Define conservatism

[Lilly Marlene]

I probably wouldn't because in those countries, people who don't follow islam to the letter are killed.

How was your morning in Dodge City Mr. Rider ?

I did not ask you if you would follow Islam to the letter or not if you lived there.
One could easily say the prayers, do the ablutions, etc., to avoid harrassment - and still have contempt for the religion.

The point I was making - obviously - is that if you were a citizen of, say, Kirkuk, you would most likely view Islam with great affection just as now you view your own religion.

[To be continued after I deal with a phone conference].

 

[palerider]

Typical. Look at the construction above. "It happens regularly ...I don't know of any case here in the US, but that is not to say..." Oh yes, it could happen some day. Thank you for illustrating just how feeble the grounds can be, for those who wish to malign an entire group.

Snippy today, aren't we? And yes, muslims are killed regularly by other muslims for religious infractions. I was conceeding that I am not aware of any instances here in this country.

The group has maligned itself already since its inception. I couldn't possibly malign it more by simply pointing out truths about it.

Point of information. You represented that any Muslim who spoke out against 'the violence' gets killed. Salman Rushdie wrote regarding the instance when Muhammed caved in to the yearning of his people to worship female deities. It had nothing to do with speaking out against violence. So I'm afraid that episode does not support your claim.

point of information yourself. The qur'an calls for anyone who speaks against islam to be killed. That goes beyond speaking out against the violence that islam does both to its own members and the "infidel" The episode reinforces my point that one need only speak against islam in order to be an enemy of islam.

Really gotta love hearing the incrimination of an entire religion, based on hearsay which Mr. Rider learns on right wing talk radio, don't you ?

The examples are legion. And who said anything about right wing radio? Unless of course, you are implying that a report of a muslim man tearing his wife's eyes out because she wouldn't submit to him would not be heard on radio that is not right wing in nature?

Notice no names are given for these two people even though the case has supposedly been prosecuted.

You really do have your panties in a bunch don't you? The man's name is Mohamed Hadfin his wife's name is Samira Bari's. He tore out her eyes in July of 2002 in the french city of Nimes.

I do not fabricate Lilly. I carefully research a subject before I engage in a conversation in it. If this case were unique, I would not have even mentioned it but muslims regularly maim, kill, and rape their wives and daughers because they have violated some tenet of islam (like showing their hair in public). What amazes, and disgusts, me is that you would apologize for people who feel that they are perfectly justified in killing a wife or daugher in the street because her hair was exposed in public.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Snippy today, aren't we? And yes, muslims are killed regularly by other muslims for religious infractions. I was conceeding that I am not aware of any instances here in this country.

You haven't shown any instances of that except for one which occurred in 1989 with Rushdie WHICH WAS A THEOLOGICAL ISSUE.
But let us suppose it is true ...Christians have been killed by one another for twenty centuries over religious differences.

The group has maligned itself already since its inception. I couldn't possibly malign it more by simply pointing out truths about it.

The above is nothing but fluff and rhetoric; it tells us nothing and adds nothing to the zero evidence you've provided.

point of information yourself. The qur'an calls for anyone who speaks against islam to be killed. That goes beyond speaking out against the violence that islam does both to its own members and the "infidel" The episode reinforces my point that one need only speak against islam in order to be an enemy of islam.

And the Bible calls for a son who speaks insolently to his parents ... to be stoned to death.
Oh yes, I know that when I brought that up in a prior post I revealed myself as a flaming liberal in your view.
Whatttt ever, it doesn't make it any less true.

And sure, you will probably reply by saying that that is from the Old Testament and is superceded now -

Well, let's look at something from the New Testament.
Christ told you to cut off your right hand or tear out your OWN right eye if it should cause you to commit a sin.

No one does this (unless you are conducting this debate with one eye right now).
And in the same way, any verses you might be able to show me from the Koran are not necessarily obeyed literally either.

The examples are legion. And who said anything about right wing radio? Unless of course, you are implying that a report of a muslim man tearing his wife's eyes out because she wouldn't submit to him would not be heard on radio that is not right wing in nature?

That sounds a lot more like a personal marital quarrel than a religious issue.

You really do have your panties in a bunch don't you? The man's name is Mohamed Hadfin his wife's name is Samira Bari's. He tore out her eyes in July of 2002 in the french city of Nimes.

I think you are getting a little personal there about the panties, Mr. Rider.
And it would not benefit your point even if you could tell me the addresses and birth dates of these two people because as I just pointed out, arguments over having sex do not fall into the realm of a religious differences.

If this case were unique, I would not have even mentioned it but muslims regularly maim, kill, and rape their wives and daughers because they have violated some tenet of islam (like showing their hair in public). What amazes, and disgusts, me is that you would apologize for people who feel that they are perfectly justified in killing a wife or daugher in the street because her hair was exposed in public.

