California Proposition 8

[ASPCA4EVER]

Ah, the failure of democracy speaks volumes. Remove their 'rights' in the first place, and there will be nothing left for them to squawk about. RAther a simple solution. Outlaw faggotry altogether, enforce it with military might, and ye shall have nothing but peace. I don't see a terrorist FAG BRIGADE happening on the horizon.

Awww Man...not another 'redneck/racist/lessor thinking human'...or is this just a 'gasoline bomb' to ignite the riot so you have someone to talk with...hmmm

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Ah, the failure of democracy speaks volumes. Remove their 'rights' in the first place, and there will be nothing left for them to squawk about. RAther a simple solution. Outlaw faggotry altogether, enforce it with military might, and ye shall have nothing but peace. I don't see a terrorist FAG BRIGADE happening on the horizon.

But who will be next? Maybe it will be redneck peckerwoods. Are you advocating Sharia Law? Mosaic Law? Mandatory attendance at church? Re-enslaving black people? Solving unemployment by outlawing women in the workplace? Preventing women from voting? Denying them the right to own property? Bedlams for mentally ill people? Persecuting left-handed people? Where does it end, this proud march back into the Dark Ages? Burning people at the stake?

 

[top gun]

Ah, the failure of democracy speaks volumes. Remove their 'rights' in the first place, and there will be nothing left for them to squawk about. RAther a simple solution. Outlaw faggotry altogether, enforce it with military might, and ye shall have nothing but peace. I don't see a terrorist FAG BRIGADE happening on the horizon.

Here's another idea!

Let's all get together an beat like a drum today's non existent Fascist military might!

Hell even when they had some military might they got crushed by good people joining together to all around the world. Shot and hung up by your heels... that's what happens to Right Wing Facists like Mussolini... or sometimes they don't even have that much class and just kill their girlfriend then themselves like the world's biggest coward Adolf Hilter.

All hat no cattle that's the Facist today.

 

[Sihouette]

California Proposition 8 Continued

Here's a spot to continue the debate that went on quite awhile before.

I'll kick-start it by including part of a debate going on elsewhere about the latest NY decision. I made some points. See if you agree or disagree.

Perhaps as more recruits join the ranks of the sexually deviant, there will be a "surge" to normalize what they do via marriage. Listen up kids, the "norms" you will aspire to are a-changin'.

And hence the visceral rejection on behalf of the majority.

In no time at all we'll be hearing from the polygamist lobby once the precident has cracked the mold. I think we should have incestuous relationships between at least consenting adults legitimized too. If one is sterilized, why should we deny them marriage?

No, I mean really, precisely why on the heels of homosexual marriage? [word your rebuttals carefully]

 

[Sihouette]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

The counter posed that it was "psychobabble". He did make a good point that we should keep the debate out of religion and in the realm of civil arenas. That's where it should stay.

I responded though thusly:

Dismissing the reasons why people resist disassembling the description of marriage into "whatever" between "consenting adults" is keeping your head in the sand.

This isn't psychobabble. The nature of deviant sexuality, its roots and potential to have a social contagion are at the very heart of this debate. Your dismissal is like saying you want to debate the use of drones in warfare without addressing the topic of computers deciding who lives and dies. That is the heart of that issue.

The heart of the deviant-marriage issue is one of origin, of the mechanics of deviant sexuality and its potential to affect us socially when normalized. You cannot dismiss the potent effects of child psychology when considering the matter; of imprinting, emulating. Ever see kids play house in preschool? I have. What they're doing is emulating norms to model themselves after in later life. Talk to ANY child handler about the mimicry phenomenon. It is how a homo sapiens learns virtually everything it does as an adult.

So like I said before, the debate isn't about whether or not deviants getting married will change our society permanently, it's whether or not you want this to happen. And the change will aggregate, it will increase the number of deviant sexuals within our population. Again, you can hang your hat on this. Whether or not you want this to happen, there's your debate.

