Abortion

In what cases is abortion okay??? The Bible speaks against incest right? I will give you case which my job is handling now (can't release her name due to the current status)..an 18 year old mute girl fell out at her home and was rushed to the hospital and in the process of being examined the doctor informed that she was molested. Unfortunately she is really messed up down there and will not be able to give birth and it is confirmed that her dad and cousin was molesting her for sometime. My question is..If that young lady was to become impregnated in that assault, you are telling me that her mom should not have the pregnancy terminated? The government should not have a say in that.

Until we are in someone elses shoes we would understand better. I don't know if your mom is alive or not but say if it was your mom, wife, sister, grandmother, and etc... believe me your mind set would be different.

Let's approach this from two different perspectives. In the first we will assume that the feti is not a person. In the secons we will assume that the feti is a person.

Scenario #1 (the feti is not a person)

It does not matter what happens to the blob of tissue so we can make decisions based on any benefit to anyone else. It does not even matter if the benefit is great or small since it is being weighed against just a blob of tissue. So of course the ability to avoid carrying a feti that is accompanied by possible traumatic experiences is the best choice.

Scenario #2 (the feti is a person)

The rights of one person need to be weighed against the rights of another. The rights being compared are the right to life and the right to avoid a possibly traumatic experience. In almost no other instance do we condone murder just because it is more beneficial to the persons not being murdered so we should not condone it in this instance either. My personal feelings or the personal feelings of anyone involved make no difference - murder is murder.

Now just ask yourself which scenario is more supported by science. Does science say that the feti is a person or a blob of tissue? Look for the truth first and then base your decision on that rather than looking for what is expedient first and basing your decision on that. Expediency does not change truth.
 
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I'm sorry I know this out of line but ....well ....I don't care!

Look its this man thing...... we need to be in control, or at least feel like we're in control; its like having the TV remote control all the time makes us feel in command! Same goes for abortion, we've managed to convince people that its to do with relgion and god and all that stuff when in fact we're just trying to control what women can do with their bodies!
 
palerider;58780]Actually, what pro lifers want is to protect the right of all human beings to live. As to worrying about people injuring themselves while breaking the law? Sorry, I can't work up much pity. Especially if the woman is trying to kill a child because it is too inconvenient.

That's their cover. They're really Holy Rollers that demand that THEIR interpretation of life is everybody's interpretation of life. And since they can NEVER force a woman to carry a child to term they want to find as many ways as possible to increase her risk of being injured or dieing too.

This is a tandem situation. It is unlike any other type of situation. You cannot FORCE one person to be life support for something or someone else.


You know, people have been killed while comitting armed robbery. Should we make that legal? People have been killed while comitting all manner of crimes. Should we make them all legal? Your argument does nothing to justify one individual killing another for reasons of convenience.

My arguement justifies that nothing can DEMAND your body to comply with their needs against your will. It has nothing to do with stawmen armed robbery scenarios.


And just who appointed you in this free country of The United States of America to decide my wife or my daughters birth control. We do not believe what you believe. You can do whatever YOU want! That's the problem we're not trying to control what's best for you. We're completely satisfied just minding our own business.

What you believe is irrelavent. What you can prove or justify is all that matters and you can't justify your position. Hell, you won't even honestly state your position because it is too distasteful to articulate.

Say it top gun.

Say that you favor allowing women to kill a human being, without judicial review, or legal consequence for any or no reason.

Legally it's up to what the Supreme Court says. That's why women have been able to choose for the last almost 36 years.

The proof is the reality of the situation. No one has a right to force their religious beliefs onto another. Life at the time of the writing of the Constitution was "at birth".

And I have no problem at all saying it. A woman should never be forced to bear a child. The whole thing to me is viability. Up to viability the "life" that's claimed is the same from a fertilized egg to viability. Since I have ZERO problem with a fertilized egg being aborted (killed) I must also agree to let a woman choose up to viability when technically her services (body) would no longer be required.
 
BigRob;58782]I agree that there were back alley abortions. But during the case the lawyers made up numbers of how many to make it sound worse than it was. In reality this was not as big a problem as everyone wants to claim that it was.