Whoops, you forgot to show any evidence of this routine maiming, killing, and raping in the street.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Here is the key sentence Lilly, and the qur'an condemns him as a thieving, murdering, raping, torturing, pedophile terrorist. Read it sometime keeping in mind that it is the most reliable source for learning about his life.

Curious, is it not, that the Catholic Encyclopediist thinks the Koran is the most reliable source for information about Muhammed, and yet that same person wrote that he was merciful, forgiving, highly moral, and what all else I copied.

It almost sounds as though you and s/he have read two separate Korans.
Would you mind showing me the EXACT passage from the Koran (with verse numbers so I can verify it) ...which calls Muhammed a thieving murdering raping torturing pedophile terrorist ?

I realize that it would be a radical break with tradition for you to actually document something in this thread, but my time is not a renewable resource and there is no way I can dig through the entire Koran to find what you project to be in there.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Lilly, the qur'an itself describes islam as being spread by the sword.

Care to show me where it says that ?

Now which do you believe is the more credible source?

That's a tuffy.
Which one should I believe ...an Englishman with firsthand experience of the Muslims - who despite the well known jingoism of the Bloody Brits in that century still insisted that they never convert others at swordpoint ...

or some material from a website formally characterized as being Islamophobic ?

 

[Lilly Marlene]

I think both points of view are valid. It is not unreasonable for Lily to expect palerider to give a source when he makes statements as facts. But he has a point to that she could just go ahead and prove it wrong.

Apparently, in paleriderland it is very unreasonable for me to expect that.
But what can be done ?
As to going ahead and proving it wrong:

Thus far I have decimated his dogged denial of a Jewish flourishing under Muslim rule in Spain; and notice that I presented this information on a site used by Jewish people to school their children about Jewish heritage (the "thirteen" site).

I have also rendered nil the ceaseless hyperbolic character assassinations he flings at Muhammed, by showing the account from an unfriendly source - the Catholic church - which still acknowledges Muhammed's qualities of mercy, forgiveness, prayerfulness, sincerity, and the like.

Finally, I showed a first hand account by a European who spent time in the Holy Lands before the Balfour Declaration, who disagreed strenuously with Mr. Rider's notion that "Islam was spread by the sword".

I was told that if I could challenge the unsubstantiated contentions, then I should do that.
I have done that.

Lily on your first link it looks like it's supporting the point but I can't open the jewishgate links they gave. Maybe a technical problem right now. Have to go to work anyway. Be good you two.

They opened for me but it took some time.

 

[Friendindeed]

How was your morning in Dodge City Mr. Rider ?

I don't know if he was dodging the question as much as granting your point but under protest.

Both of you are being soreheads here, you should cool it.

 

[palerider]

Somebody sounds a little cranky !

Ya won't whine, huh ?
Well that is something which time will tell; after all there have been no occasions thus far in which I've posted two or three hundred years' worth of questionable 'facts' and then resolutely refused to substantiate any of them.

Lilly, I gave you names, dates and places to make it very easy to verify everything I have said.

Here, let me hold your hand and see if I can help you understand research. Take for example, my entry:

1090 CE: AlMoravids occupied all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands.

I go to google and do a search for al moravids. The search yields around 80 hits most of which idenify al moravids as islamic warriors, where they were from and what they did. There is little argument among the sources and most verify that at or around 1090 they occupied most of spain. This verifies my statement. If you believe I have presented questionable facts, then go down the list date by date, name by name, place by place and see that I have not fabricated one bit of information. Then try and jibe the carnage with your fanciful golden age of islamic rule in spain.



Alright then.
Henceforth - within this thread at least - the customary conventions of debate have been suspended by one Mr. Rider: it is to be regarded as merely so much whining from here on, if anyone should request documentation of alleged "facts".[/quote]

Clearly you don't know much about formal debate. If I say a thing that you disagree with, or believe I have fabricated, (especially a thing in which I have provided names, dates, and places), the onus is upon you to demonstrate that my positon is founded upon mistaken ideas. Like I have been doing with you since this began.

 

[Friendindeed]

Then try and jibe the carnage with your fanciful golden age of islamic rule in spain.

Nope you are off base on that one. Read that thirteen link. I told you in the begining you were not going to come out of that one in good shape, I told you she had the name wrong but the events right.

There is no advantage in pretending the other person is ignorant. That's what I mean by "sorehead". It demeans the both of you because only a fool would invest that much time arguing with someone they think is ignorant.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

palerider I found the site where you got the information and before elaborating on that, I have a question (please see private message).
I'll reserve my comments until after that.

