Breaking news: Obama renouncing his church

[top gun]

one problem. obama insults our collective intelligence, however dim it may be, when he expects us to believe that all of a sudden out of nowhere his church has went bonkers-for-hate

People often find parts of this that are good... and parts of that, that are not so good. It's not at all uncommon to take the good parts of something and leave the other alone.

Trinity was one of the two largest churches in Chicago. It's been well know for doing extremely good things for the community. I see the problem as being the need in politics to have to be affiliated with any church for some to think you are "religious enough".

Let's be honest. If you're a Catholic you'll hear condemnation of condoms and birth control pills which not only increases unwanted pregnancy but also sexually transmitted disease. I don't blame Catholics for not just abandoning their church.

What they do is the reasonable thing to do. They take away the spiritual good that they seek... and leave the things that they think are wrong behind.

 

[top gun]

Where is that written? seperation of church and state? Could you give me a link

Sure, no problem...

Separation of church and state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constantine's Conversion, depicting the conversion of Emperor Constantine the Great to Christianity, by Peter Paul Rubens.Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government (not of society) and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

The concept has since been adopted in a number of countries, to varying degrees depending on the applicable legal structures and prevalent views toward the proper role of religion in society. A similar principle of laïcité has been applied in France and Turkey, while some socially secularized countries such as Norway have maintained constitutional recognition of an official state religion. The concept parallels various other international social and political ideas, including secularism, disestablishment, religious liberty, and religious pluralism.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE2SdF1fN4s

 

[Pandora]

Can we make this a new thread ? I dont know how but I do not want the topic to stray from OBAMA RENOUNCES HIS CHURCH! By the way he said today he is not renouncing them he is just resigning, so apparently the hate filled place is still dear to his heart.

Sure, no problem...

Separation of church and state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constantine's Conversion, depicting the conversion of Emperor Constantine the Great to Christianity, by Peter Paul Rubens.Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government (not of society) and freedom of religious exercise.[2]

Constantine is the #1 reason I could never ever call myself a Christian, and more importantly he has zero to do with our Governments separation of church and state. So other than saying he is a freak of nature, I will move on to your second part here.

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

I am some what surprised that you knew about the Danbury Baptist church and the letter from Thomas Jefferson. Most Libs I have asked do not know, even history teachers. They all assume it’s in the constitution some place. I am not sure though if you realize the letter Jefferson wrote the church was a reply to the letter the church wrote him.

The church wrote him expressing concern with this new constitution thing he and the government had implemented. They expressed concern that they may one day be forced to become one faith like they had in England. (The church of England) they did not want that at all. They wanted freedom of religion that they had not enjoyed in England.

In Jefferson’s reply he said “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

Jefferson never said or implied that Church can have nothing to do with government, but that only government can not get involved in church. Actually it was the oposite of what we see today due to a court case in the 1940's.

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion_in_the_United_States

The concept has since been adopted in a number of countries, to varying degrees depending on the applicable legal structures and prevalent views toward the proper role of religion in society. A similar principle of laïcité has been applied in France and Turkey, while some socially secularized countries such as Norway have maintained constitutional recognition of an official state religion. The concept parallels various other international social and political ideas, including secularism, disestablishment, religious liberty, and religious pluralism.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE2SdF1fN4s

Again here I am not intereseted in what other countries do. I just mean in America, but thank you for the added information.

 

[Andy]

Top Gun did not know about the letter, or anything. This is a common thing he does. He types in the phrase in Wiki... and then does a cut and paste. He knew nothing about any of that, nor that the Constitution doesn't have that phrase and mandate. Nor does he understand the wall of separation deals with Government leaving the church alone.

 

[Pandora]

Top Gun did not know about the letter, or anything. This is a common thing he does. He types in the phrase in Wiki... and then does a cut and paste. He knew nothing about any of that, nor that the Constitution doesn't have that phrase and mandate. Nor does he understand the wall of separation deals with Government leaving the church alone.

I can not speak for Top Gun but I can say that I have worked for the school district for almost 20 years and I have made it my point to ask every teacher willing to get into the topic if they know where that term came from. And I can tell you that Zero knew, and most were shocked when I proved to them how it all came about. But the stock answer was usually the same, well even if its not in the constitution or bill of rights, its a good idea. When you have a 7th grade American History teacher who has no clue where that term came from yet says its still a good idea when you prove the facts, all I can say is

 

[top gun]

You have got to be kidding. This is why I could never be a democrap.

