a religion that promotes peace and understanding among people of all faiths, and it strongly prohibits all forms of violence and aggression against all people regardless of their faith or race.

2. Islam Prohibits Violence and Aggression, and stands for Peace and Justice.

Islam clearly prohibits all kinds and forms of aggression and violence against anyone, except in self-defense. Islam is a practical religion, meant to be implemented in every aspect of our life. Therefore, it realizes the fact that a person who commits aggression and violence against others will not cease these actions unless they are deterred by similar actions taken against them.

Qur'an 9:5 When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them [torture them], and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war. But if they relent, performing their devotional obligations and paying the zakat tax, then open the way. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." The Islamic god said, "I created Islam to start fights that will kill, enslave, and torture people by way of deceptive ambush. Surrender, or I will have Muslims terrorize you.

Qur'an 47:4 When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.

Qur'an 8:39 So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (non-Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone in the whole world.

Does it strike you as strange Lilly, that when you find places that write about islam being a religion of peace, that they tend not to substantiate their fantasies with writing from the books of the qur'an or if they do, that there is very little that they can use while writers that write about the brutal and aggressive nature of islam tend to do so with literally thousands of verses from the books of the qur'an and documented history? The fact is that there is precious little in the books that can be used to document peaceful islam.

Islam also places very high importance on justice, and allows for aggressors and unjust people be punished accordingly, unless they repent before they are brought to justice. At the same time, Islam encourages people to forgive those who have wronged them whenever possible.

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, and do not transgress; for Allah loveth not transgressors." [Quran 2:190].

"But if they cease (fighting you), Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Quran 2:192].

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)." [Quran 8:61].

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

Muslim:C9B1N33 The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.


Peace to muslims is the infidel on his knees submitting to the prophet and allah. The very act of not doing so is percieved as aggressive to islam.

 

[Friendindeed]

Is there a specific verse that requires honor killing? No. Does the qur'an instruct its adherents to kill those who do not follow the "moral" dictates of the qur'an? Yes. And you might note that those who are not muslims who engage in honor killing have been living in close proximity to muslims for a very long time. Traditions have a way of jumping across cultures, especially when one culture is required by its religion to kill the other culture if it does not follow allah's way.

If they are required to kill anyone that does not follow allah's way then they sure have a lot of work ahead of them in India. If they all obey that rule or else keep quiet while 12% obey it then why are so many people being allowed to stay alive in Indai.

 

[Friendindeed]

To date, you have not pointed out any inaccuracies. If there are any, I am interested in knowing what they are so I can do further research if need be. Now you have made the claim of inaccuracies, you really should point them out, or withdraw the comment.

Actually you're wrong there.

She didn't make a claim of inaccuracies except for those three.
She said her objection was not about inaccuracies it was about how you would not disclose the source of your timeline.

What do you say about the three, you say her sources are lying but you don't know why they would lie.
Kind of a standoff.

Quote mining from the Qu'ran can obviouly be done to support either side of this argument.

 

[Friendindeed]

Palerider all the verses you came up with do say what you intend.

I would not try to say that they are not in the Koran I don't think anyone is saying that.

The point is that they are not followed literally by most Muslims.

You are taking it too literally in my opinion. It would be the same thing if somebody said all Christians wanted to execute tarot readers jut because some do.

 

[palerider]

What do you say about the three, you say her sources are lying but you don't know why they would lie.
Kind of a standoff.

Except that her sources picture of islam doesn't match the history. We are back to the romantic author bit.

Quote mining from the Qu'ran can obviouly be done to support either side of this argument.

The side that tries to paint a picture of peaceful islam will run out of material long before the side that is portraying islam more accurately even gets warmed up.

 

[palerider]

If they are required to kill anyone that does not follow allah's way then they sure have a lot of work ahead of them in India. If they all obey that rule or else keep quiet while 12% obey it then why are so many people being allowed to stay alive in Indai.

How many is 12% of a billion and a half Friendindeed? We are not talking about a trivial number of people. And about half of the remainder, while not actively engaging in the violence, do condone it. You can try to trivialize the numbers if you like, but it hardly makes your case.

 

[palerider]

Palerider all the verses you came up with do say what you intend.

I don't intend for them to say anyting. They say what they say and if you spend any time at all listening to the imans and spiritual leaders calling for violence, it is these verses that are being used to justify it.

The point is that they are not followed literally by most Muslims.['/quote]

They are followed literally by about 180,000,000 zealots. That is a dedicated and motivated army far larger than the chinese army and another 369,000,000either support their actions completely or are too terrified to ever speak out.

You are taking it too literally in my opinion. It would be the same thing if somebody said all Christians wanted to execute tarot readers jut because some do.

When was the last time a christian executed a tarrot reader and spoke out that tarrot was the reason he did it? I would be happy to go head to head with you if you want to provide news articles of christian terror vs islamic terror. 180,000,000 muslims actively seeking martyrdom so that they can go to allah and get their 72 virgins in a VW microbus is pretty literal if you ask me.

 

[Friendindeed]

Except that her sources picture of islam doesn't match the history. We are back to the romantic author bit.

Am I the only one that sees the irony here ?

You write again and again that criticizing a source is not an adequate response.

But criticizing the source is the only response you have given to all three pieces of evidence against your statements.

For one thing, I would think a "romantic" christian author would be more inclined to glorify the christians at the expense of the muslims, instead of the other way around.

 

[Friendindeed]

How many is 12% of a billion and a half Friendindeed? We are not talking about a trivial number of people. And about half of the remainder, while not actively engaging in the violence, do condone it. You can try to trivialize the numbers if you like, but it hardly makes your case.

