Abortion

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The Legal Issue
Basis for Criminalization
Personal choices about behavior should never be legislated, unless and until they infringe the equal rights of other persons. The old saying goes, "My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins." Persons have the right to make any choices they want about their behavior, including moral choices, up to the point that someone else's rights come into play. A person has the right to wear whatever they want, choose the color of their house, or even choose sexual behavior (alone or with others who have the capacity to consent to free and voluntary participation) and, however else someone else may disapprove of their taste or moral beliefs, they have the right to make those choices as long as they do not infringe the other person's right to the moral or aesthetic choices THEY believe to be appropriate.

Rights of Woman vs. Rights of Embryo
The problem in the case of abortion is that the disagreement about abortion is partially about differing moral beliefs, but also a disagreement about whose rights are being infringed. Those opposed to abortion claim that they are protecting the rights of the zygote/embryo/fetus from the infringement of having its life terminated.

If the zygote/embryo/fetus is not yet a person, as argued in the moral argument for the right to choose [see "moral issue"] then of course it has no moral standing nor the capacity to have rights that can be infringed, and so the issue becomes moot. Since that issue is covered in the separate discussion of the moral issue," we will not duplicate that discussion here.

But even if the zygote/embryo/fetus were a fully-endowed human person, with all the rights of personhood, all the way back to the moment of fertilization, the crux of the LEGAL question becomes, "Who has the right to control the body: the zygote/embryo/fetus or the woman?"

Bodily Sovereignty
If the zygote/embryo/fetus is a person from the moment of fertilization, then we are dealing with two bodies of two persons: the body of the zygote/embryo/fetus and the body of the woman in which it resides throughout pregnancy. Presumably, then, both the woman and the fetus would each maintain a separate and equal right to the sovereignty and integrity of their own bodies. The zygote/embryo/fetus would have the right not to have its body invaded or infringed, and so would the woman!

So, we must consider where the infringement occurs. If the woman is the owner of her own body (as the zygote/embryo/fetus is of its tiny, embryonic body), then her rights to control that body and protect its integrity would certainly not be less than that of the zygote/embryo/fetus.

During the 1980s, there was a court case in Ohio. Two brothers had become estranged over the years. One of them was stricken with a kidney failure and required ongoing dialysis in order to survive until a donor match could be found. It was determined that his estranged brother was an excellent match, but the brother refused to offer one of his kidneys. The ailing brother sued the healthy brother in court, claiming that Mr. Healthy did not need two kidneys to live, and had no right to deny Mr. Sick -- a fully-endowed human person -- the "right to life." Needless to say, the courts held that Mr. Healthy had the right to control his own body and could not be forced to have his body used to keep Mr. Sick alive if he did not agree. It would be a beautiful CHOICE if he were to voluntarily offer the gift of life, but as a legal matter it could not be FORCED.

Similarly, even if the embryo is human, it still would not have the right to force the mother to use her body to keep it alive against her will. If the decision to give birth is what she wants, then "life" is a "beautiful choice." But it is her choice; she cannot legally be forced into it.

Likewise, if a person with a rare genetic type needs a blood transfusion or bone marrow transplant and finally finds that rare, perfect match, but the owner of the organs doesn't want to donate, no reasonable person would say that the one who wants the organ has the right to demand that a specific person donate his/her organ, even to save the life of an ACTUAL human. The day is fast approaching when everyone's DNA will be identifiable, and could be stored in data banks. Maybe someday men will start getting phone calls informing them that their DNA has been identified as a suitable match for someone who needs a kidney and wants one of theirs ... wants to FORCIBLY use their bodies to keep someone else alive, whether they agree or not. The day that men's bodies can be used to forcibly keep others alive, controversy over abortion will end. Organ donation is a beautiful choice, and I (voluntarily) carry my organ donation card with me at all times, but it is my CHOICE, just as pregnancy can be a beautiful CHOICE when it is voluntarily CHOSEN. But neither choice can rightly be forcibly coerced.

A reader, Tommy, writes to suggest an even more poignant and relevant scenario: "A one week old infant is diagnosed with Leukemia and the infant needs a bone marrow transplant. After checking available donors it is determined that only the child's FATHER has a good match. The father says "NO!" ... Should the state be able to compel the Father of the baby (with threats of fines and prison) to submit and have some of his bone marrow extracted to save his baby's life?" Should a male parent be subject to the same demand that he be forced to use his body to keep his child alive? What if he didn't want the pregnancy in the first place? What if he is estranged from the mother (and the baby, too)? What if he has religious objections to any kind of transfusion? Aside from the moral issue, should the state hold the father to the same standard as the mother? Should any exception be allowed? No state that outlawed abortion prior to Roe v. Wade had an equivalent requirement that the father have the same obligations as the mother (except financial, of course).

