Abortion

[Gipper]

I did a search for the history of Ludington, MI. I find no report on a severe overpopulation problem there now, or at any time in history. There have been some criminal actions with regard to dumping but that issue has nothing to do with overpopulation. You seem to be confusing one issue with another and in doing so falling into the logical fallacy of confusing cause and effect.
QUOTE]

Well said.

This is what confused individuals often do. They lose one arguement, ignore the fact that they lost because they are illinformed, and then move on to make a totally unrelated new arguement.

I am very familiar with Ludington Michigan. Much of what our confused little friend stated has a shred of truth, but is mostly BS. Ludington is a beautiful place and much of the contamination caused by old industries has been cleaned up or natually attenuated.

So, another arguement is lost. Please try again.

 

[palerider]

Good point. Greens damned near always omit the fact that nature has a way of cleaning itself up in a fraction of the time they estimate. Remember Exxon Valdez. They claimed at the time that the environmental damage might be with us for as long as a century. How long did it take to disappear naturally? 5 years? They don't stop to think that more oil bubbles up from the ocean beds naturally, every day than any 5 Exon Valdezs'.

 

[Gipper]

They don't stop to think...

Exactly.

 

[dahermit]

If the population of Ludington had remained at 5 instead of 10,000 there would have been no sewage system emptying into Pere Marquette Lake. If the population of Ludington had remained at 5 there would have been no runoffs from landfills (one on Madison Ave. and one on Conrad Road, and one down on the Pentwater River that was supposed to have plastic liners used (ask former Acme Disposal employees about the plastic liners that were not installed) that used wetlands. If there had been no demand for Pelidow (Calcium Chloride snow melting pellets)from municipalites (population), there would have been no Dow Chemical Factory filling in the Pere Marquette Marsh. If there had been no population that resulted in industrialization that drove the demand for sand casting, there would have been no mining of the sand dunes around Ludington. If there had been no Dow, Harbonson-Walker, Ludington City, you could drink the water in Pere Marquette lake.
There is population however, and will always be. Nevertheless, the results of population should be mitigated and not allowed to destroy and pollute with the reckless abandoned that is/was evident at Ludington and other places.
As for pollution curing it self at Ludington, take a drive on U.S. 116 South and you will see that Dow Chemical is still dumping the grey sludge into its catch basin in what was the marsh. Also, go to where Washington Ave. and Sixth Street meet, and watch the Dow smoke stack spew out smoke despite the environmental laws requiring them to control the smoke. But, before you take any pictures, notice the sign that they have posted on the fence stating that it is against the law to take pictures without their permission(They got a court ruling that stated persons could not take pictures of their smoke pollution many years ago when someone flew over in a light aircraft and took pictures to prove that they were not in compliance with EPA laws.).
To the dip who stated that the pollution in Ludington cleans itself up, just prove it by going to Pere Marquette lake and drink a liter or so of the water.

 

[dahermit]

Good point. Greens damned near always omit the fact that nature has a way of cleaning itself up in a fraction of the time they estimate. Remember Exxon Valdez. They claimed at the time that the environmental damage might be with us for as long as a century. How long did it take to disappear naturally? 5 years? They don't stop to think that more oil bubbles up from the ocean beds naturally, every day than any 5 Exon Valdezs'.

You must have missed the TV special where they demonstrated that the "Clean up" was mostly cosmetic and when the rocks are turned over the oil is still there. And, you must have missed the negotiations where the oil companies agreed before the opening of the pipe line to replace all their oil tankers to double bottom type so that there would be less chance of an oil spill...the tankers with double bottoms were never built dispite the oil companies agreements.

 

[dahermit]

I am very familiar with Ludington Michigan. Much of what our confused little friend stated has a shred of truth, but is mostly BS. Ludington is a beautiful place and much of the contamination caused by old industries has been cleaned up or natually attenuated.

Examples? Has Dow Chemical dug out its slurry pond and restored the marsh?

 

[palerider]

If the population of Ludington had remained at 5 instead of 10,000 there would have been no sewage system emptying into Pere Marquette Lake. If the population of Ludington had remained at 5 there would have been no runoffs from landfills (one on Madison Ave. and one on Conrad Road, and one down on the Pentwater River that was supposed to have plastic liners used (ask former Acme Disposal employees about the plastic liners that were not installed) that used wetlands. If there had been no demand for Pelidow (Calcium Chloride snow melting pellets)from municipalites (population), there would have been no Dow Chemical Factory filling in the Pere Marquette Marsh. If there had been no population that resulted in industrialization that drove the demand for sand casting, there would have been no mining of the sand dunes around Ludington. If there had been no Dow, Harbonson-Walker, Ludington City, you could drink the water in Pere Marquette lake.
There is population however, and will always be. Nevertheless, the results of population should be mitigated and not allowed to destroy and pollute with the reckless abandoned that is/was evident at Ludington and other places.
As for pollution curing it self at Ludington, take a drive on U.S. 116 South and you will see that Dow Chemical is still dumping the grey sludge into its catch basin in what was the marsh. Also, go to where Washington Ave. and Sixth Street meet, and watch the Dow smoke stack spew out smoke despite the environmental laws requiring them to control the smoke. But, before you take any pictures, notice the sign that they have posted on the fence stating that it is against the law to take pictures without their permission(They got a court ruling that stated persons could not take pictures of their smoke pollution many years ago when someone flew over in a light aircraft and took pictures to prove that they were not in compliance with EPA laws.).
To the dip who stated that the pollution in Ludington cleans itself up, just prove it by going to Pere Marquette lake and drink a liter or so of the water.

