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Appleton–Century–Crofts, New York.
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(1985b). Pavlovian conditioning of sexual arousal: First- and second-
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Conditioning and Sexual Behavior 321

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

In love...sure...that's what I was at 13 years old. He was already bi when I had my crush on him. I knew that beforehand..to set the diversion-record straight..lol.. I fell in love with someone else just a year or so after him and I moved far away and lost track of him and most of my brother's other friends. I only learned he died of AIDS a few years ago...long after we parted ways..

Meanwhile if you believe in comparative psychology, then you have to accept that sexual-preference is learned. There were at least four pages in fine print of scientific studies referenced in "Conditioning And Sexual Behavior: A Review".

So you either accept that their field of study is viable, or if you want the world to believe your unsubstantiated "intuition" that gayness is somehow innate, then you have to wholly reject comparative psychology.

That is in essence what Mare has done. Given what else Mare has done, to his body, I can see perhaps a history of rejecting the entire field of human psychology and not just the comparative one...

Amputating one's penis as the "solution" to having what one believes is a "female brain" is the end result of denial of psychosis.

Any MD who participated in this travesty should have their license revoked..at the very least..

You know that you tread into an area that you neither are qualified to judge nor have the educational back ground to point the finger of judgment at...you need to quit preaching at Mare about what choices that Mare did and did not do. You forte is 'gathering semen' and I can only imagine that you excel at that endeavor...but you really, really need to Mind Your Own Business about the lifestyle choices that Mare has made.

Conditioned response is a main stay in training any and all dogs/horses/cats etc., etc., etc., you continue to force feed your POINT OF VIEW as if you've got the 'master plan' on {your twisted views of} deviancy of human sexual behaviour because you've spent so much time assisting with 'semen collection'. GIVE IT UP and get off of Mare's back...

 

[Sihouette]

The collective fate of my countrymen is my business.

Your position seems to be that a debate about this issue must not exist. My position is that is should and must exist. We are at loggerheads. I want to explore the issues at hand and you don't.

I believe in educating myself about laws that stand to impact society. You don't.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

In love...sure...that's what I was at 13 years old. He was already bi when I had my crush on him. I knew that beforehand..to set the diversion-record straight..lol.. I fell in love with someone else just a year or so after him and I moved far away and lost track of him and most of my brother's other friends. I only learned he died of AIDS a few years ago...long after we parted ways..

Meanwhile if you believe in comparative psychology, then you have to accept that sexual-preference is learned. There were at least four pages in fine print of scientific studies referenced in "Conditioning And Sexual Behavior: A Review".

So you either accept that their field of study is viable, or if you want the world to believe your unsubstantiated "intuition" that gayness is somehow innate, then you have to wholly reject comparative psychology.

That is in essence what Mare has done. Given what else Mare has done, to his body, I can see perhaps a history of rejecting the entire field of human psychology and not just the comparative one...

Amputating one's penis as the "solution" to having what one believes is a "female brain" is the end result of denial of psychosis.

Any MD who participated in this travesty should have their license revoked..at the very least..

You really should read up on a subject before pontificating on it, otherwise you sound ignorant again.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The collective fate of my countrymen is my business.

Your position seems to be that a debate about this issue must not exist. My position is that is should and must exist. We are at loggerheads. I want to explore the issues at hand and you don't.

I believe in educating myself about laws that stand to impact society. You don't.

Publishing a long list of things about animals is no support for your thesis of human behavior. If past experience is any indication you have not read a single one of the sources you cited.

Your night-terrors about your countrymen are hardly an issue for the rest of us, perhaps some psychotherapy would help in that regard. You really should check out phrenology too, I think that it would fit well into your fantasy of behavioral conditioning. Even a course rectal ozone sufflation might be therapeutic for you.

While you are doing all this research perhaps you could explain to us how your theory explains the difference in sizes of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalus in light of the fact that all men (gay and straight) have the large size bed nucleus and all women and transwomen have the small size bed nucleus. Hmmmm, could it be that biology has something to do with it? How about the low levels of hormone production? The lack of testosterone receptors in the brain? What about the fact that 9 different chromosome patterns have been identified in humans--7 more besides the XX and XY that we all learned about in school. How does your child molesting theory deal with the real biological differences found in human beings? Or are you in total denial about that as well?

Flipping sh1t at me for being a transsexual doesn't bother me, shoot, my own brothers have said worse things to me (they are both just as abysmally ignorant as you are). I use the comments I get from the know-nothings like yourself as part of my presentations when I speak to University classes on trans-issues. Education is the only way to deal with the a-hole bigotry of people like yourself, you are probably beyond the pale, but using you as an egregiously bad-example I will be able to reach other, smarter people.

 

[top gun]

In love...sure...that's what I was at 13 years old. He was already bi when I had my crush on him.