Are honestly saying you believe that Obama spent 20 years, completely oblivious to the teaching of this church, until suddenly... just out of a blue, and oddly in the middle of an election year... the light came on!! His clouded vision of a loving <3 , all accepting church of god (with angels singing in the choir), was instantly torn into reality where his pastor preaches a racist anti-white pro-black, hate America message!! Oh the horror!... So now, just in a Forest Gump goodness sort of way, he thought to cancel his membership? Is that what you believe?

The answer is either A: he really is this completely dense, and that alone should disqualify him from being president... or B: his supporters are this dense and I personally do not want someone who appeals to a group that stupid, getting into office.

I guess I have finally gotten to the point I honestly care who is president now. I'm voting for McCain. If Obama, and his supporters, are this plain stupid... then even McCain is a step up.... as amazing as that is.

I think you should vote for McSame ANDY. You and McSame and Hagee and Parsley can all get together and try and console one another after the election.

 

[Pandora]

I think you should vote for McSame ANDY. You and McSame and Hagee and Parsley can all get together and try and console one another after the election.

You are so funny. You defend Obama's church fully (as does Obama)
You defend that he sat there for 20 years lapping up this trash, and he exposed his little girls to it.

But McCain stood next to two weird pastors and you can not let that go. He never went to their churches, he never was a member of their churches, and he got their endorsement because he thinks he needs it since Christians mostly can’t stand his freaking guts. The moment it came out these guys are whack jobs he dumped them and their endorsement.

It has taken months of trash talk coming out of Trinity church before Obama (distanced himself) from them. and still he defends them for the most part.

you insist on making a big deal that McCain got endorsed by two nuts but you say its not news of the black panthers endorse Obama, or he has two 20 year friends who are racist pastor/priests.

Your logic is partisan

 

[top gun]

NO Obamanation;40448]Can we make this a new thread ? I dont know how but I do not want the topic to stray from OBAMA RENOUNCES HIS CHURCH! By the way he said today he is not renouncing them he is just resigning, so apparently the hate filled place is still dear to his heart.

Do you not find it at all reveling that you ask a specific question in a particular thread... and then act like it's just amazing you that the answer might change to course of that thread. Possible solution: DON'T ASK THE QUESTION if you don't really want to go there...

Sure, no problem...

Separation of church and state
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Constantine is the #1 reason I could never ever call myself a Christian, and more importantly he has zero to do with our Governments separation of church and state. So other than saying he is a freak of nature, I will move on to your second part here.

I am some what surprised that you knew about the Danbury Baptist church and the letter from Thomas Jefferson. Most Libs I have asked do not know, even history teachers. They all assume it’s in the constitution some place. I am not sure though if you realize the letter Jefferson wrote the church was a reply to the letter the church wrote him.

The church wrote him expressing concern with this new constitution thing he and the government had implemented. They expressed concern that they may one day be forced to become one faith like they had in England. (The church of England) they did not want that at all. They wanted freedom of religion that they had not enjoyed in England.

In Jefferson’s reply he said “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

Jefferson never said or implied that Church can have nothing to do with government, but that only government can not get involved in church. Actually it was the oposite of what we see today due to a court case in the 1940's.

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion_in_the_United_States

Again here I am not intereseted in what other countries do. I just mean in America, but thank you for the added information.

That's all lovely and all but as you stray from the obvious. The point is not/was not that the Founding Fathers were not religious men. The point is that Thomas Jefferson himself, a Founding Father, had wrote and talked about early & often the need for the separation of church & state here in the United States.

People sometimes have selective amnesia about what happened in England and why so many people came to America in the first place.

The Church of England had so much influence, was so inappropriately intertwined with government... THAT IT ACTUALLY WAS THE GOVERNMENT!

Our Founding Fathers wanted this to never happen here. Freedom of religion is also freedom FROM religion.

i.e.
Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the gospels; he was uncomfortable with any reference to miracles, so with two copies of the New Testament, he cut and pasted them together, excising all references to miracles, from turning water to wine, to the resurrection.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestoes encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the War of Independence. But he was a Deist:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362)
Regarding the New Testament, he wrote that:
I hold [it] to be fabulous and have shown [it] to be false... (Roberts, p. 375)

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072).

Benjamin Franklin, the delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention. He has frequently been used as a source for positive "God" talk. It is often noted that Franklin made a motion at the Constitutional convention that they should bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations:

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up. Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

 

[Andy]

I think you should vote for McSame ANDY. You and McSame and Hagee and Parsley can all get together and try and console one another after the election.