Some might argue that a woman has "consented" to pregnancy by inviting the embryo into her body by virtue of engaging in the sex act, or that she should have made her "choice" before consenting to sex. (Such a statement automatically accepts the right of reproductive choice in the event of rape, incest or failed birth control where no such valid consent can be imputed.) Consent to sexual intercourse is NOT the same as consent to pregnancy. They are two different things. Even a completely voluntary sex act would not necessarily mean she invited the embryo into her body, since only a small percentage of sex acts result in pregnancy. The POSSIBILITY of an outcome is very different than its INTENT. If a person rides in a car, knowing there is the POSSIBILITY of an accident, should that person be denied the right to receive medical care, auto repairs or reimbursement from a responsible party if they have an accident ... since they KNEW that was a POSSIBLE outcome? A woman who has sex only invites the sharing of sexual pleasure, not the embryo that accidentally resulted. And EVEN IF she got pregnant on purpose, there is no reason to say that you can't change your mind or correct a mistake, especially when it is the rights of an actual human person against those of non-sentient cell tissue with the potential of becoming a person ... if the woman wants it.

Suppose I invite someone over for a drink. He stays and stays. He becomes obnoxious, in fact. I decide I don't like him. I want him gone. I have as great a right to evict him as I would if he were a burglar. The fact that I once thought I wanted him there, or even felt neutral about his presence (such as a door-to-door peddler that I don't slam the door on) does not make me lose the right to control who stays in my house. And a woman's body is far more personal and intimate than a structure of wood and stucco.

When a man forcibly enters and occupies the most private, personal, intimate part of a woman's reproductive anatomy against her will, we call it "rape." Though it only lasts for a few moments (barring additional physical assault and injury), the trauma and emotional scars can last for years. Yet there are some who would require, by force of law, that women be mandated to have that most private part of their bodies occupied by an unwanted intruder for nine long months. The trauma and emotional scars of a forced, unwanted pregnancy can harm a woman just as long as a rape, and also traumatize the child that is born unwanted.

If a mother does not want a child after it is born, she can give it up for adoption to someone who does want it, so it is not a question of choosing life or not; plus, by that time the embryo has become an autonomous individual in the outside environment. But even though an embryo may die from being denied forced life support if the mother makes that choice with her body, it is the loss of a life of a POTENTIAL human who has not yet developed full consciousness, feeling and its own set of life experiences. The embryonic POTENTIAL human has no right to claim occupancy and control of another person's body if it is not that person's CHOICE.
 
Werbung:
To any moderator,

Is it possible for me to argue for the other side of this discussion? I'm the patron saint of lost causes, and frankly, tg is a chair short of a picnic to be of any use in debate.
 
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To those who claim that the zygote/embryo/fetus has an equal right against having its bodily integrity "infringed" by being aborted, we must recall that it has no greater rights to its body than the woman does to hers. At worst, one could argue that, if the two are equal, that the woman would have the right to decide that she does not permit the zygote/embryo/fetus to occupy the most private parts of her reproductive anatomy, and require that it be removed. Theoretically, she does not have to "kill" it or infringe its bodily integrity in any way. She could merely remove it, alive and intact, and then both of these "equals" could then go on to support themselves in whatever way they are able. The fact that modern abortion techniques do not remove the zygote/embryo/fetus intact and alive merely reflects the fact that, given the same outcome (and moral considerations to be discussed in the section on moral issues) the procedure which is least invasive to the woman may be used.

Most Effective Strategy for Opposing
Some people oppose abortion but do not want it handled as a matter of legislation or criminalization, because they believe there are more effective ways to reduce the number of abortions through more effective education and availability of contraception. And, in fact, we have seen in recent years that, as education (both practical and as to values) and contraception have become more available, that rates of abortion do, in fact, drop, without the need to outlaw the right to make that choice.

Legal or Illegal Back-Alley Abortions
The coat hanger and the back alley abortions were moving arguments which originally convinced many to work for legalized abortion. Prior to becoming legal, dangerous methods of do-it-yourself abortions were attempted using instruments, or also using herbal methods such as combining pennyroyal with black cohosh or blue cohosh [more detailed accounts and precise methods can be found by going to any search engine, such as http://www.google.com and typing in as required key words: "cohosh blue black pennyroyal abortion"]. If abortion was again forbidden we would see a return to these back alley abortions, resulting in thousands of women dying. How many women used to die from illegal abortions? Anyone who gives you a figure on the total number of illegal abortions can provide, at best, a MINIMUM number. By definition, illegal abortions are not recorded. They are matters of secrecy. The only way to estimate the number of illegal abortions is to first determine how many women died from abortions, and compare those numbers for times and locations where abortion was legal and compare it with when it was criminalized. When abortion is legal, we do have good numbers for deaths resulting from abortion; when abortion is criminalized, many of the deaths are chalked up to other causes, so any numbers we do have are an absolute minimum. The actual numbers will necessarily be much higher.