You can dismiss the findings of sexual malleability across species in the AI industry too, but that doesn't make the findings any less potent when you extrapolate to homo sapiens using comparative psychology. What the findings indicate is that sexuality is malleable up to a given age, around puberty. The introduction of a given stimulus to elicit climax at this impressionable period, via classical conditioning [I'm not making this stuff up folks, read your psych manuals] has been demostrated in the AI industry ad nausuem to cause sexual fixation for release on said target object. They can be anything, literally. A dummy-mount for a bull, a pair of shoes for a man, you name it. A bull wasn't born looking for a stuffed pummel horse or another steer to mount and a man wasn't born looking for a pair of shoes to mount...they got that way...it was imprinted on them. And this imprinting process is complex and can include warping/molding factors like frustration, molestation, timing, inappropriate exposure....

And now we want to imprint deviant sexuality on future generations as normal, via the mimicry process in developing children. We're playing with fire.

And don't play dumb about polygamy either. If you have any doubts, consult with an attorney about how hard it will be to argue for polygamists getting married, or a brother and sister getting married as long as they are consenting adults. Forget people marrying their pets, these other issues are the closer matters to the barn door that will be kicked open a crack for future wedges to be inserted.

 

[Sihouette]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Followed by much badgering but no real lucid rebuttal on behalf of the counter arguments against my person..lol..

So I continued to answer in the following posts:

There are studies and then there is an industry who takes its findings to the bank every day and puts food on the table. As we all know, the fields of psychology are debated. But in the realm of business, there is no room for error..

And they have found that sexuality across species is malleable before the onset of puberty by various factors. Case closed.

A respondant began to badger me about an alleged fixation to farm animals in an attempt to divert the conversation.
I said:

How can you interpret that I'm on a drive to turn men into stud animals? I am embarassed for your lack of objectivity as to my statements and to your patently obvious attempt to spin my words against me. You should hang your head in shame.

No, people are not cattle, pigs, dogs, goats, horses, sheep, rats or any other mammal but themselves. And yet even you cannot twist a reader to believe that we are not mammals..indeed primates who are closely related to rats and pigs incidentally in the sense of scientific analysis. Yes, we are.

And what I'm seeing, what should be obvious to all is that you are attempting to say that the field of comparative psychology doesn't exist, without actually being brave enough to dare to say so. You got around this by saying: "human beings are not cattle, nor part of the meat industry, nor part of your drive to make the human race part of stud animals, same-sexed dummy mounts, bulls, etc".

Just have the nugs instead to say "I think comparative psychology doesn't exist and on this basis I'm judging that you are wrong about human correlation to scores of other mammals having malleable sexuality." Because you know damn well that if we embark on a debate where comparative psychology is a legitimate contender, you and those others with an agenda to paint out deviant sexuality as "inborn" thus serving their "we are an innate minority group" agenda to gain "rights" to marriage will fall flat on its face.

Your stance as well as being insulting towards me is also utterly cowardly and sneaky. For the purposes of debate, do not ever take my words so grossly out of context again, unless your own credibility has no meaning to you whatsoever.

 

[Sihouette]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

After pointing out the attempt at diversion, another respondant chimed in that since the deviant fetish known as "gay" can occur across all boundaries of race, gender and creeds and gave for the sake of argument that it may be an environmental condition instead of innate, how could I then justify denying them marriage since ostensibly their "condition" was out of their control.

I responded in a serious of posts amidst continued attempst at diverting the subject back onto demonizing me as a homophobe, gay-basher, etc. etc. You know the drill..

"Now, this is going to be an extremely difficult thing for anyone who's ever met a large number of gay people to believe, as there really are no common factors among gay people. "The Gay" is just as likely to strike first children as last or middle children, just as likely to be found among children who come from happy homes or broken homes or abusive homes or the homeless, just as likely to be black, white, Asian, Latino, ethnic Jewish, etc, just as likely from upper class to middle class to poor,"~a respondant
************

Without even realizing it, you have supported the findings in question. If you re-read my posts you will notice that I've said that the conditions leading to sexual imprinting are "complex". They can include frustration, molestation, inappropriate exposure, timing. Read up on classical associative conditioning. All it takes is reward/punishment in any type of combination and timing. AI professionals know this and take great pains to reduce the punishment and increase the reward when encouraging a stud animal to fixate on a given release object. Pretty elemental stuff.

