California Proposition 8

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I am alone on this topic, really? I am the only person in the United States who, for reasons other than religious zealotry, believe that the description of marriage should remain: "between one man and one woman."??

How did Prop 8 pass then? California, known for its majority christian zealots? I don't think so...it is the freest of the free-swinging states that I know of, the "fruit and nut basket" of the US..lol...[or so I've heard it called]
:rolleyes:

Poor ol' Chicken Little~ Mare

Oh, you HAD to bring up chicken again. I understand, kneejerk GLBT lingo surfaces at the damndest moments..lol...
"Chicken" can be used, usually by gay men referring to other gay men, to mean a young gay man or young appearing gay man - stereotypically describing an adolescent youth, usually one with an innocent nature.[1]

Author Bruce Rodgers defines the term as "1. any boy under the age of consent, heterosexual, fair of face, and unfamiliar with homosexuality ("So many chickens were flapping around that I thought we were touring Colonel Sanders' plantation”) 2. juvenile, youthful, young-looking.[2] Others have defined it as a young man who engages in sex for money or favors.[3]

Recently, some conservative Americans began defining the term itself as gay pedophile related.[4] In the subculture of the gay community which uses handkerchiefs or bandannas as a code, people who identify as "Chicken" wear a Kewpie doll in their left back pocket. Those who are interested in young men - referred to as chickenhawks - are denoted in the hanky code as wearing one on the right.[5]

The term has existed in the gay vernacular for many decades, and is still used today. David Henry Sterry, a former prostitute turned actor and director, titled his 2002 memoir, Chicken: Self-Portrait of a Young Man for Rent.[6] Author Philip Herbst traces its origin to the 19th century, where it was used to describe the youngest sailors on a ship, who were often used for sexual purposes. [7]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(gay_slang

Nah, the gay culture isn't about recruitment or undue coercion at all. And certainly aren't admitting that deviant sex can be learned or taught to others...

Remember to invite "bi-curious" teens to your party next time!
 
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I am alone on this topic, really? I am the only person in the United States who, for reasons other than religious zealotry, believe that the description of marriage should remain: "between one man and one woman."??

How did Prop 8 pass then? California, known for its majority christian zealots? I don't think so...it is the freest of the free-swinging states that I know of, the "fruit and nut basket" of the US..lol...[or so I've heard it called]
Oh, you HAD to bring up chicken again. I understand, kneejerk GLBT lingo surfaces at the damndest moments
Nah, the gay culture isn't about recruitment or undue coercion at all. And certainly aren't admitting that deviant sex can be learned or taught to others...

Remember to invite "bi-curious" teens to your party next time!

So, your position is that Col. Sander's was gay? AND a pedophile? You've drifted way off into the ozone, Siho. Don't count too much on all the people who voted for Prop. 8, remember that lots of people voted for George Bush too, lots of people believed that the world was flat too, people voted in George Wallace as well. The well-meaning sheeple kept women from voting or owning property, banished mentally ill people to places where they were tortured to drive out the demons, and if you had any education you'd know that the great unwashed mass of people have always been against ANY civil liberties extension, they've always been afraid of what would happen to society when you let black people intermingle with white people--or, God Forbid! Marry white people.
 
Using your "logic" mare, if society bands up against something it is, by definition, always "good", right? Did I follow you?

So literally we should only legislate from now on against things that were accepted as normal before. I'll get right on the phone and tell all the prisons to let out the serial killers and pedophiles, robbers, rapists and embezzlers because those too are things long thought of as "bad" by society.

If society is against them, they must be right.

Up is down, orange is purple, round is square....
:rolleyes:

The thing is Mare, we get to decide what is right for society, as a majority. And that does change over time. Agreed. But not everything gets to change. Not every deviance from the norm is granted normality and you may have to face that with sexual deviance that is proven to be learned and taught and fixated [has a social-contagion factor], it may not "win" it's right in the category along with other causes that stemmed from descrimination against things that were inborn: like being black or a woman.

I [you] brought up "chicken" again because it illustrates how gays prey on straights in hopes to convert them to their perversion.

The very gay slang term "chicken" is the same as saying "homosexuals seek to recruit and convert heteros via coercion". And the thing is when people are psychologically vulnerable, it works. You all have beaten society down to accept your perversion as normal. But I for one am still standing tall against it.
 
Using your "logic" mare, if society bands up against something it is, by definition, always "good", right? Did I follow you?

Follow me? Are you kidding? You couldn't find a pig in a bathtub, you couldn't find your own ass with both hands. You couldn't follow a 4 horse team across an alkalia flat. You couldn't follow a bleeding elephant in 3 feet of new snow.