Do you have no idea whatsoever how many times you've tweaked this story to try and extract yourself from the obvious?

You at first said you were in love with a man that turned out to be gay.

Then... you said what you meant to say was you... loved like love for a friend.

Then... you said he was really just a friend of your brother.

Now you say it was a 13 year old girl's crush.

Please stop... I'm begging you! We all know you scared a man into being gay, you're bitter and out to destroy anything gay related you can get your hands on... now let's just all move on!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Publishing a long list of things about animals is no support for your thesis of human behavior. If past experience is any indication you have not read a single one of the sources you cited.

Your night-terrors about your countrymen are hardly an issue for the rest of us, perhaps some psychotherapy would help in that regard. You really should check out phrenology too, I think that it would fit well into your fantasy of behavioral conditioning. Even a course rectal ozone sufflation might be therapeutic for you.

While you are doing all this research perhaps you could explain to us how your theory explains the difference in sizes of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalus in light of the fact that all men (gay and straight) have the large size bed nucleus and all women and transwomen have the small size bed nucleus. Hmmmm, could it be that biology has something to do with it? How about the low levels of hormone production? The lack of testosterone receptors in the brain? What about the fact that 9 different chromosome patterns have been identified in humans--7 more besides the XX and XY that we all learned about in school. How does your child molesting theory deal with the real biological differences found in human beings? Or are you in total denial about that as well?

Flipping sh1t at me for being a transsexual doesn't bother me, shoot, my own brothers have said worse things to me (they are both just as abysmally ignorant as you are). I use the comments I get from the know-nothings like yourself as part of my presentations when I speak to University classes on trans-issues. Education is the only way to deal with the a-hole bigotry of people like yourself, you are probably beyond the pale, but using you as an egregiously bad-example I will be able to reach other, smarter people.

Well said and BRAVO for you!!! You're ability to smear the excrement of self inflicted stupidity all over the persona of the ego and lunacy of Sihouette...who "says" that they are so concerned about your well fare is a standard for a higher evolved intelligent I.Q. and open mind of which I have rarely seen.

KUDO's upon you Mare...I have come to appreciate you and the way in which you handle the obscenity/vile/repugnant/thoughtless feelings that Sihouette has attempted to push off onto you. If wading through the 834 posts of this murky insane tripe that was posted as a misnomer of a topic on Prop. #8...then I consider it a trip well worth traveling admiration to you and a lesson of insanity from the original author. Yes, as a newbie poster I've learned loads. You have evolved and Sihouette has chosen the lessor intelligent, lazy way of living!!!

 

[Sihouette]

Mare,

So now I have "night terrors" and am "stupid" for wanting to debate the subject.

Tell me, are the hundreds of studies citied that support that sexual preference is a learned behavior also coming from "fear" and "stupidity"?

Go to the last page and look again...how many "idiots" do you spot in those references?

Don't pick on me, pick on them instead because it is they who have the weight against you in this debate.


The fact that you mistakenly amputated your penis without giving wholehearted and serious credibility to the fact that you instead had a lingering psychological problem...well..it's just tragic. And your very position is that your actions are those of sanity, that lead to sanity....You are wrong of course but there is no going back for you now. Instead all you have to prop up your mental state is to belittle others for pointing out that what you did was a mistake. That's all you have.

And you're damn good at making people feel sorry for you. Methinks it's how you got your MDs to OK the radical surgery that left you maimed and numb for life sexually.

What's done is done. The one thing I won't abide by is you trying to hold your actions out to others as "normal". I can accept that you are insane but the young and impressionable might get taken in by your otherwise lucid "logic". I can only imagine kids who do the damndest things like cutting to get attention and how they might interpret your situation should it suit their own form of temporary insanity. The social-contagion factor isn't a myth, it's real. And if you don't think it is, just go back a page and pick a few dozen studies to read up on it.

In short, the reason I support Prop 8 is because I don't want abnormal to become normal. Sexuality and youth combined with curiosity and malleability are potent reasons to keep men like you from being held out as mainstream. I have empathy for you in that lots of people are mishandled when young to wind up being distorted and sad as adults. And believe it or not, my opposing what you did is actually supporting you in a roundabout way.

 

[top gun]

Tell me, are the hundreds of studies citied that support that sexual preference is a learned behavior also coming from "fear" and "stupidity"?

I can't believe it!!! You make everyone elses point every time you open your mouth!

The very fact Siho that there are studies both ways clearly dilutes your entire premise. And then when anyone with a brain (and Google) looks at the opposing studies you almost always find...

The ones saying gay behavior is always and only a "learned" behavior are almost always from anti-gay or church backed groups and organizations.

The ones saying some people switch for personal preference but other seem wired this way from birth are most always independent much less biased research groups.