It also explains how deviant sexuality can cross all economic backgounds, races, creeds, genders etc. Classical conditioning applies across the board. Thanks for highlighting that.

Perhaps we should lay the myth to rest once and for all. Just because someone takes position "B" to a given debate does not instantly assign the label of "subject-of-debate-aphobe". Once again you are inserting a sneaky and insulting myth into this conversation. I'll ask you again to stop. For what it's worth.

I have always advocated compassion for deviants, just as I advocate compassion for people who suffer with OCD. Once imprinted [pay close attention here because this is where I diverge from many people opposed to deviants wanting marriage "rights"] I know for a fact that changing their sexual preference is nearly impossible. It's why we have the repeat-offender statistics for child molesters at such a level and why we have a nationwide registry for them. We KNOW they will repeat-offend, statistically speaking because our lawmakers have already acknowledged the fixating aspect of object-gratification with those thusly imprinted and why an overwhelming majority of those particular offenders were molested themselves as children.

In other words, they learned at a very young age to become stimulated sexually in a relationship that involves a much older person and a child. All the stimuli present then must be matched from there on as life progresses in order to "satisfy" their learned cravings.

Funny how if you think about it, many sexual issues can be easily explained with the imprinting model.

Now before you start putting words in my mouth again, let me say that I used the child molester example to illustrate just one form of habitual sexuality of many that are possible. People who are imprinted with deviant [other than hetero between consenting non-related adults] sexuality deserve an investigation into their condition but not normalizing within a society. Are you capable of seeing the difference between that statement and one that says that people should fear and hate gays? Perhaps if you stretch your mind far enough and drop your demonizing agenda to win a debate you know you can't otherwise win, you can see that one isn't the other.

Hope springs eternal.

Just a heads-up. The more you use denigrating comments, those obviously not within the parameters of the debate topic and just patently below-the-belt, the more you expose your weak stance. Put-downs are not a substitute for lucid rebuttal. When I used the word "chicken" for example, in context that it was recently removed from, it was in reference to gay men's own term for young heterosexual men they were intent on "converting" to homosexuality. That is THEIR OWN vernacular. I did not invent the term.

Moving on we have roro's question:

"Sil -- Answer the question: why is it that these people, who were "made" gay by some envioronmental condition or conditions (according to you), should be denied the right to marry?"

Any adult person within the United States, as far as I know, is not prohibited to be married. Any man or any woman anywhere can marry the opposite gender. Since even the deviant lobby has admitted that all manner of strange things go on in the bedrooms of married people, including nothing at all for years on end, deviants may marry anyone and have an "open" relationship with their spouse allowing their sexual release with partner of the same gender.

So I'm not aware of the conflict. What gays etc. are asking for is to parade the nature of their deviance to our society as "normal". This is where I draw the line. And I do it for the sake of the mimicry aspects of child development, coupled with the sexual-imprinting phenomenon; which I have alread said is complex, and may likely contain social components.

So the debate is not whether or not gays being married can have a recruitment element [inadvertent or otherwise], it's whether or not you want the numbers of homosexuals to increase above their current proportion in our society. If you do, fine. If you don't, fine. Let's vote on it and put it to rest. But when voting we will air all the facts in the pre-poll debates, not just the ones the gay-lobby wants aired [or else!]. As evidenced herein and all other related threads

Here is a 2001 study done in animals [and yes, humans are animals and comparative psychology allows us to extrapolate] that shows the imprinting nature of sexuality and even discusses findings that social pressures can affect partner choices.