You deliberately obfuscate because you have no argument. I have said many times that the issue is harm to others, activities that harm no one should not be forbidden by religious fiat by the majority. You look stupid trying to twist my words into something you can disagree with.
 
Sihouette Said: The thing is Mare, we get to decide what is right for society, as a majority. And that does change over time. Agreed. But not everything gets to change. Not every deviance from the norm is granted normality and you may have to face that with sexual deviance that is proven to be learned and taught and fixated [has a social-contagion factor], it may not "win" it's right in the category along with other causes that stemmed from descrimination against things that were inborn: like being black or a woman.

HELLO, oh, knowledge befuddled one---our country was founded on the premise that religious persecution was wrong...remember the prisons full of the 'far right religious zealots' being forced to board a boat and dumped onto this new place "NEW ENGLAND". You the far rigid 'wrong' thinking fanatic is exactly why the good thinking fore fathers made sure that there was separation of church & state. DUH!!! ;)

OMG...just keep digging that bigoted/raciest/ignorant hole that you seem to love to keep you mind lock away in...shooting your self in the foot would be less painful!!! LMAO

Mare said: Follow me? Are you kidding? You couldn't find a pig in a bathtub, you couldn't find your own ass with both hands. You couldn't follow a 4 horse team across an alkalia flat. You couldn't follow a bleeding elephant in 3 feet of new snow.

DAM...MARE...THAT WAS GOOD...ROTFLMAO
 
For me so "obviously not making sense", there sure is a hellof a fight on this thread to keep that drum beating...lest anyone miss the obviousness...lol...

Let me guess gentleman that one flew right over your head?
 
For me so "obviously not making sense", there sure is a hellof a fight on this thread to keep that drum beating...lest anyone miss the obviousness...lol...Let me guess gentleman that one flew right over your head?

So, if you don't have anything to say why are we bothering to answer you? Because the bucolic end product you are dispensing is eaten up by the unthinking mass of people who have as little education as you have, unless someone comes along and tells them not to partake.
 
I am alone on this topic, really? I am the only person in the United States who, for reasons other than religious zealotry, believe that the description of marriage should remain: "between one man and one woman."??

Look up above in my previous post you're so emotional you can't read... or here I'll quote it for you again...

The fact you appear pretty much alone on this topic of course does not mean there aren't others that probably agree with you... I'm sure there are people who are even more rabid.
 
For me so "obviously not making sense", there sure is a hellof a fight on this thread to keep that drum beating...lest anyone miss the obviousness...lol...

Let me guess gentleman that one flew right over your head?

I'd personally like to end it... but then you say something that looks so bad that it's hard to ignore.

Maybe if I summarize the two sides it will clarify the silliness of this debate. This is the basic divide.

You see marriage as not just a legal structure and the recognition of a monogamous commitment and the important legal rights that an adult couple derive from it.

You see it as more of a "morals" issue than a legal issue... possibly even as a religious issue. You don't agree with the gay lifestyle so you don't want gay couples to benefit from the legal rights & responsibilities granted by the marriage contract. You see this as some slippery slope that will encourage gayness in children and deteriorate America's moral fiber.

So I have been taking your case under consideration... but...

The thing lacking here is an understanding of how things really are and the fact that when you look at it marriage is a legal contract between a couple first and foremost.

On the slippery slope & children will turn gay defense I'd simply state the obvious.

A) It's legal to be gay

B) It's legal to be gay live together & have sex

C) Children already know all about gay people... or if not their parents suck

D) Gay people are gay and not witches & warlocks. They don't cast a gay spell over straight people to make them too gay

E) And most importantly... this is all old news. Gay marriage has been around in some areas for a long long time and there have been no harmful effects noted by these communities nor a mass conversion to gaydom by adults nor children (I have to stop right here and say I feel a little dumber for even having to say that last part).

And seriously when you look at a single city, like say San Francisco that has a very large gay population but where gay marriage is illegal and compare that to say any city in the state of Massachusetts where gay marriage is legal...

can everyone not see that being married or not does not change the dynamic of gay people being together at all. The only thing happening here is a prejudice attempt to limit someone their equal rights to have a binding legal contract.

And I feel that's uncalled for and wrong.
 
I'd personally like to end it... but then you say something that looks so bad that it's hard to ignore.

Maybe if I summarize the two sides it will clarify the silliness of this debate. This is the basic divide.

You see marriage as not just a legal structure and the recognition of a monogamous commitment and the important legal rights that an adult couple derive from it.

