California Proposition 8

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The problem arises when you extrapolate or interpolate from one scientific perspective while ignoring all the rest. There are a lot of people studying human psycho-sexuality exclusively, more who are studying the developmental effects of hormone imbalances, and even more who are studying the genetic influence on the development of personality characteristics. These people don't agree with your thesis and you have not even examined their work.

Your total anal-fixation on the one-to-one carryover from animal behavior to human behavior is myopic and leads you to the fallacious conclusions that you desperately want to be true. This is why honest researchers use a multi-disciplinary approach to their work.
 
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The study by Pfaus et al shows definitively that sexual preference "behavior" is learned after birth and shows susceptibility to environmental influence on object-gratification-selection. The hundreds of studies citied in the references are those in the field of comparative psychology, or on the peripheral and lend support to Pfaus et al's findings. The point was put that only two reference human studies. That's not getting what comparative psychology is about apparently.
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Who Should Study Comparative Psychology?
The study of animal behavior can lead to a deeper and broader understanding of human psychology. Research on animal behavior has led to numerous discoveries about human behavior, such as Ivan Pavlov's research on classical conditioning or Harry Harlow's work with rhesus monkeys. Students of biological sciences and social sciences can benefit from studying comparative psychology.
Important People in the History of Comparative Psychology
Charles Darwin
George Romanes
C. Lloyd Morgan
Ivan Pavlov
Edward Thorndike
B.F. Skinner
Konrad Lorenz
[among hundreds of others]
http://psychology.about.com/od/comparativepsych...
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The idea is that you e-x-t-r-a-p-o-l-a-t-e the findings across mulitiple species and compare them to each other and to human behavior to show a common thread. From the number of species from the hundreds of references studies[not all mammal, but most] that exhibit the learned sexual preference, we EXTRAPOLATE that human mammals are not exempt. So if you have say four dozen types of mammals [especially mammals, particularly primates and rats, who are our closest animal "cousins"] and even birds or other fauna that all show a learned preference sexually, that also shows susceptiblity to environmental influences...you EXTRAPOLATE that humans are not immune to this trait.

Maybe you cannot declare without a shadow of a doubt that they apply to humans; but only a fool would take overwhelming findings such as those and definitively state that they do not. In fact, where the majority rules, the findings "declare" that sexual preference in humans most likely is learned, like in other animals besides homo sapiens, and that it is susceptible to environmental influences..

Ergo..*drum roll*

Normalizing fetish behavior such as homosexuality via marriage, in a given society [environment], you can expect, and indeed SHOULD expect an increase in same-gendered selection in subsequent generations in a given population, based on what is the new "normal" for said population.

Keeping homosexuality in the category of a deviant fetish, where it properly belongs, does not eradicate homosexuality. What it does instead is keep it away from the "influence" category of normal human social behaviors. Homosexuals who factually play at being butch and fem anyway, are indeed trying to mimic what they must innately believe is normal. If they cannot access or manifest this normalcy due to some associative conditioning crosswiring [and my heart does go out to molestation, frustration and misplacement victims totally], they shouldn't be hated, or shoved out. Instead every effort should go to educating people about the learned aspects of sexuality and how important it is to sequester formative adolescents from fetish intrusion. Of course it won't be 100% effective. Nothing ever is. But that doesn't mean we should simply stop striving to reach the ideal.

Civil unions are the perfect solution to homosexuality and other fetishes because the deviant-sexuals are right, after a certain point, classical conditioning is very difficult to revert, if not impossible. This is where the christians are dead-wrong. So thus affected, deviants can still live together in their chosen mock-hetero relationships, enjoying the benefits of survivorship, hospital visits and so on and not be either persecuted for their issues nor be denied living with their butch or fem "counterpart".

First off there are hundreds of studies that say the opposite... secondly one obviously cannot be "conditioned" to a certain sexual preference if from their earliest memories as a small child they always associated themselves as of the opposite sex.

And I know you're not going to dispute that millions of people over the years have expressed that EXACT memory... because it's not an uncommon occurrence at all.

And this harping on the word "deviant". It focuses you in as a not very understanding, enlightened or nice person.

There are all kinds of different sexual practices preformed by the straight & the gay. I could easily go down a list of straight sexual practices that are bizarre but calling people deviant because they have sex in a different way seems very bigoted and shallow.