A quote:

"Experience early in life that has a latent effect on
subsequent sexual behavior has been termed sexual
imprinting (Bateson, 1978a,b). As with other forms of
imprinting (see Lorenz, 1970), the exact nature of associations
and reinforcement contingencies involved
in this type of learning are not well understood. However,
it has been argued that imprinting follows contingency
rules similar to those important for classical
conditioning (Hollis, ten Cate, and Bateson, 1991)."

**********
http://www-psychology.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pf...

Again, from the quote:

"..the exact nature of associations
and reinforcement contingencies involved
in this type of learning are not well understood.."

**

My contention is that we should understand these contingencies first, especially coupled with the study's findings that sexual preferences are linked to social influences. I believe in making informed decisions and not hasty ones based on being belittled or pressured by the gay lobby.

I think it's appropriate to add here to that its this belittling, this peer pressure we see inherant in this thread and elsewhere that skews polling data. People when asked in a public setting, or in the presence of someone else who they deem may have a strong differing view or a political climate which allows reverse bashing may give a false answer to the pollster on "do you think homosexuals should be able to marry", than the answer they actually "give" at the polls.

The consternation and mismatch about polling in CA just prior to the Prop 8 issue and also in Maine recently vs the actual outcome results are demonstrative of this. Those curtains at the booths are there for a reason, so that the individual may exert his or her power without coercion or undue influences. The gay lobby will not reverse-bash US citizens into falling in line with their agenda without considering all the facts at hand.

My brother routinely and straightfacedly informs his wife year after year that he voted republican. Yet behind the curtain he will occasionally cast in favor of democrats. [I hope she's not reading this..lol..]

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

All rested up and posting the same tired nonsense as last time, eh Siho? Anybody who sexually abuses animals for money to make a living and is proud of that fact is hardly an example to be held up for our children to emulate. This is especially true when the person in question has lied about her educational attainments and has no education in biology--beyond her personal animal abuse.

It's nice to see you back, Siho, troweling out your own personal brand of ignorance and bigotry firmly based in pseudo-science and twisted animal sexual abuse.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

All rested up and posting the same tired nonsense as last time, eh Siho? Anybody who sexually abuses animals for money to make a living and is proud of that fact is hardly an example to be held up for our children to emulate. This is especially true when the person in question has lied about her educational attainments and has no education in biology--beyond her personal animal abuse.

It's nice to see you back, Siho, troweling out your own personal brand of ignorance and bigotry firmly based in pseudo-science and twisted animal sexual abuse.

Oh, now you've gone and done IT...you've interrupted her conversation with herself
And she's dredging up the same-ole-same-ole but with a new twist...she's discussing this same repetitive B.S. on another site and bringing her acknowledgements back here to share like an award/banner of intelligence/certificate of knowledge...YIKES The 'TWILIGHT ZONE' has come back for syndication {re-run for EVER}

BTW...that is the nicest Avatar, you've ever had...is that really you or a model/TV personality?

 

[top gun]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Oh, now you've gone and done IT...you've interrupted her conversation with herself

I know! It was a bit of a riot watching her pat herself on the back for being at the least a homophob and at worst just a good old fashion bigot.

But just to remind everyone... only since Siho wanted to pick at old wounds.

Siho is a lover scorned by a guy that turned out to be gay. Now I'm not saying Siho turns men gay I have no proof of that. But I can say that she has said she was in love with a man that turned out to be gay and she was very upset about it...

nuff said!

Now I will brighten everyone's day with this insightful musical parody that reminds us all of someone's homophobic reality...

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Oh, now you've gone and done IT...you've interrupted her conversation with herself
And she's dredging up the same-ole-same-ole but with a new twist...she's discussing this same repetitive B.S. on another site and bringing her acknowledgements back here to share like an award/banner of intelligence/certificate of knowledge...YIKES The 'TWILIGHT ZONE' has come back for syndication {re-run for EVER}

BTW...that is the nicest Avatar, you've ever had...is that really you or a model/TV personality?

