Define conservatism

[Lilly Marlene]

Some muslims. OK. What percentage of muslims do you believe are not prepared to follow the prophet's command and fight the infidel until he either submits or is dead?

You again !!

I thought you had finally come to your senses and given up


To answer your question, I think a whole lot of Muslims are willing to coexist.

Are you sure your muslim friend at myspace isn't just playing you? Do you know what is in his/her heart? Do you even know for sure that he/she is a muslim?

No she is not 'playing me' ...in fact it was I who invited HER. I was getting sick and tired of seeing so much generalization and antagonism against Muslims in the bulletins of some people who are really very nice in many other ways. That movie "Obsession" caused a lot of it.

I asked her and I asked a Muslim guy. I feel that with having them on my page, people can start to see that Muslims are just other people. Anyone who doesn't like it can delete me; no one has so far.
Anyway, they are both very sincere and altogether sweet people. If I thought you would give it half a chance, I would give you the urls to their pages.

Read lilly. Every post I have made to you has been to correct the wrong information you are working from. I am not going to go back and reiterate every post that I have made so far.

I didn't ask you to reiterate.
I was drawing your attention to the fact that you have not managed to PROVE that a single thing I've written is untrue.
Please recall that I mentioned the Wahabbhist agenda to you at the commencement of this sorry-go-round.
I have never maintained that no Muslims mean us harm.

My point has been - throughout this - that you should not be painting them all with the same broad brush.

Why would any course teach incorrect information?
................................

Why did 19th century romantics have an enterest in euphemizing anything?
.......................................

Lilly, what the british comentator said about islam being spread by the sword when the books of the qur'an clearly tell about how it was spread by the sword. How would I possibly know what a person's motivations are for lying?
.........................................

Can you begin to appreciate why this is so unprofitable ...to talk with you about this palerider ?
Look at you, thinking of a reason to dismiss each one of the three citations I quoted to you.

What else can be expected, when you use your leisure time immersing yourself in websites such as "Jihad Watch" or "Prophet of Doom" ?

I have no idea what motivates you to ignore the fact of islam in favor of the fantasy of islam. Maybe the truth is just to brutal for you to accept considering that you have to live in the same world with them.

I am fine with living in the same world with them.
Maybe the motivation should be that One Whom we all seem to forget too easily.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

I never said all muslims were like that. But I did provide verse from the books of the qur'an that said that good muslims were like that. You have clearly reading things into my comments that I have never said.

I wish I were. Please have a look at posts #56 through 58 of this thread. At that juncture of the conversation, I mentioned to you that I have spoken with two Muslims and I also mentioned Keith Ellison and I pointed out that none of them are "like that".

Your reply?

"Okay, that makes three".

And please recall your mantra throughout this entire thread:
"Radical Islam=Islam".

Lilly, I used that source because it is one of the most thoroughly documented sources that I have run across on the internet. He documents everything he says. Nothing goes without corroboration.

You're joking of course. He footnotes NOTHING.
His timeline is completely self reverential; go visit it again and see. All he ever says is "See blah blah blah, from Prophet of Doom", which is of course his own article.

To date, you have not pointed out any inaccuracies. If there are any, I am interested in knowing what they are so I can do further research if need be. Now you have made the claim of inaccuracies, you really should point them out, or withdraw the comment.

Withdraw WHAT comment ?

Palerider, you have just illustrated perfectly what a straw man argument is.

I did not make "the claim of inaccuracies" about Mr. Winn's timeline.

In fact, what I said IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS in my posts from March 24th, was that I was sure there are conflicting opinions but I do not have the time to fact check the whole timeline so I am willing to carry on AS THOUGH it were all true.

WHY do I think there are probably conflicting opinions ?
Because there were ample conflicting opinions about the three statements of yours which I DID check.

Now how on earth can you sit here and pretend I said otherwise?
Do you really take me for such a fool that I would do the same thing that I just called Smila on, in the Israel thread ?
If so, you are a poor judge of personalities.

And once again, complaining about any source is irrealavent to the argument. Either the information is true or it is not.

Then perhaps you should stop answering MY sources by telling me they are "lying".

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Palerider, I am finished going round and round with you about Muslims. After today I would like to get back to the thread topic. And if you paraphrase me incorrectly again, I will probably just disengage from this conversation entirely.

Before finishing about the Muslims ...I see you found more Koran verses that you think support your position.

I'll just copy one more because I am not going to spend the first days of Springtime searching through Holy Books for ammunition.

"Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabaeans, whoso believe in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness—their wage awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow." (K 2:62)

I also have a couple of other things; I hope you will look at them [I'll bring them one by one to you right now].

Alright first item ...a few out of many violent verses from the Bible:

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.



Second edit ...an article from a Catholic newsletter I hope you will read:

http://www.the-tidings.com/2006/0922/peacesym.htm



And finally, third edit ... a video which shows archeologic evidence for what you say is the "Myth" of Andalusia (you can go ahead and skip the first 12 minutes if you want]:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-768956312207897325&hl=en

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

Qur'an 8:39, So fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.

here are quotes from the bible and look how simple it is for me to accuse Judeo-christian religion as being evil too.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." -Jesus Christ

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus Christ

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Romans 1 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[palerider]

Psalms 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Matthew 10: 34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

Psalms 58:10 : The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

OK. Now provide a half a dozen or so news articles about people who have used these verses to justify killing people they don't even know or to justify thier ambition to wipe an entire people from the earth. Just 6 will make your point, keeping in mind that literally thousands of news stories are out there with regard to islam justifying their actions based on the qur'an.