If it was one it would be one too many. One that was totally avoidable because the safe medical procedure is available. I wouldn't want that "one" to be my daughter or anyone else's daughter or wife or mother.

Just pointing out options for of birth control that do not "break the religious views."

But shouldn't it be the people involved that get to pick? Should I come over to your house and pick out the birth control method I think best for you & your wife? Of course not.

The Pill is very safe and effective. It gave women the sexual freedom that men have always enjoyed... as they almost never become pregnant.

Rubbers break and then we're right back to OOPS now it's ALIVE!


That said, I have no problem with someone taking the pill or wearing the patch, but that said, once the baby is actually set in the womb, it becomes wrong to kill it.

Well to be consistent it really wouldn't matter where it resides. If you contaminate the womb so the fertilized egg can't implant it aborts. An abortion is an abortion. An once again it's the woman's body that dictates that. It's her final call.

This is some example that is rare and does not happen very often. But that seems to be what many people use to try to justify abortion to themselves.

But since we never know we have to leave the option open.

If there is a huge health danger to the mother, most people would agree that there can be an abortion, the problem is that is less than 1% of all abortions.

Well unfortunately not everyone agrees. And again after viability and no risk to the mother I think it is then reasonable to try and compel the birth.

If you do not want to bear children, try keeping your pants on.

But we all know that doesn't always happen. It's not a perfect world. Put everything together... incest... rape... date rap... without informed concent... health of the woman... life of the woman. And then add in the girls that just made a mistake or were talked into something they weren't prepared for that would be governmentally forced to be mothers... many possibly neglectful and even abusive.

We have the best system to deal with a bad situation. Let each individual woman choose on her own and live with those consequences.

I'm back out of the "abortion" thread now. I just pop in about every 40 pages or so to point out that nothing has changed. Nor do I think it will change. The genie is out of the bottle and women will never allow themselves to be pushed back to the 1960's.

Debate on... see ya in 40 pages...;)
 
That's their cover. They're really Holy Rollers that demand that THEIR interpretation of life is everybody's interpretation of life. And since they can NEVER force a woman to carry a child to term they want to find as many ways as possible to increase her risk of being injured or dieing too.


The question has never been about life. Science is quite clear that the sperm cell is alive, the egg cell is alive, and when they unite the result is alive. The zygote is alive and the feti it develops into is alive. It is also undeniable that it is human at every step along the way. The question is when does it become a person. Personally I think it is a dodge to have to decide when a living human is a person.



This is a tandem situation. It is unlike any other type of situation. You cannot FORCE one person to be life support for something or someone else.
Even in R v. W the court was clear that whenever it was a person that the right to life of the unborn person would supercede the privacy rights of the mother.
 
Well if it's a blob if tissue that is just a part of the women's body then of course it is an individual choice.

But if it is a living (verified by science) human (verified by science) individual (verified by science) person (not verified by science since this is a religious question) then it is murder. And since we don't make any other murders up to the individual to decide why should we leave this type up to the individual?


Since when is personhood a religious question? Person is a legal term and if you refer to Black's Legal Dictionary, the exact legal dictionary used in the supreme court, you will find that the definition of person is "a human being".
 
I'm sorry I know this out of line but ....well ....I don't care!

Look its this man thing...... we need to be in control, or at least feel like we're in control; its like having the TV remote control all the time makes us feel in command! Same goes for abortion, we've managed to convince people that its to do with relgion and god and all that stuff when in fact we're just trying to control what women can do with their bodies!

Exactly who is claiming that they want to be in control? Fabricating a strawman to knock down is a poor debate technique. Most pro lifers I know argue the pro life side of the argument based on human rights. Following your logic, those who fought to end slavery did so because they wanted to control one thing or another.

Unborns, at any stage of development, are exactly as human as you and therefore have exactly the same right to live as you. If you can make a rational argument for denying them thier human rights, by all means, make it.

If you don't care, as you say, why are you posting in the first place?
 
That's their cover. They're really Holy Rollers that demand that THEIR interpretation of life is everybody's interpretation of life. And since they can NEVER force a woman to carry a child to term they want to find as many ways as possible to increase her risk of being injured or dieing too.