I have a stunt double who does all my photo ops, but she had the flu so I had to do this one. I don't look like that anymore, it's a couple of years old and I have more gray hairs now.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

I have a stunt double who does all my photo ops, but she had the flu so I had to do this one. I don't look like that anymore, it's a couple of years old and I have more gray hairs now.

Hey...we all get those gray hairs...and I've earned each and everyone of them. You can't have more than I do...I've got quite a few years on you...young lady

So what did you do for Turkey Day...did you travel or just stay at home?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Hey...we all get those gray hairs...and I've earned each and everyone of them. You can't have more than I do...I've got quite a few years on you...young lady

So what did you do for Turkey Day...did you travel or just stay at home?

Our youngest son and his wife came down for a week to visit, we had Tofurkey roast, mock mock turtle soup, potatoes, and vegan pumpkin pie.

And you?

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Our youngest son and his wife came down for a week to visit, we had Tofurkey roast, mock mock turtle soup, potatoes, and vegan pumpkin pie.

And you?

Well HELLS - BELLS I don't think I have ever heard of nor had anything that you mentioned...except that vegan pumpkin pie...that is just regular old pumpkin pie, RIGHT?

I've had REAL turtle soup and I've had TOFU in my stir fry...but I'm rather clueless with WTH you typed?

We had deep fat fried turkeys...a friend came with his fryer and I had all of the oil and 4 - 15# birds to fry. 1 for us for dinner that day, 1 for the guy doing all of the work, 1 for a neighbor who just got laid off, and another for my neighbors that his wife has reoccurring lung cancer. My son ended up working so he wasn't able to come back for Thanksgiving but he'll take some 3 days off over a weekend and come back before Christmas and we'll have a great time then. But it was basically: me, my mother 2 ladies that didn't have a family, a young man that works for me off & on {he did the turkeys} and my friend and her husband from across the street. Turkey, mashed rutabagas & regular white potatoes, giblet gravy, fried sweet potatoes, green-bean casserole, scalloped cornbread, cranberry relish, carrot jell-o, home made rolls, dressing, apple pie, rhubarb pie, angel food cake with strawberry puree and whipped topping and pumpkin pie too! But we all had a great time and told stories about our youth and most memorable family get togethers!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Re: California Proposition 8 Continued

Well HELLS - BELLS I don't think I have ever heard of nor had anything that you mentioned...except that vegan pumpkin pie...that is just regular old pumpkin pie, RIGHT?

I've had REAL turtle soup and I've had TOFU in my stir fry...but I'm rather clueless with WTH you typed?

We had deep fat fried turkeys...a friend came with his fryer and I had all of the oil and 4 - 15# birds to fry. 1 for us for dinner that day, 1 for the guy doing all of the work, 1 for a neighbor who just got laid off, and another for my neighbors that his wife has reoccurring lung cancer. My son ended up working so he wasn't able to come back for Thanksgiving but he'll take some 3 days off over a weekend and come back before Christmas and we'll have a great time then. But it was basically: me, my mother 2 ladies that didn't have a family, a young man that works for me off & on {he did the turkeys} and my friend and her husband from across the street. Turkey, mashed rutabagas & regular white potatoes, giblet gravy, fried sweet potatoes, green-bean casserole, scalloped cornbread, cranberry relish, carrot jell-o, home made rolls, dressing, apple pie, rhubarb pie, angel food cake with strawberry puree and whipped topping and pumpkin pie too! But we all had a great time and told stories about our youth and most memorable family get togethers!

Being vegans we didn't have most of the traditional things. Mock mock turtle soup was new for us, it comes from Peter Sinclair's recipe in Alex's Restaurant. No turtles were mocked in the making of this soup. Real turtle soup was made from green turtles until they disappeared from over hunting, then mock turtle soup was made from some of the more disgusting parts of calves and sheep. Mock mock turtle soupl is vegan, nothing of animal origin is used.

Many pumpkin pies have milk, eggs, sugar, whip cream, or other animal products in them, vegan pumpkin does not.

Tofurkey is a tofu roast with stuffing inside and comes with gravy.