Here is a sample of reported numbers of deaths from abortion:
1960 - All States Illegal 289 per year
1966 - All States Illegal 120 per year
1972 - 16 States Legal 39 per year*
1980 - All States Legal 10 -20 per year

*One of the states legalizing abortion by 1972 was my state of California.
The law to legalize abortion was signed by then-governor Ronald Reagan.

Prior to the introduction of penicillin, numbers of deaths from illegal abortions, performed without anesthesia or sterile conditions, were in the thousands each year. When abortion is performed under sanitary conditions, with antibiotics and antiseptics, it is an extremely safe medical procedure -- certainly far safer than a full term pregnancy and a childbirth!

Parental Consent
Although this is really a separate issue from abortion for adults, you can't compare birth control or abortions for minors with giving them aspirins (the variation of this argument I hear most often) or a tonsillectomy (by the way, in my state of California, and I think this is pretty common in other states, too, emergency medical care, including tonsillectomy or any treatment deemed medically necessary, CAN be given if a parent can't be reached, or if a parent withholds permission - numerous cases have been decided in which Christian Scientists refused to give permission for medical care, but it was authorized over their protests).

Giving aspirin, for example, is a matter of risk vs. benefits - aspirin does carry risks (Reyes syndrome, etc.), yet the most benefit you'll ever get is minor pain relief. On the other hand, the risks of birth control or abortion are far less than carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term, and the life-changing consequences of parenthood will last long after the teenager is an adult. The parents are not the ones who will have those consequences, unless they choose to, so they have no right to withhold their permission. Aspirin or other routine, minor procedures (realistic possibility of risk for minimal benefit) SHOULD require parental consent; abortion, as well as other serious procedures that can be life-saving or life changing, should NOT be subject to parental determination as the final authority.

Of course, when the flip side of this issue is brought up, we often see that those who raise this issue are not really in support of parental decision making, but rather only support the parent's right to make the decision IF it agrees with their pre-determined opinion.

Suppose a teenage girl wants to carry an unwed pregnancy to term, but her parents don't think she is ready for the life-changing consequences and they want her to have an abortion. It goes both ways. Should she be required to obtain parental consent for the much more dangerous procedure of childbirth? Should her parents have the right to make the choice that she have an abortion? Should there be "parental consent" for pregnancy? Or is this NOT really an issue of giving rights to parents, but turning over the decision-making process to those who want to force their opinions on parents, children and everyone else?

While it is best when the teenagers and parents have the kind of relationship where they can make important decisions together (which, in real life, is what actually happens) more often, when that relationship is abusive, antagonistic, or the parents will put guilt or pressure on the young woman to make a decision different than what she wants, then they must be prevented from doing so. This is especially true in cases of child abuse, incest or domestic rape -- no matter how rare they are. Especially in the case of incest, where the parent of an underage girl might actually be one and the same as the father of her pregnancy, it would be a cruel irony of injustice (not to mention a horrendous conflict of interest) to also give the parent who has already destroyed any normalcy of her sex life the right to control the choices about her future role of parenthood in a way that could further tie her down and make her a further prisoner of the choices HE forces onto her.

Defining Murder
The definition of "murder" (as distinguished form mere "killing") has comprised the following three elements throughout time, including the time of the Hebrew law givers and other contemporary civilizations:

a)intent

b) malice or wantonness (i.e., not mere for defensive reasons or reasons of domestic and international law and order)

c)killing of a PERSON (not virus, bacteria, insect, animal or human tissue that is not a PERSON)

A woman's intentional choice to terminate a pregnancy in the interest of her bodily sovereignty at most incorporates only the first of those elements; and, if the tissue removed is not even a human person or no moral issue is involved (see below), then even that doesn't apply.

Ancient Times
Abortion has been known and practiced throughout history, in virtually all cultures and periods of human history. In ancient times, it was performed by a variety of mechanical methods or using herbal abortifacients such as combining pennyroyal with black cohosh or blue cohosh [more detailed accounts and precise methods can be found by going to any search engine, such as http://www.google.com and typing in as required key words: "cohosh blue black pennyroyal abortion"].

American Founding Fathers
Even in the time of the Puritans and the founding fathers of the American Revolution, abortion was accepted prior to "quickening" (feeling fetal movement). To quote Lawrence Tribe, professor of Constitutional Law at Harvard, "In early post-Revolution America, abortion, at least early in pregnancy, was neither prohibited nor uncommon." (Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes, p. 28) He documents with scholarly references to original and secondary research sources the COMMON practice of abortion prior to the mid-1800's when evangelical Protestants, soon followed by Catholics, instituted prohibitions.
 