All this said... since the issue is only can gays be legally married which hurts absolutely no one and keeps you from having your heart broke by being rebuffed by a gay man... don't you get that you're making the other sides case?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

So now I have "night terrors" and am "stupid" for wanting to debate the subject.

I don't know what else to call your fantasies of horror, sorry. And you are not debating, you are posting the same tripe now that you started with, a debate requires a give and take, new information, an exchange of ideas, progression of some sort--a summation of your posts now would be a copy of a summation from the beginning of the thread. You cannot adequately debate without something to support your position.

Tell me, are the hundreds of studies citied that support that sexual preference is a learned behavior also coming from "fear" and "stupidity"?

Citing a bunch of studies doesn't support your position unless those studies expressly state that they support your position. As far as I know you have not presented a single study that draws the same conclusion--a one to one correlation between captive or domestic animal sexual response and sexual response in all humans. You didn't read the studies you cited, just like you didn't bother to read the ones you posted the other time.

Go to the last page and look again...how many "idiots" do you spot in those references?

I suspect that none of those people are idiots, you are the idiot if you think that posting a bunch of studies that you haven't read is going to convince anyone.

Don't pick on me, pick on them instead because it is they who have the weight against you in this debate.

All the "picking on" that is taking place here is you picking on the gay community because of your bad experiences in the past.

The fact that you mistakenly amputated your penis without giving wholehearted and serious credibility to the fact that you instead had a lingering psychological problem...well..it's just tragic. And your very position is that your actions are those of sanity, that lead to sanity....You are wrong of course but there is no going back for you now. Instead all you have to prop up your mental state is to belittle others for pointing out that what you did was a mistake. That's all you have.

The fact that you keep attacking me personally for things you have made up about me doesn't do much for your credibility either. When you get on a public site and flaunt your ignorance by denigrating other people when in fact you don't have a clue what you're talking about, it makes you look pretty foolish.

And you're damn good at making people feel sorry for you. Methinks it's how you got your MDs to OK the radical surgery that left you maimed and numb for life sexually.

Another unsubstantiated personal attack based on an amazing lack of knowledge coupled with a firm conviction to remain ignorant while pontificating loudly.

What's done is done. The one thing I won't abide by is you trying to hold your actions out to others as "normal". I can accept that you are insane but the young and impressionable might get taken in by your otherwise lucid "logic". I can only imagine kids who do the damndest things like cutting to get attention and how they might interpret your situation should it suit their own form of temporary insanity. The social-contagion factor isn't a myth, it's real. And if you don't think it is, just go back a page and pick a few dozen studies to read up on it.

You can say more and say less than anyone else on this site, except for Nums.

In short, the reason I support Prop 8 is because I don't want abnormal to become normal. Sexuality and youth combined with curiosity and malleability are potent reasons to keep men like you from being held out as mainstream. I have empathy for you in that lots of people are mishandled when young to wind up being distorted and sad as adults. And believe it or not, my opposing what you did is actually supporting you in a roundabout way.

Nice try, Siho, it would work better though if you had any idea what you were talking about. Dinosaurs die of old age and newer, faster, smarter animals take their place. Rest in peace.

 

[Sihouette]

I'm not attacking you personally Mare, please accept that I am expressly against anyone [not just you] changing their gender based on psychological disorders..

Don't feel singled out.

The ones saying gay behavior is always and only a "learned" behavior are almost always from anti-gay or church backed groups and organizations.

The ones saying some people switch for personal preference but other seem wired this way from birth are most always independent much less biased research groups.~toppy

I'm not a church goer, nor am I religious, so perhaps your problem with me is that I don't fit the pigeonhole of "zealot" that you're trying to cram me into? Sexual preference is complex and we should completely understand it BEFORE we mainstream it into a mileu where social-learning via mainstream "normality" exerts pressures on future generations.

You are saying we should ignore comparative psycology and the volumes of references I provided in the previous page herein. Seemingly endless volumes of controlled data supporting "learned sexual preference" in mammals are there for the perusal. We have an entire industry [livestock artificial insemination] dependant on malleability in sexuality around puberty in mammals..an industry that feeds the world no less.. and yet somehow we are supposed to ignore the field of comparative psychology that tells us certain behaviors show up again and again and again in other mammals. We must at least entertain the idea and set about disproving the link to human behavior B-E-F-O-R-E we assume that it doesn't apply to people.

The burden isn't upon proof at this point, it is upon disproof that sexual preference isn't learned in human mammals as set apart from the preponderance of proof in other mammals..

Of all the animal drives we humans possess, and from reading endless headlines of career-wrecking sex scandals, sexuality seems to be the least controllable of the mammalian drives in the "mind over matter" arguments weakly offered to rebut my position.

Ergo I'm going to err on the "learned-sexuality" side of the debate and sane people with eyes that can read would do well to follow my example..