 

[Friendindeed]

622 CE: Following the embarrassments of the Satanic Verses and hallucinogenic Night’s Journey aboard the flying ass, Muhammad was run out of Mecca. In his meeting with 12 warlords from Yathrib, today’s Medina at a waddi called Aqaba, the first Muslims "Pledge to wage war against all mankind," and the Islamic Era officially began.

623 CE: Muslims drew first blood, killing one Meccan and kidnapping another at Nakhla. They plundered their caravan and brought the booty back to Muhammad.

624 CE: Muhammad led the first Muslims out to plunder a Meccan caravan at Badr. They missed the target but encountered some Meccan merchants who had gone out to protect their business interests from the Islamic raiders. The Muslims killed 70 Meccan merchants, most of whom they were related to, and took almost that many Meccans captive. The hostages were ransomed back to their families, creating an Islamic precedent that is followed today. The Qur’an’s 8th surah is revealed as a situational scripture to justify fighting and stealing.

624 CE: Muhammad laid siege to the richest Jewish settlement in Yathrib. After forcing the Banu Qaynuqa into the desert to die, Muhammad stole their homes, land, businesses, farms, and treasure. The Qur’an’s 59th, 61st, 62nd, 63rd, and 64th surahs are revealed to beguile the Muslims into believing that what they were doing was religious and good.

625 CE: The Muslims continued to terrorize and rob the Meccans, so they went to Yathrib/Medina to stop the source of their pain. Thinking they had killed Muhammad at Uhud, as well as most of his jihadists, the Meccans returned home. Since the terrorist religion was an inch from being destroyed, Muhammad contrived the 3rd surah, in which Allah tells Muslims that he will kill those who don’t fight for Islam.

Those are a few of the items on your post 61

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2164&postcount=61

You said later in post 88 that you could give an anthology of where to look for these facts at the library. If I stop at the library today, what are some of the books that would have these stories ?

 

[palerider]

You said later in post 88 that you could give an anthology of where to look for these facts at the library. If I stop at the library today, what are some of the books that would have these stories ?

Start with Ta’rikh if you are looking for the oldest source straight from the horse's mouth so to speak, but any good history text can verify dates and events. I don't know of any one book that would cover them all. It is sort of a date by date thing.

 

[palerider]

On his commercial journeys to Syria and Palestine he became acquainted with Jews and Christians, and acquired an imperfect knowledge of their religion and traditions.

That is one way to put it considering that the bulk of the qur'an is lifted from Genisis and Exodus. Twisted and perverted, but that is the source.

His earliest and chief biographers are Ibn Ishaq (A.H. 151=A.D. 768), Wakidi (207=822), Ibn Hisham (213=828), Ibn Sa'd (230=845), Tirmidhi (279=892), Tabari (310-929), the "Lives of the Companions of Mohammed", the numerous Koranic commentators [especially Tabari, quoted above, Zamakhshari 538=1144), and Baidawi (691=1292)], the "Musnad", or collection of traditions of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (241=855), the collections of Bokhari (256=870), the "Isabah", or "Dictionary of Persons who knew Mohammed", by Ibn Hajar, etc. All these collections and biographies are based on the so-called Hadiths, or "traditions", the historical value of which is more than doubtful.

Hadith (الحديث transliteration: al-ḥadīth) are traditions relating to the words and deeds of Muhammad. Hadith collections are regarded as important tools for determining the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life, by all traditional schools of jurisprudence except the Quran Alone

Your author appears to have overlooked learning even the most basic truths of islam before he began to write. To suggest that hadiths are of doubtful historic value when in fact, the hadiths are regarded as important tools for learning the muslim way of life is a very basic error that throws his credibility into question.

 

[palerider]

You haven't shown any instances of that except for one which occurred in 1989 with Rushdie WHICH WAS A THEOLOGICAL ISSUE.
But let us suppose it is true ...Christians have been killed by one another for twenty centuries over religious differences.

No, lets not suppose its true, lets establish that it is true. You might begin learning the truth by doing a google search for the words "honor killing". Thousands of wives, daughters, and sons are killed every year for not living as the "prophet" said that they should live. Do a bit of reading on the subject and if you need more examples, I can provide them.

By the way, I have since found instances of honor killing in the US as well.

And the Bible calls for a son who speaks insolently to his parents ... to be stoned to death.

Tell you what. If you like, I will complie a list of newspaper articles that describe muslim men killing people who failed to live by the qur'an, and you complie a list of newspaper articles about children who have been stoned to death by orthodox parents for failure to live up to the Old testament, and we will see who has the larger list.

Here is my first contribution to that list. You are going to have to hurry up because this one alone puts you "thousands" behind.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

Well, let's look at something from the New Testament.
Christ told you to cut off your right hand or tear out your OWN right eye if it should cause you to commit a sin.