 

[palerider]

here are quotes from the bible and look how simple it is for me to accuse Judeo-christian religion as being evil too.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." -Jesus Christ

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." -Jesus Christ

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Romans 1 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

OK. Your turn. How many news stories can you provide that describe Christians killing people they don't even know and using these verses as justification? How many can you provide that describe Christians using these verses as justification to kill anyone who is not Christian?

 

[Lilly Marlene]

OK. Now provide a half a dozen or so news articles about people who have used these verses to justify killing people they don't even know or to justify thier ambition to wipe an entire people from the earth. Just 6 will make your point, keeping in mind that literally thousands of news stories are out there with regard to islam justifying their actions based on the qur'an.

Nope, not going to do it.
There is no changing your mind with regard to Muslims because you have decided to see them as devil spawn.
BUT
I will call foul there where you claim that they have "the ambition to wipe an entire people from the earth".

FALSE.

Ahmidinejab was mistranslated. To be fair, the mistake was made by his own Iranian translators.
But the neocons have been gleefully running with it ever since then.

What he said was that the Israeli regime would be wiped form the pages of time, or something along those lines.

Iranians do not bear rancor towards Jews; what they are opposed to is the Zionist agenda.

Okay enough. It's 64 degrees with a breeze and I'm going outside.

 

[TVoffBrainOn]

OK. Now provide a half a dozen or so news articles about people who have used these verses to justify killing people they don't even know or to justify thier ambition to wipe an entire people from the earth. Just 6 will make your point, keeping in mind that literally thousands of news stories are out there with regard to islam justifying their actions based on the qur'an.

a christian nation waging war in a muslim world just about covers that.

 

[Friendindeed]

I do. But then, I don't just write that a source is not accurate. I provide plenty of documentation to corroborate that her source is not accurate. I provided history. Names, places, dates, etc., that simply do not jibe with peaceful islamic rule in spain. There is a profound difference between simply complaining that a source is bias and providing documentary evidence that a source is biased.

The "documentary evidence" you copied word for word comes from that one site which is very biased too and it's the only documentation you gave.

Also it seems clear that quote mining of the Qu'ran can be done by both sides as I said before.

You think so? By her own admission, Lilly grew up catholic but eagerly defends islam even though islam has been killing christians for about as long as it has existed.

Is it an admission for someone to say they are Catholic ? Since when ?
Is there some rule that says Catholics have to be against other religions ? I don't think so.
Christians spent centuries killing people over religion too as I believe Lily mentioned some time ago.

 

[Friendindeed]

Answer what about india? Why every person who doesn't follow islam to the letter has not been killed? Why hasn't every person everywhere who doesn't follow islam to the letter been killed? The answer is they are killing as fast as they can until they can get their hands on some weapons that are superior to what they have now. Biological agents, chemical agents, a nuclear device perhaps. At that time, they will be able to get to far more infidels than they can at the present time.

Do you believe for a second that islamic zealots are trying to procure WMD for exactly that reason?

They are trying to procure WMDs for the same reason we have WMDs. Because in this day and age any leader would want not his coutry to be at a disadvantage.

It is political bro, not religious.

 

[Friendindeed]

"Withdraw WHAT comment ?

Palerider, you have just illustrated perfectly what a straw man argument is.

I did not make "the claim of inaccuracies" about Mr. Winn's timeline.

In fact, what I said IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS in my posts from March 24th, was that -"


Heh palerider I tried to warn you that you would get your ass handed to you on that one.

 

[palerider]

Nope, not going to do it.
There is no changing your mind with regard to Muslims because you have decided to see them as devil spawn.
BUT
I will call foul there where you claim that they have "the ambition to wipe an entire people from the earth".

We both know that the reason you aren't going to do it is because you can't do it. If you could, you would gleefully slap me down with it.

And call foul all you like. Maybe you have the capacity to ignore literally dozens of stories in the news every day highlighting the violent nature of islam in favor of your romantic andalusian myths, but I don't. The reality is that most of the violence in the world today can be laid at the feet of islam.

Iranians do not bear rancor towards Jews; what they are opposed to is the Zionist agenda.

Which explains why they support and finance terrorism that kills jews indiscriminately as opposed to targeting only zionist interests?

 

[palerider]

a christian nation waging war in a muslim world just about covers that.

So show me some news articles that state clearly that we are waging a holy war against iraq as opposed to waging a war because the iraquis have flaunted UN resolution after resolution for over a decade.

It is clear that they are waging their war for religious reasons, because they say so. Provide some evidence that we are waging war for religious reasons.

 

[palerider]

The "documentary evidence" you copied word for word comes from that one site which is very biased too and it's the only documentation you gave.

Ad Homeniem attack again. Either the information is accurate or it is not. If it is inaccurate, kindly point out the historical inaccuracies. And if the information is correct, what other information is required?

Also it seems clear that quote mining of the Qu'ran can be done by both sides as I said before.

Yeah, and it also became painfully clear that those mining for quotes to support peaceful islam will run out of information long before the quotes for violent islam. Not to mention the reality of the daily news from all over the world.

Christians spent centuries killing people over religion too as I believe Lily mentioned some time ago.

And as I pointed out, that time is long past. Islam still has the mindset that it had in its early days and is behavinig in the same manner. To the best of my knowledge, (with some very far flung exceptions) islam is the only religion in the world that is going about killing in all nations in the name of their religion. If you can provide evidence that Christians are going about fighting a holy war against anyone, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[Friendindeed]

The IRA. Do I get to go to the head of the class ?