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The Moral Issue
Of course, if the zygote/embryo/fetus is NOT a fully-endowed moral person or if there is not a valid moral basis for opposing a woman's reproductive self-determination, then any attempt to use the force of law to impose one's purely arbitrary moral opinions onto others becomes an authoritarian infringement of liberty, and the whole issue of handling abortion as a legislative issue becomes irrelevant. Therefore, let us examine whether or not personhood can be ascribed to the zygote/embryo/fetus, and the moral implications of the issue.

Life? or Personhood?
The question is often asked: when does human LIFE begin? The correct answer to this question is NOT the one often suggested by those who claim to support a "right to life," namely that "life begins at conception." With the slightest thought on the matter, such a statement is quickly seen as being patently absurd. While no reasonable person would argue against the fact that LIFE (affiliated with the human species) exists at all points during pregnancy, this human life did NOT begin at conception.

Human life did NOT begin at conception. Human LIFE existed BEFORE CONCEPTION. Certainly an important change occurs when the sperm fertilizes the egg; a new phase of the ongoing life has been entered. But the fact remains that human life, as egg and sperm, existed and lived before that moment. The sperm and the egg are both alive, active, and genetically human (and each has its own uniquely individual genetic structure derived from but distinct from the male or female from whence they came and from each other sperm or egg produced). If you say that LIFE is what is equal to a HUMAN PERSON, then how do you propose to save all the sperms or eggs that are wasted and die without being fertilized? All of the arguments claiming that LIFE begins at conception would apply equally to the human LIVES that begin BEFORE CONCEPTION.

Of course, every time this point is made, other factors are then interjected. Several examples of a few common objections:

"Before conception there are insufficient chromosomes to be a person." Well, then, exactly how many are needed? The usual 46? Is it OK to abort a fetus with Turner's syndrome (45 chromosomes) or Down's syndrome (47)? And why is THIS purely arbitrary standard (a number of chromosomes) a valid basis for saying that some human LIFE is a person and other human life is not?

"It can't survive on its own." And a newly-fertilized embryo CAN survive "on its own"? So then, there will be no objection if we remove it from the woman's body and let it try to do exactly that? A newborn baby cannot survive very well on its own either, so would these people say it isn't a person either?

"They aren't actually human until fertilization." Oh really? Then what species are they? Dogs? Cats? Monkeys? They are alive. They are of the human species. To say they are not human PERSONS is to acknowledge that LIFE does NOT EQUAL PERSONHOOD. It is to simply acknowledge that the whole point of LIFE is irrelevant.

"A fertilized embryo has its own unique DNA." DNA is not what makes a human being a person, any more than a blueprint is the equivalent of a house. Sperms and eggs are also alive and are of the human species, and each has unique DNA. And, no, they don't all have the same DNA (or half of the same) as the male or female parent. No two sperms or eggs has the same DNA as each other. So if "Sperm A" and "Sperm B" don't have the same DNA as each other, they can't both also be the same as the male from whom they were spawned. Still, no one calls them the equivalent of human persons, or else a woman who doesn't get pregnant commits a murder every month, and males murder 200 million with every ejaculation that doesn't result in pregnancy.

Asking "when does human LIFE begin" is the WRONG QUESTION. The right question as to the moral issue is when does that LIFE become a PERSON.

Becoming a Person
Equating LIFE with PERSONHOOD reduces the value of a human PERSON to that of any other life form -- the same as a bacteria, virus, insect, fish or (unless you are a vegetarian) the sentient, warm-blooded birds/mammals that you kill just to satisfy your unnecessary lust for artery-clogging animal fat. Most people recognize a big difference between murdering a human person and spraying for insects or injecting anitbiotics that kill MILLIONS of individual bacterial or viral life forms for the health or comfort of one human person. I reject such cheapening of human value by equating personhood with mere life, and believe that until something more is added: sentience, consciousness, biological autonomy, personality, ensoulment, or whatever it is that distinguishes human persons from all other creation [the ability to laugh? to be embarrassed], it is not a person. A newborn BABY has all of these features, though in primitive form. A zygote or embryo in the first trimester has NONE of these qualities.

The essence of a human being is more than mere life, or more than even human chromosomes. A severed finger, or a lock of cut hair, or a fully-formed organ awaiting transplant, is human tissue, but not a human being. Sperm and egg cells are alive and human, but they are not human beings, only POTENTIAL humans. I would put 1st trimester embryos in the same category as sperm and eggs.