Translation: That's your strawman and you are sticking to it. As experience has shown, you are incapable of arguing the subject from a perspective of human rights, so you fabricate a religious strawman to kick around.

The argument revolving around "forcing" a woman to carry a pregnancy is a strawman as well. All the law in the world can't "force" you to not kill your neighbor for playing his music too loud. No law can "force" anyone to refrain from anything. The law isn't about "forcing" you to do anything, the law is about having a means to punish those who do it anyway.

One other thing, the definition of life that pro lifers use is the accepted scientific definition. You have been asked repeatedly to provide some credible science that supports your argument and there simply is none out there that helps your argument. That is because it is you who needs to redefine what life is and what a human being is in order to make a rational argument.

This is a tandem situation. It is unlike any other type of situation. You cannot FORCE one person to be life support for something or someone else.

As I said; no law can force anyone to do anything. The law only provides a means to punish those who go the thing anyway. If you scratch laws from the books that fail to "force" people from doing a thing, then you can scratch them all. Are you arguing to eliminate all laws that don't "force" people from doing any given thing?



My arguement justifies that nothing can DEMAND your body to comply with their needs against your will. It has nothing to do with stawmen armed robbery scenarios.

Actually, your argument justifies noting. The abortion issue involves a clash of rights between the child and its mother just as all legal issues involve a clash of rights. Whenever such a clash occurs, the rights of one must give way to the more fundmantal rights of the other. The right to live is the most fundamental right we have and therefore any right the woman may invoke except the right to defend her life if the child represents an imminent threat to her must give way.

And just who appointed you in this free country of The United States of America to decide my wife or my daughters birth control. We do not believe what you believe. You can do whatever YOU want! That's the problem we're not trying to control what's best for you. We're completely satisfied just minding our own business.

What you believe is irrelavent top gun. What you can prove is all that matters. Can you prove that unborns are not human beings who have as much right to live as you?

And who appointed me? The constitution appointed me. When a human bieng is being denied his or her most basic human rights, it is the responsibility of every citizen who values his own rights to step up see the violation ended.

Legally it's up to what the Supreme Court says. That's why women have been able to choose for the last almost 36 years.


People were able to choose to own another human being for nearly a century after the US was established. The supreme court said that blacks were not human beings. The court has reversed itself some 200 times in its history making it perfectly clear that they do make mistakes. It is good to see, however, that when the court strikes down roe, you will be in perfect agreement because you believe that whatever the court "says" is just and right.

The proof is the reality of the situation. No one has a right to force their religious beliefs onto another. Life at the time of the writing of the Constitution was "at birth".

Abortion is not a religious issue and your claim that it is is nothing more than a strawman.

And I have no problem at all saying it. A woman should never be forced to bear a child. The whole thing to me is viability. Up to viability the "life" that's claimed is the same from a fertilized egg to viability. Since I have ZERO problem with a fertilized egg being aborted (killed) I must also agree to let a woman choose up to viability when technically her services (body) would no longer be required.

Me to. If the federal government ever sets up insimination centers and forces women to show up to be impregnanted, I will fight for their right not to be forced by the govenrment to bear children.

And again, what anything is "to you" is completely irrelavent. If you can prove your claims, then you have an argument but simply claiming that unborns are not human beings in the face of overwhelming, credible scientific evidence to the contrary is nothng more than you espousing your faith and trying to force said faith on everyone else.

I have argued this with you for a long time and as it stands, I have not made a single point that I can't substantiate via the law or hard science and so far, I don't believe that you have been able to corroborate a single point that you have tried to make with anything.
 
If it was one it would be one too many. One that was totally avoidable because the safe medical procedure is available. I wouldn't want that "one" to be my daughter or anyone else's daughter or wife or mother.

Most murders could be made safe if we called them all "medical proceedures" and simply sent the one to be murdered in to be killed.

But shouldn't it be the people involved that get to pick? Should I come over to your house and pick out the birth control method I think best for you & your wife? Of course not.

Only if their "choice" does not result in the death of a living human being.



The Pill is very safe and effective. It gave women the sexual freedom that men have always enjoyed... as they almost never become pregnant.

The pill has abortifacient effects and as a result, causes the death of living human beings. A pill without abortifacient effects would be perfectly satisfactory.