You see it as more of a "morals" issue than a legal issue... possibly even as a religious issue. You don't agree with the gay lifestyle so you don't want gay couples to benefit from the legal rights & responsibilities granted by the marriage contract. You see this as some slippery slope that will encourage gayness in children and deteriorate America's moral fiber.

So I have been taking your case under consideration... but...

The thing lacking here is an understanding of how things really are and the fact that when you look at it marriage is a legal contract between a couple first and foremost.

On the slippery slope & children will turn gay defense I'd simply state the obvious.

A) It's legal to be gay

B) It's legal to be gay live together & have sex

C) Children already know all about gay people... or if not their parents suck

D) Gay people are gay and not witches & warlocks. They don't cast a gay spell over straight people to make them too gay

E) And most importantly... this is all old news. Gay marriage has been around in some areas for a long long time and there have been no harmful effects noted by these communities nor a mass conversion to gaydom by adults nor children (I have to stop right here and say I feel a little dumber for even having to say that last part).

And seriously when you look at a single city, like say San Francisco that has a very large gay population but where gay marriage is illegal and compare that to say any city in the state of Massachusetts where gay marriage is legal...

can everyone not see that being married or not does not change the dynamic of gay people being together at all. The only thing happening here is a prejudice attempt to limit someone their equal rights to have a binding legal contract.

And I feel that's uncalled for and wrong.

Nice summation, concise, to the point, not aggressive, no ad hominem attacks, logical, historically accurate, even-handed, factual and thoughtful. A nice place to end the discussion.
 
Gays shouldn't be persecuted, agreed.

Neither should they be allowed to redefine marriage. Civil Unions will now have to suffice.

And this debate has ended, courtesy of the GLBT community itself finally outing their real agenda, which has nothing to do with people's choices about their sexuality.

It's been fun debating this with you guys. I'll see you on the other threads:

http://themoderatevoice.com/31507/outrage-do-ask-do-tell-a-documentary-on-outing/?dsq=9161892#comment-9161892
:rolleyes:

A side note about "don't ask, don't tell" in the military...

People mistake the military's thinking with respect to this. Remember, the military is a machine devoid, by its very nature of killing to exact political agendas or in rare cases defense, of philisophical reasons for the rule. Studies in prisons have shown that close crowding of same-gendered individuals over long and stressful periods of time lead to changes in sexuality from hetero to homo. Not in all cases, but in too many to ignore statistically speaking.

Now what is the number one concern of the military? Fresh recruits. What is the largest impediment to fresh recruits? The family's concerns for their son/daughter. We've all seen those ads pitched to the parents of their hoped-for recruits right? OK, hope you're still with me..

Now,if homosexuality was outed and supported in the military as "normal" what would happen to the military's hopes for an ongoing supply of fresh men and women to die for "the cause" if they took in numbers of heteos and, via conditions similar to prison, the sexual relationships took off and produced veterans coming home who were no longer interested in their opposite-gendered finacee's but instead brought home their latest trick to mom and dad?

That's right, the military knows the numbers of recruits would fall off drastically...and hence the suppression of homosexuals in the military. They've read the studies and know about coercion and sexual malleability under stress particularly...it lends to a coercive environment...

The military are experts in human behavior and wouldn't you know, their policies fall directly in line with what the AI industry and other studies have found: homosexuality involves a social-contagion component..and that's why they want the homosexuals that they want in their ranks to stay quiet. It's not that the military wants to eradicate homosexuals, it's only after eradicating their attempts at expanding the gay population and ruining recruitment efforts in a "flyover" world where word gets around..
 
My guess it that there will be a lot of military guys who will be pretty unhappy with you for the implication that they can be inducted into the gay life easily and against their will. Talk about a slap in the face to our soldiers--WHOO! I don't think you'd be safe telling your theory to these guys in person. According to this, most the 18 year old guys are just waiting to become gay--:D--I'd like to be there when they explain to you that it just may not be the case.
 

I looked at your posts on this other site, I also read around on the site itself. I note that you posted 4 times in quick succession and they were all pretty much the same rants you've posted here. Mining things from Wiki instead of using real sources and making the same wild, unsupported accusations as always. I'm sorry you are such a bitter woman, it has to be a painful way to live.
 
A side note about "don't ask, don't tell" in the military...

People mistake the military's thinking with respect to this. Remember, the military is a machine devoid, by its very nature of killing to exact political agendas or in rare cases defense, of philisophical reasons for the rule. Studies in prisons have shown that close crowding of same-gendered individuals over long and stressful periods of time lead to changes in sexuality from hetero to homo. Not in all cases, but in too many to ignore statistically speaking.

Now what is the number one concern of the military? Fresh recruits. What is the largest impediment to fresh recruits? The family's concerns for their son/daughter. We've all seen those ads pitched to the parents of their hoped-for recruits right? OK, hope you're still with me..