It includes feelings, consciousness, and independent autonomous experience inhaling the "breath of life" from the surrounding environment. It includes a soul, spirit, consciousness, thoughts, ideas, feelings, relationships; it is the essence of unique personality energy. This only begins when the embryo or fetus begins its own independent experience with the surrounding environment, after it breathes the breath of life. (I also understand that a newborn infant is not very "independent" in terms of its ability to survive, but at least it has begun its own individual experience, and it does not demand that a SPECIFIC, non-transferable caregiver be required to accept a 24-hour job against her will; any person [adoptive parent or other caregiver] could CHOOSE to accept that responsibility if the mother doesn't want it AFTER birth.)

I define personhood as holding a preponderance of the ACTUAL features, functions and processes out of which the experience of human personhood (including consciousness, sentience, experience, memory, self-awareness/instrospection, etc.) arises, as well as a preponderance of the actual physical features (arms, legs, internal organs, brain) which in their usual operation generate such experiences and processes. Again, an absolutely complete set is not required, or no one would qualify, but a general condition of having these attributes. A newborn infant, for example, has ALL of the mental, emotional and physical attributes out of which these processes will arise, even though they are still primitive in form and function and have not yet achieved their full operational essence. It has these mental, emotional and physical features in actuality, not the mere potential to develop them. In contrast, a newly-fertilized blastocyst has NONE of these actual features, though it contains a genetic program for the potential of possibly developing them in the future, if a number of contingent variables are realized. Those who define human personhood as merely the existence of human DNA are merely making a quantitative distinction based on identity, and not a qualitative distinction based on what makes human persons unique and special in their differentiation from other life forms. My definition, based on the qualities of personhood, distinguishes personhood from mere life, and does so in a way that would be qualitatively distinct from other life forms.

Is a newly-formed embryo more similar to a sperm and egg, or a baby? We should note that sperm cells, like egg cells, can be frozen and later revived for future use. Human beings who are frozen, no matter how carefully, cannot be later revived. Once frozen, a human being is dead. What about an embryo? Is it like sperms and eggs, or is it like a fully-developed human. Fertilized human embryos CAN BE FROZEN, stored for YEARS, and REVIVED. They are more like unfertilized sperm and egg cells than human beings. With apologies to the cryogenic societies, that can't be done to a human life - once a full (not potential) human is frozen, it is DEAD. Beyond a certain point of development, a human being who is frozen cannot be revived. What is the difference? The addition of a "spirit" or "soul"? Or merely sufficient complexity to warrant consideration as a human person rather than just an agglomeration of human tissue? When the soul departs from an ensouled person it goes somewhere else and never returns; of course, nothing like this occurs or is relevant if the being does not yet have a soul. What do you think happens to the soul of a fertilized embryo when it is frozen and stored for YEARS? Where does it go? When revived, is the soul yanked back from heaven and restored to the body?

An EMBRYO is no more equal to a BABY than an ACORN is to an OAK. Each has the POTENTIAL to become the actuality of the other. It is no more equal to an ensouled human PERSON than a house being built is equal to a completed home with people living in it.
 
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Another example: If you mix a batch of blue paint and a batch of yellow paint, you get a new batch of paint: green. But the paint existed before it became green; it was just changed or adapted into a new phase. But before that joining they were all paint. And the origin of that batch of green paint began in the batches of yellow and blue paint that formed it. If there were some kind of hazardous chemical wrongly found in the green paint, you can bet that it would be traced back to either the yellow or the blue paint and clearly it would have to be said that the green paint is a continuation of the blue and yellow that came together to form it, though we would all agree that a substantive and important change has occurred. However, in all cases, the blue paint or the yellow paint or the green paint, would still be paint. Not a painting or work of art, but just paint. All of them would have the POTENTIAL to become a painting (or perhaps just be used to paint a fence).

This is not to say that a fertilized egg is not a genetically-uniquely piece of human tissue. A human being is much more than the mere existence of LIFE. Insects and bacteria have LIFE and uniquely individual DNA; each is an autonomous, living individual. Is it a sin to get immunizations (that kill MILLIONS of individual lives), or to use insecticides, or to unnecessarily kill and eat the (sentient, autonomous) birds and mammals you non-vegetarians butcher to satisfy your lust for more fat in your arteries?

To be a HUMAN PERSON is more than merely being ALIVE. It is more than merely having human chromosomes and human DNA. It is a combination of life, human genetics, consciousness and sufficient autonomy that it can live apart from its biological mother [even if it still requires someone to be a caregiver, as long as the person is capable of doing so WILLINGLY, by CHOICE].