Clearly. Anyone who proclaims some lame idea they spent 20 years in church and was completely ignorant of what was taught, and then has a bunch of idiots thinking it's true... that's clearly not where I want my vote going. That's plain ignorance. Join the club man, you fit in. It's not for me, that's for sure.

 

[Pandora]

Can you make this a new thread? then we can argue about it Please

 

[top gun]

Clearly. Anyone who proclaims some lame idea they spent 20 years in church and was completely ignorant of what was taught, and then has a bunch of idiots thinking it's true... that's clearly not where I want my vote going. That's plain ignorance. Join the club man, you fit in. It's not for me, that's for sure.

I assume the Senator was focused on his relationship with Jesus Christ and the good through Christ that can be done... and not the theatrics of some preacher.

That whole gotta be like the preacher stuff is a long proselytized Republican position not a Democratic one.

Everything is working out the way it should be... McSame and Senator Obama. There's not long to go.

 

[top gun]

Can you make this a new thread? then we can argue about it Please

You asked a question and I answered it with great depth and documentation. I think that's a case closed on that one.

 

[Andy]

I assume the Senator was focused on his relationship with Jesus Christ and the good through Christ that can be done... and not the theatrics of some preacher.

That whole gotta be like the preacher stuff is a long proselytized Republican position not a Democratic one.

Everything is working out the way it should be... McSame and Senator Obama. There's not long to go.

Oh of course. Which is why he renounced his church... In order to focus on Jesus instead of the preacher... which is why he waited 20 years, till the middle of an election year, in order to focus on Jesus instead of the preach. How random the timing was to start focusing on Christ....

Interesting... I suppose your theory of Church is you go just to ignore everything preached? That at least fits with your willful ignorance here. I wonder if a KKK member would be received as well claiming they just went to the meetings, to support goodness of white people, but ignored all that 'every other race sucks' talk?

 

[Pandora]

You asked a question and I answered it with great depth and documentation. I think that's a case closed on that one.

I disagree totally with you, make our posts go to another forum and we can disagree some more


Back to Obama,

He left the church too late; he should have done it 18 years ago. He has to agree with all of that horrible stuff or he wouldn’t have stayed in the church.

His kids should seek counseling for the indoctrination they have received by the church. Crazy idiots at his church who hate our country have effected his mind, his wife’s mind and their poor kids minds.

Check out her hope!

 

[top gun]

NO Obamanation;40467]You are so funny. You defend Obama's church fully (as does Obama)
You defend that he sat there for 20 years lapping up this trash, and he exposed his little girls to it.

You must be talking to someone else . I think it's frickin' ridiculous 50% of everything that comes out of any church. People TRY to go to church to be with a fellowship and spiritually study a faith... in this case Christianity and Jesus Christ.

And please don't go down the "his little girls road". Senator Obama has beautiful, intelligent, protected, well adjusted daughters. He and is wife would have it no other way. They are absolutely wonderful parents! I have yet to see any video of Senator Obama & his family in the pews when Wright was really on a tangant... and neither have you.

But McCain stood next to two weird pastors and you can not let that go. He never went to their churches, he never was a member of their churches, and he got their endorsement because he thinks he needs it since Christians mostly can’t stand his freaking guts. The moment it came out these guys are whack jobs he dumped them and their endorsement.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit . You are so full of it it's just hilarious. I could care less about John McSame's pastor problems. The only reason they got brought into this is because your insane swift boat side started the "big deal" over some preacher in Senator Obama's church. But yet again you play the victim card.

McSame didn't go the the Church because he's a frickin' hypocrite and a Flip Flopper on religion just like everything else. But he did COURT... more like beg Hagee to endorse him for over a year. It was kinda a Brokeback Mountain clergy style affair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JRb8ZRkPWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xuugq7fito

It has taken months of trash talk coming out of Trinity church before Obama (distanced himself) from them. and still he defends them for the most part.

you insist on making a big deal that McCain got endorsed by two nuts but you say its not news of the black panthers endorse Obama, or he has two 20 year friends who are racist pastor/priests.

Your logic is partisan

I know you don't understand but a few crazy sermons don't take away other good things that church... any church... has done. Being calm is what Senator Obama is all about. If you were looking for him to create a big scene that wasn't about to happen.

The KKK publicly endorsed Ron Paul. I'm sure we could find some off color weirdo group that endorses every single candidate for some self serving reason. Doesn't mean one single thing about any candidate.

Keep takin' shots... but Senator Obama is just simply a good family man.