Again, all management problems, not population problems as evidenced by places where the population vastly exceeds the population of Luddington which don't have the same environmental problems.

No matter how many ways you spin it, you can not make a logical fallacy rational. You are confusing cause and effect. The cause of the problems you name are management problems, not population problems. The effect of poor management is always poor outcome. You want to make a rational argument regarding the problems you name, then premise your argument on the actual cause which is poor management and you will sound as rational as an actual grown up.

 

[palerider]

You must have missed the TV special where they demonstrated that the "Clean up" was mostly cosmetic and when the rocks are turned over the oil is still there. And, you must have missed the negotiations where the oil companies agreed before the opening of the pipe line to replace all their oil tankers to double bottom type so that there would be less chance of an oil spill...the tankers with double bottoms were never built dispite the oil companies agreements.

Are you sure that it is from the exxon valdez? Since more oil bubbles up from the ocean floor every day than any 5 tankers can hold, how can you be sure where it came from?

As to actions taken by oil companies, that merely shows that people who make enough noise can get their way even when what they want can not be rationally defended. Like abortion.

 

[Gipper]

Examples? Has Dow Chemical dug out its slurry pond and restored the marsh?

Oh please. One small location and the entire city of Ludington is a cease pool - in your mind.

Why don't move to China? I hear it's very clean and pristine there. Plus you get the added benefit of living in a totalitarian communist society.

 

[dahermit]

Oh please. One small location and the entire city of Ludington is a cease pool - in your mind.

Why don't move to China? I hear it's very clean and pristine there. Plus you get the added benefit of living in a totalitarian communist society.

I will take all of it back...all you have to do is to drink a liter of water from Pere Marquette lake... while we wait for your list of examples of how former industire's polution in Ludington have been cleaned up.

 

[dahermit]

...and you will sound as rational as an actual grown up.

Born in 1943. An actual grown up.

When there were only a few Indians in Michigan, there was no industrial or other pollution. Population is the root cause of most of the World's problems. "Management" always fails. Ludington, Manistee (high rate of Leukemia, Elk Lake (cancers on fish), etc., all with their own pollution problems. When it comes down to it, what little town in Michigan does not have pollution problems? There were not problems before the population (modest as it is), grew into municipalities.

 

[dahermit]

Are you sure that it is from the exxon valdez? Since more oil bubbles up from the ocean floor every day than any 5 tankers can hold, how can you be sure where it came from?

Oh, Brother!

 

[Gipper]

Why would someone be concerned about overpopulation when abortion is murdering so many? And, doing so with our tax dollars. Must be abortion isn't killing enough for their tastes.

Pro-Life Advocates Plan to Protest Opening of Largest Abortion Clinic in U.S.
Wednesday, January 06, 2010
By Penny Starr, Senior Staff Writer

(CNSNews.com) – A coalition of pro-life advocates and religious leaders plan to gather in Houston on Jan. 18 to oppose what is expected to be the largest abortion clinic in the country.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/59334

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Why would someone be concerned about overpopulation when abortion is murdering so many? And, doing so with our tax dollars. Must be abortion isn't killing enough for their tastes.

Abortions aren't even making a dent in the growth of population.

I did like Pale's comment that oil spontaneously bubbling up was causing the pollution rather than the Exxon Valdez. I remember Ronald Reagan saying that trees caused air pollution too, but I can excuse him because he had Alzheimers, what's the excuse for the silliness you post? Early onset dementia so you can follow in your hero's footsteps?

 

[palerider]

Born in 1943. An actual grown up.

Do you believe that stating your age in support of your flawed premise helps your argument or makes you sound grown up?

When there were only a few Indians in Michigan, there was no industrial or other pollution.

Again, confusing cause and effect. If every place that had a large population had turned its environment into an unlivable cespool you could make the argument but that is not the case. If it is your argument that we should kill off the population to reflect the population 500 years ago, you are a sociopath.

Population is the root cause of most of the World's problems.

Sorry but management of resources is the problem, not population. Every argument you have made can be traced directly back to poor management, not the population of the particular area where the pollution took place. Were any of the perpetrators you named producing a product used only by the residents of that area and was the product required because of the population numbers?

"Management" always fails.

Again, flawed premise. Management does not always fail. It failed in the areas you name, but an indefensible statement like management always fails reduces your reading on the adult-o-meter by several points.

Ludington, Manistee (high rate of Leukemia, Elk Lake (cancers on fish), etc., all with their own pollution problems. When it comes down to it, what little town in Michigan does not have pollution problems? There were not problems before the population (modest as it is), grew into municipalities.

Again, flawed thinking. There were no problems before the polution, not before the population. The polution was a result of poor management, not the population as evidenced by places with far greater populations which don't have the environmental problems.

Again, no matter how many ways you spin a logical fallacy, you can't make a rational argument out of it.