Differences between zygotes and babies
While an important milestone is clearly passed on the occasion of an egg (ovum) being fertilized by a sperm, it is nevertheless true that a newly-fertilized blastocyst or ZYGOTE is far more similar to the egg or sperm (one-celled carrier of genetically-coded material) than to a baby. It is no more equal to a BABY than an ACORN is equal to an OAK. It is no more equal to an ensouled human PERSON than a set of construction blueprints is equal to a completed home with people living in it. The POTENTIAL may possibly become the actuality of the former. For those who still have trouble telling the difference, here are a few clues:

a)newly-fertilized zygotes (which some have claimed to be human persons) are one-celled creatures with absolutely no thought, feelings, consciousness, sentience, will, volition or anything remotely resembling the essential qualities of personhood we associated with a human being; post-natal babies have ALL of these qualities, though in primitive form.

b)newly-fertilized zygotes are entirely dependent for the physical existence on the 24/7 full-time care of a single, specific, non-transferable care-giver; post-natal babies, while still very dependent creatures, are biologically autonomous and can be put in the care of any person who CHOOSES to accept the responsibility (either to provide temporary respite or permanent adoption).

c)newly-fertilized zygotes occupy the internal space within the most private reproductive organs of the female body; post-natal babies are not inside another person's body. And yes, "just a few inches" DOES make a difference. In other settings, a few inches might mean the difference between being arrested for trespassing and enjoying your own yard on your side of the fence.

d)newly-fertilized zygotes contain the "blueprints" or plans for the POTENTIAL development of human characteristics, but do not actually manifest ANY of the mental, emotional or physical features, body parts, attributes or characteristics of an ensouled human person; BABIES have essentially ALL of the mental, emotional or physical features, body parts, attributes or characteristics of a human adult, though simply in a less developed form, like a blank sheet of paper waiting to be written on.

e)newly-fertilized zygotes are NEVER identified by the Bible as having been ensouled as human persons (despite many references to pregnancy, birth and the formation of BODY parts being "knit together" in the womb); post-natal babies are clearly identified as ensouled human persons after they have been BORN of a woman and taken the "breath of life".

I have explained clearly the DIFFERENCES between a newly-fertilized zygote and a post-natal baby. Now I challenge those who claim they are equivalent or equal to please provide an unambiguous definition of "ensouled human person" that would apply to BOTH newly-fertilized zygotes AND post-natal babies, but would NOT apply to unfertilized human sperms/eggs or to other conscious, sentient creatures such as birds and mammals. In other words, having LIFE is not sufficient (sperms/eggs & animals all do) and being genetically human is not sufficient (sperms/eggs are).

Until they can respond to this challenge to show why zygotes = babies AND show why (even if it were a person, which it's not) it would have the right to forcibly occupy the most private parts of a woman's reproductive anatomy any more than the "right to life" of someone needing a bone marrow transplant or blood transfusion to forcibly control the body of an unwilling donor, then they are entitled to their opinions (for themselves) but have no basis whatsoever on which to claim a right to hire POLITICIANS to write MORE LAWS to ram their UNSUPPORTED OPINIONS down everyone else's throats and FORCE control of THEIR WILL over women's reproductive organs (i.e., legislative rape).

Measurable brainwaves (a minimal standard for thought or consciousness which even animals possess, much less personhood which suggests an even higher standard) do not even exist until after 25 weeks. Source: According to Bergstrom, R.M. 1986, Development of EEG and Unit Electrical Activity of the Brain during Ontogeny, In L.J. Jilek and T. Stanislaw (Eds.), "Ontogenesis of the Brain," Prague: University of Karlova Press and Morowitz, Harold J. and Trefil, James S. 1994, "The Facts of Life," Oxford University Press, a study of brainwaves in fetuses younger than 25 weeks, which included fetuses from 59 days old (8.5 weeks) to 158 days old (22.5 weeks), there were no brain waves seen before 25 weeks, although electrical (neural) activity was present (electrical activity is present in ALL cells, including sperms/eggs).

Embryonic Stem cells vs. Persons
Carried to its extreme view, the ability to equate a small agglomeration of insensiet cells with the value of a fully autonomous human person allows absurd conclusions such as by those who would wish to outlaw valueable medical research that would benefit actual human persons because a few bits of cell tissue are used in the process. The idea that anyone could object to embryonic stem cell research using embryonic stem cells because they come from zygotes in the first 14 days after fertilization (the earliest point at which cell specialization can begin), merely because they consider these undifferentiated cell to be equal in value to any other human person, demonstrates just how silly their whole premise is.

In the current debate over stem cell research, it is especially absurd because it is not even an issue about life. The issue is how to dispose of more than 400,000 frozen embryos left over from successful attempts at in-vitro fertilization.

Those who support embryonic stem cell research (including many who oppose abortion rights) want to use some of these fertilized blastocysts to develop treatments and cures for many of humankind's most serious and debilitating conditions: Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, diabetes, quadraplegia and paraplegia resulting from spinal cord injuries, and regeneration of damaged tissues that would otherwise require the transplantation of organs or tissues.