I accepted your figure of 10% to 12% on faith, you did not show me your research.

 

[Friendindeed]

I don't intend for them to say anyting. They say what they say and if you spend any time at all listening to the imans and spiritual leaders calling for violence, it is these verses that are being used to justify it.

The point is that they are not followed literally by most Muslims.

They are followed literally by about 180,000,000 zealots. That is a dedicated and motivated army far larger than the chinese army and another 369,000,000either support their actions completely or are too terrified to ever speak out.

Then why not answer the question I asked you about India ?

 

[palerider]

Am I the only one that sees the irony here ?

You write again and again that criticizing a source is not an adequate response.

I do. But then, I don't just write that a source is not accurate. I provide plenty of documentation to corroborate that her source is not accurate. I provided history. Names, places, dates, etc., that simply do not jibe with peaceful islamic rule in spain. There is a profound difference between simply complaining that a source is bias and providing documentary evidence that a source is biased.

But criticizing the source is the only response you have given to all three pieces of evidence against your statements.

Hardly. Unless someone can demonstrate in some real way that the history that I provided is wrong, my post alone stands in stark contrast to the romantic view as presented in the andalusian myths. Both simply can not be true.

For one thing, I would think a "romantic" christian author would be more inclined to glorify the christians at the expense of the muslims, instead of the other way around.

You think so? By her own admission, Lilly grew up catholic but eagerly defends islam even though islam has been killing christians for about as long as it has existed.

 

[palerider]

Then why not answer the question I asked you about India ?

Answer what about india? Why every person who doesn't follow islam to the letter has not been killed? Why hasn't every person everywhere who doesn't follow islam to the letter been killed? The answer is they are killing as fast as they can until they can get their hands on some weapons that are superior to what they have now. Biological agents, chemical agents, a nuclear device perhaps. At that time, they will be able to get to far more infidels than they can at the present time.

Do you believe for a second that islamic zealots are trying to procure WMD for exactly that reason?

 

[palerider]

These are the wonderful ideals of Islam:

To pursue peace with everyone including past enemies, except when they fight the Muslims and refuse peace, then Muslims are allowed to fight in self-defense.

Qur'an 8:39, So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam

Peace to muslims means that you must bow to mecca and worship allah. If you don't, you are an aggressor and they are allowed to fight. They are called upon to rid the world of all religions except islam and fighting other religions constitutes self defense to them.

To ensure that we always apply justice and never transgress against others even if they are our enemies.

Bukhari:V5B59N516 "When Allah’s Apostle fought the battle of Khaybar, or when he raided any other people, we raised their voices crying, 'Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'

This, Lilly, is the fact of islam. The qur'an itself says that those who do not embrace this way of life are not equal to those who do.

To repel evil actions with good actions, in order to replace hatred with an intimate friendship.

Qur'an 5:51 "O believers, do not hold Jews and Christians as your allies. They are allies of one another; and anyone who makes them his friends is one of them."

3. Islamic Principle: Living Peacefully with All Nations and Peoples. [q/uote]

Qur'an 8:7, Wipe the Infidels out to the last

Qur'an 8:39 So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (non-Muslims) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone in the whole world.

You can only be at peace with islam when you embrace islam.

The verse mentioned below informs us that we were created and made into various nations and tribes so that we may get to know each other, and not so that we may despise and hate each other. Then we are reminded of the the fact that the best of us in God's eyes are those who are most righteous.

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)." [Quran 49:13].

Qur'an 4:95 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard [Jihad], fighting in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard [Jihad], fighting with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers those [Jihadists] who strive hard and fight above those [pacifists] who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.

Qur'an 5:33 The punishment for those who oppose Allah and His Prophet, making mischief in the land, is to kill them or crucify them. Or to have a hand on one side and a foot on the other cut off. Or to banish them from the land. Such is their disgrace in this world and in the hereafter, their doom will be dreadful.... The unbeliever.

This wonderful principle of Islam makes it clear that there is no single people, race, or nation that is better than others. God created us all equal. In God's eyes, the best of us are the most righteous and most kind.

Qur'an 9:5 When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them [torture them], and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war. But if they relent, performing their devotional obligations and paying the zakat tax, then open the way. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." The Islamic god said, "I created Islam to start fights that will kill, enslave, and torture people by way of deceptive ambush. Surrender, or I will have Muslims terrorize you.

Qur'an 8:7, Wipe the Infidels out to the last

Qur'an 8:39, So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam

Qur'an 47:4 When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.

4. Islamic Principle: There is no Compulsion in Religion

The verse from the Qur'an which states this principle of no compulsion in religion is the following:


"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [Quran 2:256].

Qur'an 5:33 The punishment for those who oppose Allah and His Prophet, making mischief in the land, is to kill them or crucify them. Or to have a hand on one side and a foot on the other cut off. Or to banish them from the land. Such is their disgrace in this world and in the hereafter, their doom will be dreadful.... The unbeliever.

Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.'"

Muslim:C9B1N33 The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.

Qur'an 9:5 When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them [torture them], and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war. But if they relent, performing their devotional obligations and paying the zakat tax, then open the way. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." The Islamic god said, "I created Islam to start fights that will kill, enslave, and torture people by way of deceptive ambush. Surrender, or I will have Muslims terrorize you.

Qur'an 8:7, Wipe the Infidels out to the last

Qur'an 8:39, So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam

Qur'an 47:4 When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.


Your blog doesn't reflect islam Lilly. It may reflect what the writer "wished" islam was like, but neither the scriptures in the books of the qur'an nor the daily reality reflect her wish. The fight against the infidels goes on unabated as it has since mohammad first made it up to justify his murdering, thieving, sadistic, pedophillic lifestyle.