Do you recognize a difference between doing a thing to one's self and doing a thing to others?

And in the same way, any verses you might be able to show me from the Koran are not necessarily obeyed literally either.

Of course they are. Look at the news. muslims are happy to tell the camera that they have been directed by mohammed to kill the infidel so that is what they are doing.

I think you are getting a little personal there about the panties, Mr. Rider.
And it would not benefit your point even if you could tell me the addresses and birth dates of these two people because as I just pointed out, arguments over having sex do not fall into the realm of a religious differences.

Of course they do especially when one' religion demands that a woman submit to her husband on pain of death.

Whoops, you forgot to show any evidence of this routine maiming, killing, and raping in the street.

See honor killing. You might also check out honor rape wherein a woman might be subjected to a gang rape by male members of her family that goes on for days for some infraction she might have committed.

 

[palerider]

Curious, is it not, that the Catholic Encyclopediist thinks the Koran is the most reliable source for information about Muhammed, and yet that same person wrote that he was merciful, forgiving, highly moral, and what all else I copied.[/quote}

Yeah, leads me to believe that your source never read the books.

Would you mind showing me the EXACT passage from the Koran (with verse numbers so I can verify it) ...which calls Muhammed a thieving murdering raping torturing pedophile terrorist ?

No problem

Ishaq:288 "Allah divided the booty stolen from the first caravan after he made spoils permissible. He gave four-fifths to those He had allowed to take it and one-fifth to His Apostle."

Ishaq:289 "Muhammad summoned the Muslims and said, 'This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out and attack it. Perhaps Allah will give it to us as prey."

Ishaq:368 "Ashraf’s body was left prostrate. After his fall, all of the Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly to his home by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his demise with deviousness. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet

Ishaq:510 "When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, 'O Allah, Lord of the heavens and what they overshadow, and Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. We take refuge in Thee from its evil and the evil of its people. Forward in the name of Allah.' He used to say this of every town he raided."

Ishaq:511 "When the Apostle raided a people he waited until morning, and then he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night. When morning came and he did not hear the call to prayer, he rode and we rode with him. We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the Prophet and our army they cried, 'Muhammad with his force.' They turned tail and fled. The Apostle yelled, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed.' When we arrive at a people’s square, it is a bad morning for them."

Ishaq:511 "When Dihyah protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims."

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 "So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered Khaybar home by home. The first stronghold defeated was Naim. Next was Qamus, the community of Abi Huqayq. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah bt. Huyayy, the wife of Kinanah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself."

Ishaq: 676 "'You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, 'You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said, 'She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' 'No,' the Prophet answered. 'Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'"

Tabari VII:97 "The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Tabari VII:99 "When they got to Khaybar they went to Sallam’s house by night, having locked every door in the settlement on the inhabitants. He was in an upper chamber. His wife came out and asked who we were. We told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. She told us that her husband was in bed. We entered and bolted his door. His wife shrieked and warned him of us, so we ran at him with our swords as he lay on his bed. When we had smitten him Abdallah bore down his sword into his belly until it went right through him. 'By the God of the Jews, he is dead!' Never have I heard sweeter words than those. We returned to Allah’s Apostle and told him that we had killed his enemy. We disputed before him as to who had killed him, each of us laying claim to the deed. Muhammad demanded to see our swords and when he looked at them he said, 'It is the sword of Abdallah that killed him; I can see traces of food on it."


Bukhari:V5B59N516 "When Allah’s Apostle fought the battle of Khaybar, or when he raided any other people, we raised their voices crying, 'Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'


Tabari VII:29 "Abu Sufyan and the horsemen of the Quraysh were returning from Syria following the coastal road. When Allah’s Apostle heard about them he called his companions together and told them of the wealth they had with them and the fewness of their numbers. The Muslims set out with no other object than Sufyan and the men with him. They did not think that this raid would be anything other than easy booty."

Bukhari:V5B59N702 "Allah did not admonish anyone who had not participated in the Ghazwa [raid] of Badr, for in fact, Allah’s Apostle had only gone out in search of the Quraysh caravan so that he could rob it. But Allah arranged for the Muslims and their enemy to meet by surprise. I was at the Aqabah pledge with Allah’s Apostle when we gave our lives in submission, but the Badr battle is more popular amongst the people. I was never stronger or wealthier than I was when I followed the Prophet on a Ghazwa.'"

Ishaq:300/ Tabari VII:55 "Allah’s Messenger went out to his men and incited them to fight. He promised, 'Every man may keep all the booty he takes.' Then Muhammad said, 'By Allah, if any man fights today and is killed fighting aggressively, going forward and not retreating, Allah will cause him to enter Paradise.'"


How much of this do you want?