Two adult people in love and wanting a legal marriage contract should be nobody's concern but the people involved.

Recently states like Iowa and Maine have done the right thing and took down a stupid and prejudicial road block on this matter. It will sooner or later be universal across the country.

I do hope at some point you find happiness in your life because it's so glaringly obvious by the fact you spend so much time obsessing on this subject you simply aren't happy.
 
I'll bet that if it was left up to a vote in every state in the US, there would be no gay marriage. I believe that the majority of Americans are against it. If you can't win it in California of all places, you can't win it.
 
I'll bet that if it was left up to a vote in every state in the US, there would be no gay marriage. I believe that the majority of Americans are against it. If you can't win it in California of all places, you can't win it.

Funny thing is that 6 States already have legal gay marriage. Do you really believe that it's alright for the majority to vote away the rights of the minority? Can mainline Christians vote Mormons out of their right to practice their religion? Can the white majority vote to enslave the black minority?
 
Funny thing is that 6 States already have legal gay marriage. Do you really believe that it's alright for the majority to vote away the rights of the minority? Can mainline Christians vote Mormons out of their right to practice their religion? Can the white majority vote to enslave the black minority?

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that I think that most Americans are against it.

In a majority rules society that kind of thing always happens. For example, I didn't vote for Barack Hussein Obama, he's a liar, and a corrupt politician of the worst sort. But I now have to suffer under him just because the majority of Americans were ignorant enough to vote for him. "Majority rules" sucks and the majority doesn't want gay marriage.
 
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that I think that most Americans are against it.

In a majority rules society that kind of thing always happens. For example, I didn't vote for Barack Hussein Obama, he's a liar, and a corrupt politician of the worst sort. But I now have to suffer under him just because the majority of Americans were ignorant enough to vote for him. "Majority rules" sucks and the majority doesn't want gay marriage.

Well quick cracking on yourself... you can vote for President Obama next time.:)

You made a mistake... it happens. You were simply drawn in by the fearmongers on the Radical Right. They convinced you that someone who lied us into an invasion, occupation & war and TORTURED PEOPLE and gave us the worst economic downturn since THE GREAT DEPRESSION (THE BUSH RECESSION) were the "good" "honest" guys.

But hey you can be late to the party and sober up to the fact... THE REPUBLICANTS SUCKED AT GOVERNING!


On the gay marriage ban. It won't last. It can't last. It's easy to see one state after another going in the exact opposite direction.

It'll be re-voted until it passes or it might get turned over by the Supreme Court eventually. But you are correct that while it's the law... it's the law. When it's overturned or voted out then that will be the new law.


 
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that I think that most Americans are against it.

In a majority rules society that kind of thing always happens. For example, I didn't vote for Barack Hussein Obama, he's a liar, and a corrupt politician of the worst sort. But I now have to suffer under him just because the majority of Americans were ignorant enough to vote for him. "Majority rules" sucks and the majority doesn't want gay marriage.
We don't live in a "majority rules" society, many people think we do, but it was not set up that way by the Founding Fathers. We started with a representative republic just so that the majority could not enslave the minority.

Voting for politicians is a very different process than voting away Constitutionally guaranteed equal rights. We lived with the idiot George for 8 years, now we're going to live with someone who may indeed be an idiot from the other party--turn about is fair play. But voting away the rights guaranteed by the 14th amendment on the basis of religious bigotry is not fair play, it's an abrogation of the US Constitution.
 
Well quick cracking on yourself... you can vote for President Obama next time.:)

You made a mistake... it happens. You were simply drawn in by the fearmongers on the Radical Right. They convinced you that someone who lied us into an invasion, occupation & war and TORTURED PEOPLE and gave us the worst economic downturn since THE GREAT DEPRESSION (THE BUSH RECESSION) were the "good" "honest" guys.

But hey you can be late to the party and sober up to the fact... THE REPUBLICANTS SUCKED AT GOVERNING!


On the gay marriage ban. It won't last. It can't last. It's easy to see one state after another going in the exact opposite direction.

It'll be re-voted until it passes or it might get turned over by the Supreme Court eventually. But you are correct that while it's the law... it's the law. When it's overturned or voted out then that will be the new law.