Those who oppose embryonic stem cell research want to throw out these cells as "medical waste."

Who is really "pro-life"?
 
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Comparing Abortion to the Holocaust and/or Slavery
Abortion vs. the Holocaust
Comparing the value of a living, breathing Jew to that of a speck of embryonic tissue is a tremendously anti-Semitic insult to a people who have been persecuted enough. There are several big differences: In the Holocaust they killed real, live, conscious and feeling human beings, with individual experience and personal histories. A 1st trimester abortion removes cell tissue that has no sensation or awareness or thoughts or feelings or experience of any kind. Zero. By the end of the first trimester, neural pathways have barely been formed, but are not yet sending transmissions. There is zero consciousness. Early embryos (fertilized) can actually be frozen, stored for years, AND REVIVED (recently a BABY was born from an embryo frozen and stored MORE THAN 7 YEARS after fertilization). No ensouled human has even been brought NEAR the freezing point (even briefly) and then been revived. With apologies to the cryogenic societies, that can't be done to a human life -- once a full (not potential) human is frozen, it is DEAD. Whether it is the existence of a soul added later, or the development of adequate biological complexity, or whatever, there is a big difference between a fetus (potential human) and an actual human. But even if a fetus WERE human, it would not have the right to dominate the body of someone else and demand 24-hour care for 9 months from a woman against her will; after birth the baby is pretty helpless, but constant, ongoing care from a SPECIFIC caregiver is not required.

Abortion and Slavery
The Bible is not silent about slavery, as it is about abortion. It is very pro-slavery. There are many, many examples in the Old Testament where slavery was approved by God (see Numbers, Joshua) there are also many times when it was even commanded that captives in war be taken as slaves (Num 31). Leviticus chapter 25 outlines the do's and don'ts of permissible and forbidden forms of slavery. Verse 46 specifically permits slavery, as long as fellow Hebrews are not the slaves. Joshua 9:23 commands that captives of war be taken as slaves.]

In the kinder, gentler New Testament, Paul wrote that slaves should be obedient to their masters (Ephesians 6:5-7; see also Titus 2:9-10). In IPeter 2:18, it is even specified to be submissive both to masters who are overbearing as well as gentle! Why didn't Peter, Paul or even Jesus speak out against this moral outrage? If they were afraid of the law (although it didn't stop them in other situations) they could at least have remained neutral on the subject. I am not aware of a single verse that condemns slavery as a general evil, only those that complain specifically when Hebrews or Christians are enslaved or otherwise persecuted.

For Christians to equate an anti-abortion morality with an anti-slavery is doubly hypocritical, since the Bible is silent on one (abortion) and takes a view OPPOSITE theirs on slavery!

Comparing the horrible human rights abuses of fully human slaves with the "rights" of undeveloped cell tissue is a terrible cultural offense against the victims of slavery and their descendants. Maybe white males just don't feel enough compassion for the victims of slavery, mostly from other racial backgrounds, or the victims of anti-choice policies, who are mostly women.

The fetus is not a full human being, but a POTENTIAL one any more than an acorn is the same as an oak. Thus a fetus itself, until born, does not have HUMAN rights.

And EVEN IF IT WERE HUMAN, it would not have the right to demand control of another person's body against her will. Some time ago there was a court case involving two estranged brothers. One had two healthy kidneys, the other's kidneys had failed and he needed a transplant in order to survive. They were genetically compatible, but the healthy brother refused to give up one of his kidneys. The sick brother - a fully-human being - sued in court to force the organ donation, saying he had an inalienable right to life. The court rightly agreed that, while voluntary organ donation is a beautiful choice, people cannot be FORCED to keep someone else alive by using their bodies AGAINST THEIR WILL.

The closest similarity to slavery applicable to the issue of abortion is the attempt to deny a woman's right to prevent a fetus from controlling her body against her will and making HER a ... SLAVE.

As I have said, the only relevant comparison between the issues of slavery and abortion is that of sentient being (Black slave) to sentient being (woman) who are both forced to have their bodies used for the interests of others against their will.

Please remember, that the modern women's rights movement began at the 1848 (pre-Civil War) World Anti-Slavery Convention in London, when Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Lucretion Mott -- women -- were refused participation and quickly realized that women were no better off than slaves and they better get that straightened out and it was just as much of a priority.
 
continued...