Now,if homosexuality was outed and supported in the military as "normal" what would happen to the military's hopes for an ongoing supply of fresh men and women to die for "the cause"...

Well this is another subject, but also very easy to address with just a tiny tiny little bit of a reality check.

First: Other countries have recognized gays in their military and they still have armed forces just fine.

Secondly: The above word "recognized". The fact is everyone already knows there are tons of gay people in our current military and this includes the actual troops themselves. My best friends son has done 3 tours in Iraq & one in Kuwait and it's not news to him at all... probably 90% or more of the gays in the military everyone knows are gay. They just can't talk about it.

This is just another weird rule based on old stereotypes. Personally if I'm in a foxhole with somebody I just want them to shoot straight not be straight (Republican President Dwight Eisenhower said this as well).

And furthermore I'd actually like to know who's gay. I see no benefit from living with, showering with and confiding in someone who still knows perfectly well they are gay... but I just don't.:confused:

You really can't treat people as brothers if you can't even be honest with each other.

I'm sure you think the earth will stop turning and no one will join the Army if OMG someone is gay and admits it... but I know the military rules on code of conduct can handle inappropriate sexual advances whether they be straight or gay.

And we've actually lost and/or failed to enlist a lot of gays in our linguistics areas especially that are desperately needed because of the don't ask don't tell policy. Time to change it to something that makes a little more sense.
 
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The study by Pfaus et al shows definitively that sexual preference "behavior" is learned after birth and shows susceptibility to environmental influence on object-gratification-selection. The hundreds of studies citied in the references are those in the field of comparative psychology, or on the peripheral and lend support to Pfaus et al's findings. The point was put that only two reference human studies. That's not getting what comparative psychology is about apparently.
*********
Who Should Study Comparative Psychology?
The study of animal behavior can lead to a deeper and broader understanding of human psychology. Research on animal behavior has led to numerous discoveries about human behavior, such as Ivan Pavlov's research on classical conditioning or Harry Harlow's work with rhesus monkeys. Students of biological sciences and social sciences can benefit from studying comparative psychology.
Important People in the History of Comparative Psychology
Charles Darwin
George Romanes
C. Lloyd Morgan
Ivan Pavlov
Edward Thorndike
B.F. Skinner
Konrad Lorenz
[among hundreds of others]
http://psychology.about.com/od/comparativepsych...
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The idea is that you e-x-t-r-a-p-o-l-a-t-e the findings across mulitiple species and compare them to each other and to human behavior to show a common thread. From the number of species from the hundreds of references studies[not all mammal, but most] that exhibit the learned sexual preference, we EXTRAPOLATE that human mammals are not exempt. So if you have say four dozen types of mammals [especially mammals, particularly primates and rats, who are our closest animal "cousins"] and even birds or other fauna that all show a learned preference sexually, that also shows susceptiblity to environmental influences...you EXTRAPOLATE that humans are not immune to this trait.

Maybe you cannot declare without a shadow of a doubt that they apply to humans; but only a fool would take overwhelming findings such as those and definitively state that they do not. In fact, where the majority rules, the findings "declare" that sexual preference in humans most likely is learned, like in other animals besides homo sapiens, and that it is susceptible to environmental influences..

Ergo..*drum roll*

Normalizing fetish behavior such as homosexuality via marriage, in a given society [environment], you can expect, and indeed SHOULD expect an increase in same-gendered selection in subsequent generations in a given population, based on what is the new "normal" for said population.

Keeping homosexuality in the category of a deviant fetish, where it properly belongs, does not eradicate homosexuality. What it does instead is keep it away from the "influence" category of normal human social behaviors. Homosexuals who factually play at being butch and fem anyway, are indeed trying to mimic what they must innately believe is normal. If they cannot access or manifest this normalcy due to some associative conditioning crosswiring [and my heart does go out to molestation, frustration and misplacement victims totally], they shouldn't be hated, or shoved out. Instead every effort should go to educating people about the learned aspects of sexuality and how important it is to sequester formative adolescents from fetish intrusion. Of course it won't be 100% effective. Nothing ever is. But that doesn't mean we should simply stop striving to reach the ideal.

Civil unions are the perfect solution to homosexuality and other fetishes because the deviant-sexuals are right, after a certain point, classical conditioning is very difficult to revert, if not impossible. This is where the christians are dead-wrong. So thus affected, deviants can still live together in their chosen mock-hetero relationships, enjoying the benefits of survivorship, hospital visits and so on and not be either persecuted for their issues nor be denied living with their butch or fem "counterpart".
 
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