Rubbers break and then we're right back to OOPS now it's ALIVE!

If fertilization occurs with the pill it is also alive.

Well to be consistent it really wouldn't matter where it resides. If you contaminate the womb so the fertilized egg can't implant it aborts. An abortion is an abortion. An once again it's the woman's body that dictates that. It's her final call.


There is no right within the constitution to kill another human being for reasons other than self defense.

But since we never know we have to leave the option open.

Based on what rational argument?

Well unfortunately not everyone agrees. And again after viability and no risk to the mother I think it is then reasonable to try and compel the birth.

What does viability have to do with anything. Assuming that viability means something that it doesn't is logical fallacy. The child is nothing after viability that it wasn't before viability except more mature. It isn't a different sort of creature that has rights that it didn't have when it was a different sort of creature.

But we all know that doesn't always happen. It's not a perfect world. Put everything together... incest... rape... date rap... without informed concent... health of the woman... life of the woman. And then add in the girls that just made a mistake or were talked into something they weren't prepared for that would be governmentally forced to be mothers... many possibly neglectful and even abusive.

Can you make a rational argument for killing a child for the crime of its father?

We have the best system to deal with a bad situation. Let each individual woman choose on her own and live with those consequences.

I'm back out of the "abortion" thread now. I just pop in about every 40 pages or so to point out that nothing has changed. Nor do I think it will change. The genie is out of the bottle and women will never allow themselves to be pushed back to the 1960's.

Debate on... see ya in 40 pages...;)

You pop in to prove all over that you really have no argument to rationally justify your position.

I do hope that you will pop in after roe is overturned to agree with the pro life position since you believe that whatever the court says is just and right.
 
The question is when does it become a person. Personally I think it is a dodge to have to decide when a living human is a person.


They can not effectively win the personhood argument either.

It is possible via philosophical reasoning rationally answer the question of what is a person because we are persons and everyone around us are persons. It is possible to critically examinethe persons we see every day and determine whether a suggested definition of person adequately describes us.

If we look critically at some of the definitions of person that are advanced by the pro choice side of the argument, it is obvious that most can be set aside right away without discussion because they simply do not mesh with our own experience of what being a person is or they are simply not applicable to the question of what it is to be a person.

First, we don't "get to be" persons because we become autonomous, or independent, or even viable. These characteristics can be dismissed out of hand as not being essential characteristics of personhood because we all know someone or of someone who lacks some or all of these characteristics to some degree or another. In fact, we all lack them to some degree or another. You may have to be viable to stay alive, for example but viability doesn't tell us anything at all about what it is that is staying alive and if you are going to argue philosopically, it is imperative that any prerequisite you care to demand must speak to the subject of the discussion.

Nearly all of the most popular definitions of personhood suggested by the pro choice side of the argument break down in principle, it must be clear to any critical thinker that it follows that they will also break down in practice. Failure to admit this disqualifies one as a critical thinker and identifies one as an emotionalist. If we try to draw a line and say "beyond this point we are persons" we find rather quickly that there is no bright line in which we can say after this line we have characteristics X, Y, and Z but before this line we didn't. Unless of course, you want to limit yourself to some very arbitrary and superfical physical characteristics at which time, you enter the realm of the biological sciences and they cry personhood to argue philosophy and avoid the superior scientific argument do they not?

In attempting to set a time in which we "aquire" personhood, the pro choice side immediately enters the realm of logical fallacy. They must "beg the question". They must first assume that this aquisition of personhood happens at a time far enough along in the pregnancy so that abortion becomes a rational action and then try to construct an argument that proves whichever time they have arbitrarily set. This is a terribly flawed form of reasoning in either the scientific or philosophical realms. The failure of the application of this rational tells us that we must first try and find the definition of personhood and then determine whether it is a thing that we aquire or not.

They often suggest brain and thinking. OK, lets go there. The potenital for reason and rational thought is a matter of kind. We either have it or we don't. Realization of reason and rational thought is always a matter of degree and we all realize it to different degrees and none of us reach the absolute limit of our potential.