Wow! Can't resist the irrelevant side swipe of Bush can you?

The point is that I was responding to a post that said we shouldn't have to let the majority take away the persuit of happiness from a minority and i gave an example that it happens all the time. You've got Bush Derangement Syndrome bad there fella.
 
We don't live in a "majority rules" society, many people think we do, but it was not set up that way by the Founding Fathers. We started with a representative republic just so that the majority could not enslave the minority.

Voting for politicians is a very different process than voting away Constitutionally guaranteed equal rights. We lived with the idiot George for 8 years, now we're going to live with someone who may indeed be an idiot from the other party--turn about is fair play. But voting away the rights guaranteed by the 14th amendment on the basis of religious bigotry is not fair play, it's an abrogation of the US Constitution.

Well there is quite a lot of things that the Founding Fathers didn't set up or intend to let happen, but they did anyway.

Show me where the 14th Amendment or any amendment says that anyone has the right to marriage.
 
Well there is quite a lot of things that the Founding Fathers didn't set up or intend to let happen, but they did anyway.

Show me where the 14th Amendment or any amendment says that anyone has the right to marriage.

Equal protection under the law in the 14th amendment, that means that laws cannot be selectively applied to adults. All consenting adults have the right to marry the consenting adult of their choice, only homosexual consenting adults are denied this right. Obviously this is a direct abrogation of the US Constitutional guarantee of equal protection. The denial of marriage is based only on religious bigotry and the laws were put into effect by the religious majority to promote their beliefs at the expense of a minority they don't like.
 
Equal protection under the law in the 14th amendment, that means that laws cannot be selectively applied to adults. All consenting adults have the right to marry the consenting adult of their choice, only homosexual consenting adults are denied this right. Obviously this is a direct abrogation of the US Constitutional guarantee of equal protection. The denial of marriage is based only on religious bigotry and the laws were put into effect by the religious majority to promote their beliefs at the expense of a minority they don't like.

I take issue with your interpretation, and I'm not alone. So does the California Supreme Court.
 
I take issue with your interpretation, and I'm not alone. So does the California Supreme Court.

Actually, that's not true. The California Supreme Court in their decision said that they were not ruling on the issue of gay marriage, they were refusing to reverse the initiative process and the fact that this is true is shown by the way they allowed more than 18,000 gay marriages to stand rather than set them aside as they would have done if they were ruling against gay marriage.

Please note that all 7 of the Iowa State Supreme Court justices agreed that the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause were being violated and they authorized gay marriage.
 
Actually, that's not true. The California Supreme Court in their decision said that they were not ruling on the issue of gay marriage, they were refusing to reverse the initiative process and the fact that this is true is shown by the way they allowed more than 18,000 gay marriages to stand rather than set them aside as they would have done if they were ruling against gay marriage.

Please note that all 7 of the Iowa State Supreme Court justices agreed that the 14th amendment and the equal protection clause were being violated and they authorized gay marriage.

Ok, fair enough.

Going back to my original point, I don't personally care if they can get married or not, I just know that most people are against it.
 
Ok, fair enough.

Going back to my original point, I don't personally care if they can get married or not, I just know that most people are against it.

At one time most people were against almost any civil right you can name. Hell, at one time people believed that women didn't even have souls and only men were made in God's image. The history of humanity has been one long struggle to bring more and more people under the umbrella of ethical treatment. The battle continues today.

When I was young the battle was for civil rights for black people and for inter-racial marriage. Where are those battles now? Gone and mostly forgotten, people who object to those things now are seen as strange extremists, gay marriage will be the same way.
 
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The issue is now about law and democracy, in other words, majority rule. Homosexuals have a right to love whomever they want. They don't have the RIGHT to demand that California bend to their will. The voters of California have spoken, and they have as much right to have their voice heard as any special interest group. The fact that this decision was made according to the law of the land, votes, makes it a moot legal issue for now. They can try again when it comes up for another vote. In the meantime, they are cordially invited to move to a state where the laws are more to their liking.

Ah, the failure of democracy speaks volumes. Remove their 'rights' in the first place, and there will be nothing left for them to squawk about. RAther a simple solution. Outlaw faggotry altogether, enforce it with military might, and ye shall have nothing but peace. I don't see a terrorist FAG BRIGADE happening on the horizon.
 
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