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I'm not attacking you personally Mare, please accept that I am expressly against anyone [not just you] changing their gender based on psychological disorders..Don't feel singled out.

Don't add lying back into your repertoire, Siho, your attacks have been very personal and pointed several times on this thread.

I'm not a church goer, nor am I religious, so perhaps your problem with me is that I don't fit the pigeonhole of "zealot" that you're trying to cram me into? Sexual preference is complex and we should completely understand it BEFORE we mainstream it into a mileu where social-learning via mainstream "normality" exerts pressures on future generations.

Being a zealot does not require religious feeling or allegiance, your endless, pointless, baseless, unsupported diatribes mark you as a zealot. Your inability to learn or even examine new information, your complete refusal to answer pertinent questions, and your thoughtless insistence that behavioral research papers about lab animals are one-to-one applicable to humans are futher indicators of zealotry. You can't and won't learn because your zeal tells you that you have all the information that you need already. It's another case of invincible ignorance.

You are saying we should ignore comparative psycology...

I never said that we should ignore comparative psychology--get your lies straight.

... and the volumes of references I provided in the previous page herein. Seemingly endless volumes of controlled data supporting "learned sexual preference" in mammals are there for the perusal. We have an entire industry dependant on malleability in sexuality around puberty in mammals..and industry that feeds the world no less.. and yet somehow we are supposed to ignore the field of comparative psychology that tells us if certain behaviors show up again and again and again in other mammals, then we must at least entertain the idea and set about disproving the link to human behavior B-E-F-O-R-E we assume that it doesn't apply to people.

You might as well be posting papers about the amount of yak dung deposited on the Plains of Rapshu each year, your animals studies have just about that much to do with gay marriage. Your zeal is showing in that you keep harping on studies that do not support your conclusions. The fact that animals in cages can be made to do all kinds of things has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The burden isn't upon proof at this point, it is upon disproof that sexual preference isn't learned in human mammals as set apart from the preponderance of proof in other mammals..

Oh, now gay people have to prove that they won't damage society before they can be allowed to have equality, right? Can you get ANY more bigoted? Nazis didn't have to do that, Catholic priests didn't have to do that, Ollie North didn't have to do that... Nothing like a double standard is there, Siho? Of course having no scientific education you won't be able to encompass the axion that one cannot prove a negative--your zeal is showing.

Of all the animal drives we humans possess, and from reading endless headlines of career-wrecking sex scandals, sexuality seems to be the least controllable of the mammalian drives in the "mind over matter" arguments weakly offered to rebut my position.

Ergo I'm going to err on the "learned-sexuality" side of the debate and sane people with eyes that can read would do well to follow my example..

I think that you could have profitably ended the sentence above with the part I bolded--it would have been far more accurate than what you did post.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I do quite a bit or research for my job and as a hobby too, so I took a look at some of the citations Siho has posted.

Sachs, B. D. (1996). Penile erection in response to remote cues from
females: Albino rats severely impaired relative to pigmented
strains. Physiol. Behav. 60, 803–808.

Sevenster, P. (1973). Incompatability of response and reward. In
R. A. Hinde and J. Stevenson-Hinde (Eds.), Constraints on Learning:
Limitations and Predispositions, pp. 265–283. Academic Press,
London.

Stone, C. P. (1922). The congenital sexual behavior of the young
male albino rat. J. Comp. Psychol. 2, 95–153.

Thody, A. J., and Dijkstra, H. (1978). Effect of ovarian steroids on the
preputial gland odours in the female rat. J. Endocrinol. 77, 397–
403

Thorndike, E. L. (1911). Animal Intelligence: Experimental Studies.
New York: Macmillian. ( I really liked this one since it's a century old.)

Tzsechentke, T. M. (1998). Measuring reward with the conditioned
place preference paradigm: A comprehensive review of drug
effects, recent progress, and new issues. Prog. Neurobiol. 56, 613–
672.

Van Furth, W. R., Wolterink-Donnselaar, I. G., and Van Ree, J. M.
(1994). Endogenous opiods are differentially involved in appetitive
and consummatory aspects of sexual behaivor of male rats.
Am. J. Physiol. 266, R606–R613. (This one is certainly an indictment of gay marriage considering the Endogenous opiods involved.)

vom Saal, F. S. (1985). Time-contingent change in infanticide and
parental behavior induced by ejaculation in male mice. Physiol.
Behav. 34, 7–15. (Wow! This sounds like a barn-burner.)

Wersinger, S. R., Baum, M. J., and Erskine, M. S. (1993). Mating induced
FOS-like immunoreactivity in the rat forebrain: A sex
comparison and a dimorphic effect of pelvic nerve transection.
J. Neuroendocrinol. 5, 557–568.

Siho, you should feel like an ass for posting all this stuff without reading any of it. Your zeal is showing.