Working within that framework then, the work of being a "person" is not an issue of degree but of kind. Do you understand the difference between degree and kind? The sort of person you are is a matter of degree while what you are is a matter of kind. It is quite possible for any of us to be a better or worse person than someone else. We can be more or less ethical, or honest, but we simply can not be more of a person than someone else. To suggest so is nonsense.

The demand for some sort of actualization that the pro choice side argues for is based on the acknowledgement that the potenital for reason and rational thought is already there in each individual regardless of age or stage of devopment. The pro choice side attempts to treat this as irrelavent, but if one is attempting to make a rational argument, then it simply must be acknowledged that we are all the same kind of entity as the unborn and that the adult is no more and no less than a grown up unborn. The pro choice side may argue that they are only asking that we all agree on some "reasonable" minimum qualification for personhood, but once again, in principle this demand breaks down.

The first sign of breakdown in principle is obvious on its face. The problem of having to name the degree of potential that must be achieved in order to be a person. Look about you among the various pro choicers. There simply is no agreement even among those on the same side. The passion with which they hold their conviction is not a substitute for a rational explanation of why they may choose one point and another pro choicer may choose another. It also fails as reasonable substitute for a rational argument that higher and higher standards for personhood be met, even among post natals.

Then there are those who attempt to avoid the inevetable arguments by engaging the question of realizing potential as a sort of ticket to personhood. That is to say that they argue that we must reach a certain level in order to be considered a person, but once we are there, injury or illness that might bring us below that level will not "un-person" us. In this manner, they attempt to restrict the debate to those who are yet to be born. Again, to a critical thinker, this line of reasoning fails in that it attempts to change degree into kind but doesn't allow kind to be changed back to degree.

This line of thinking ignores what is required to be a person and focuses instead on what is required to "get to be" a person. This is a dead end because even if you conceed that more is required to get to be a person than is required to remain a person then we are necessarily brought back to what is to be required to remain a person after one has achieved personhood. Such arguments would fail to oppose infantacide in a great many cases and would fail to oppose killing of older individuals in just as many cases.

The logic in introducing degree into the definition of person rather than kind is simply flawed. Our rights are founded on the kind of being that we are, not the degree to which we achieve our potential. The extent to which we are different from each other in degree is not the source of our rights. It is nothing more than evidence of differences in our ability to exercise our rights and we all know that there is no requirement to exercise a right in order to have it none the less.

If the philosophical concept of what is a person refers to anything at all, it refers to something that doesn't need to be proven over and over. The essence of the person is something that is inbred. It is not something that we aquire somewhere along the line. Things that are aquired can be lost and may or may not be regained again. The fact that you are a person and can not lose that personhood no matter what may befall you is evidence that it is not an aquisition that you can lose. It is simply what you are.

It simply isn't rational to argue that non persons change into persons. To make such an argument is to argue that we undergo a radical and essential change in our natures during the span of our lives.

The problem with that thinking is that if the change is inevetable from the time we are concieved if given time then the change is not a change in our essential nature. If we initiate the change from within ourselves then it must be in our nature from the beginning and any changes in characteristics like independence, or where we live, or the amount of physical development we have achieved or how much mental capacity we have later in our lives is nothing more than a manifestation of what we were at the beginning of our life.
 
Since when is personhood a religious question? Person is a legal term and if you refer to Black's Legal Dictionary, the exact legal dictionary used in the supreme court, you will find that the definition of person is "a human being".

In that case I would agree with you. The fetus is undeniable human and undeniable a being.
 
And posession is nine tenths of the law

Once more, your line of thinking is flawed. No one can "posess" a human being in this country as a human being is not property to be owned. Now if you can prove that unborns are not living human beings, you may proceed with that line of thinking. Without some proof, however, it is just another example of the seemingly neverending torrent of logical fallacy that flows from your busily typing fingers.
 
Let's save the whale's. But killed the child. So it is ok to do what I want and not have to pay. Just take care of it like it was not a life. Where is the rights of the child? The dad? or Grandparents?

The bottom line that you are killing a child. Next old people? Where is going to stop? It will not stop at just keep on growing.
 
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A feotus is not a child.
A dead person is a human being.

Put that into your rights equation and see where what comes out.

Does a corpse have a right to life?
 
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