References and Recommended Readings:
Tribe, Laurence H., "Abortion: the Clash of Absolutes." New York: W.W. Norton. 1990. An excellent and balanced presentation of the abortion issue presented by an acclaimed professor of Constitutional Law at Harvard University. Available in most general bookstores and libraries.
Harrison, William F., M.D., "There is a Bomb in Gilead." Fayetteville, Arkansas: M&M Press. 1999. A compelling fictionalized account adapted from real-life experiences, written by an OBGYN who also performs abortions. Insightful and brilliant. This book may be ordered directly from the publisher, M&M Press, P.O. Box 338, Fayettevile, Arkansas 72702 for $9.95 plus $2.50 postage/handling (for total of $12.45). Dispels many myths and stereotypes, and personalizes the issue in a dramatic and realistic way.

We are pleased to host several insightful commentaries by renowned physician Dr. William F. Harrison, and recommend the following:
Post-Abortion Syndrome: Myth or Reality, at: http://www.wordwiz72.com/wfh-post-abort.html
Human Soul and Abortion Morality, at: http://www.wordwiz72.com/wfh-soul.html
Smug Religious Terrorists, at: http://www.wordwiz72.com/religterror.html
Election 2002 - The Mourning After, at: http://www.wordwiz72.com/wfhmd2002.html
Roe v. Wade, Bush and the Republican Congress - A Thirty Year Run Ended? at: http://www.wordwiz72.com/roe-v-republicans.html

Feldt, Gloria, with Carol Trickett Jennings, "Behind Every Choice Is a Story," University of North Texas Press, 2003. The president of Planned Parenthood collects letters written by mothers, daughters, teenagers, teachers, doctors, patients, activists, clergy, politicians, and other women and men who write about universal themes -- love, sex, pregnancy, health, family, and the future -- but each of their individual stories, told in quiet, moving voices, is unique. Contact University of North Texas Press for ordering information, toll-free at 1-800-826-8911 or e-mail at: pressasst@unt.edu or obtain more info from website at: http://www.behindeverychoice.com/
Morowitz, Harold J. and Trefil, James S., "The Facts of Life," Oxford University Press, 1994. An excellent scientifically documented study of early fetal development. Strongly recommended.
Patterson, Richard North, "Protect and Defend." Alfred A. Knopf, 2000. Fictionalized account that raises issues of politics, late term abortion and the Supreme Court.

Copyright (c) 1998-2004 T.F. Barans / Word Wizards communications
 
I have to say that it looks very much like top gun has turned to spamming the board since he has no actual argument to make. Equally baseless, and unsubstantiated material can be posted from the other side of the debate but would be equally pointless.
 
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The fetus is not a full human being, but a POTENTIAL one any more than an acorn is the same as an oak. Thus a fetus itself, until born, does not have HUMAN rights.

Is a fetus of the species homo sapiens? Yes or no.

Is the fetus alive? Yes or no.
 
Is a fetus of the species homo sapiens? Yes or no.

Is the fetus alive? Yes or no.

There is no argument that it is human.

The argument is whether it has full rights equal to or exceeding the mother's, and the value of it's life in relation to the mother's rights to her own life and body.

Both sides of the debate like to ignore salient features of the other side.
 
Obviously this debate could go back & forth forever... but tomorrow my girls and I are Bahamas bound for a week of fun and hopefully sun so I'm out. My position is well known. There's been documentation presented along with credentials of those involved as references & research including an acclaimed professor of Constitutional Law at Harvard University and medical doctors.

It's obvious that whatever opinions or documentation as valid as they may or may not be on either side... the decision of the high court is the one that counts in the legal sense.

Every day that goes by that Roe isn't overturned is another day of what I see as a fair interpretation of a woman's right to choose is upheld. What else can I say I see that as a very necessary thing for women. Hope it stays that way forever.

Others may wish for a change to an all out ban. That's absolutely their right.

I've been talking about this in here for nearly a year. I say let's give it a while longer. Let's give the legal system some more time to work this out. Let's meet back here after the 08 election and see if there's been a ban on abortion or if a ban is pending.

Sometimes people have to just agree to disagree and see how things work out. Have a good week everybody. :)
 
Werbung:
An EMBRYO is no more equal to a BABY than an ACORN is to an OAK. Each has the POTENTIAL to become the actuality of the other. It is no more equal to an ensouled human PERSON than a house being built is equal to a completed home with people living in it.[/COLOR]

You know top gun, it is statements like this one that make it clear that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You come across like an uneducated bumpkin when you say things like this. It is obvious that you don't have any education in the biological sciences so I won't bother to try and explain to you how patently wrong that statement is. I will show you a picture instead. Maybe you can understand a picture.

As you can see, this is a picture of a disected seed. The parts of the plant are clearly labeled. Inside the seed are leaves, shoots, and roots. There is a plant inside the seed. It is immature of course, but none the less, the plant is in there. When you look at an acorn, I guess you see just a hard shell that is completely unrelated to the oak tree it came from. If you were educated however, you would see a small, immature oak tree waiting for spring to come so that it can continue its growth.

WheatEmb240Lab_small.jpg
 
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