Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

[Dawkinsrocks]

But the FBI had a bag with lots of weapons and all the I.D's of the 19 hijackers.

This bag didn't make it onto the plane ( not sure why the hijackers would be carrying a bag which, if discovered would wreck their plans)

So the FBI had it straight after the attack but guess what?

It took them 6 years to remember that the bag had the ID of all the perps.

Now isn't that careless?

And still nobody has been disciplined for any of the many failures on 9/11.

You must have to do something reallly bad in the US to get disciplined.

 

[GenSeneca]

Dawkins has no facts... No supporting evidence... No sources or links of any kind... Dawkins has no clothes.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

I'm afradi I do and have quoted them many times.

Lots of the issues around 9/11 are staring you in the face.

You know nobody was disciplined.

You know Bush wasn't taken off his schedule

You know the towers came down at free fall speed

You know there was no massive damage at the pentagon and no real wreckage.

etc

 

[Not Amused]

Truth, Gensenca and Federal.

I think you misunderstood what I am saying here.

The BBC at a further point in time, did point out that one of the named terrorists was still alive.

The authorities stated later that this persons identity had been stolen, reasoning that I can fully accept, the BBC did make a mistake in stating that eight of the terrorists were alive, this did turn out to be an unintentional falsehood.

This is not my problem, an important aspect which arose due to the original identity misunderstandings is my problem, the following problem has not to my knowledge been answered in a satisfactory manner.

Firstly within a very short time, the terrorists responsible for 9/11 were named and photographs of most of them were published. It was sometime (the exact length of time I am unsure of) later confirmed that DNA at the scene was used to verifiy that these men were responsible for the 9/11 atrocity.

Forgive me, but almost 3,000 people died at ground zero, meaning that thousands of samples of DNA were present. It would take decades to detect individuals DNA using previously verified control samples, to my knowledge,some DNA samples found at the scene have still not been verified.

At the time of the BBC reports, and later when the researcher for the Popular Mechanics was interviewed, some time after the first PM debunking article, he was asked to explain how one of the terrorists named by US authorities was still alive, he replied that it was actually untrue. That in fact the BBC made a 'mistake'.

When the researcher was asked by the interviewer how he knew this to be the case and this is on record, (see the link at the bottom of my post) he replied that DNA was found at ground zero that proved all the terrorists were who the government and intelligence sources named, no doubt about it.

The interviewer then asked a very pertinent question, the answer to which, to the best of my knowledge has still not been answered in a satifactory manner. What I am still waiting to hear, is with what exactly, did 'they' compare the DNA found at the scene?

If the DNA of each hijacker was identified, from what, where and/or whom did they source the control DNA with which to compare?

I am sure you are all aware that in a criminal case, where DNA is used as evidence, control samples have to be used to confirm identification.

As an analogy, 'Mr Robber' breaks into the jewelers, whilst he is removing all the gold rings and placing them in his swag bag a fire breaks out, which quickly takes a very fierce hold and burns him to death. As you can imagine his remains are pretty gruesome and wholly unrecognisable.

The police have to identify him, they find traces of 'Mr Robbers' DNA at the scene, after identifying by verification and then ruling out all other DNA present, a slow but sure process. The DNA, in itself contain no clues to identity. To correctly identify 'Mr Robber' a previously verified control sample of DNA from a source which cannot be disputed, has to be used to, without a shadow of a doubt confirm his identity. Without this control sample, you just have A.N.Other's DNA.


Here is the link to the PM interview............ There is a little bit of non related conversation, before the interview begins, a little patience is required I'm afraid.

http://www.apfn.net/pogo/A003I060823-am-c3.MP3

 

[GenSeneca]

Firstly within a very short time, the terrorists responsible for 9/11 were named and photographs of most of them were published.

Thats not really a surprise... The flights were identified as the events unfolded, the passenger lists for each flight were gathered and gone over, there were video recordings of the passengers available from the departing airports, the names of the 19 hijackers were found and they were identified on video, (3 of the hijackers had pre-existing profiles with the FBI).... So its seems reasonable to me how quickly their identities were known and became public.

It was sometime (the exact length of time I am unsure of) later confirmed that DNA at the scene was used to verifiy that these men were responsible for the 9/11 atrocity.

From USA Today:

In New York City, medical examiners used DNA profiles furnished by the FBI to match body parts with three of the 10 hijackers who crashed there. In the Pentagon and Pennsylvania cases, nine genetic profiles that matched no known victims were presumed to be hijacker remains, Smith says.

I don't think its unreasonable to believe the FBI had DNA evidence on 3 of the 19 hijackers... Its been sold as a big deal because people like the dude hosting that radio show present it as the FBI being able to match the DNA to all 19 hijackers. That's a pretty typical modus operandi for Conspiracy Theorists, overstating evidence to make it sound more improbable than it is - basically exaggerating the truth in order to make a strawman argument against it.

 

[TruthAboveAll]

Thats not really a surprise... The flights were identified as the events unfolded, the passenger lists for each flight were gathered and gone over, there were video recordings of the passengers available from the departing airports, the names of the 19 hijackers were found and they were identified on video, (3 of the hijackers had pre-existing profiles with the FBI).... So its seems reasonable to me how quickly their identities were known and became public.

From USA Today:

I don't think its unreasonable to believe the FBI had DNA evidence on 3 of the 19 hijackers... Its been sold as a big deal because people like the dude hosting that radio show present it as the FBI being able to match the DNA to all 19 hijackers. That's a pretty typical modus operandi for Conspiracy Theorists, overstating evidence to make it sound more improbable than it is - basically exaggerating the truth in order to make a strawman argument against it.

The irony of the current description of "within a short time" regarding the hijackers identities! The earliest critics following 9/11 pointed at how LONG it took for the hijackers to be identified.

You're dead on right on the DNA issues, too. When I listened to that (yep, forced myself to listen to the whole thing...) I was left with absolutely no doubt that the interviewing host was not going to listen to anything that did not support his preconceived notions. When it comes to CTs, objectivity and reason go out the window. Please, don't bother them with facts...

 

[Not Amused]

Thats not really a surprise... The flights were identified as the events unfolded, the passenger lists for each flight were gathered and gone over, there were video recordings of the passengers available from the departing airports, the names of the 19 hijackers were found and they were identified on video, (3 of the hijackers had pre-existing profiles with the FBI).... So its seems reasonable to me how quickly their identities were known and became public.

From USA Today:

I don't think its unreasonable to believe the FBI had DNA evidence on 3 of the 19 hijackers... Its been sold as a big deal because people like the dude hosting that radio show present it as the FBI being able to match the DNA to all 19 hijackers. That's a pretty typical modus operandi for Conspiracy Theorists, overstating evidence to make it sound more improbable than it is - basically exaggerating the truth in order to make a strawman argument against it.

My question is not a strawman argument. I asked you to be patient regarding the peripheral conversation.

It is a reasonable question;

You stated that it was not unreasonable that the FBI had DNA evidence.

Back to MY question;

Where/how/when/or from whom did they, the FBI, or whoever was involved in identifying the hijackers obtain verifiable control samples?

I post again;

If the DNA of each hijacker was identified, from what, where and/or whom did they source the control DNA with which to compare?

I am sure you are all aware that in a criminal case, where DNA is used as evidence, control samples have to be used to confirm identification.

As an analogy, 'Mr Robber' breaks into the jewelers, whilst he is removing all the gold rings and placing them in his swag bag a fire breaks out, which quickly takes a very fierce hold and burns him to death. As you can imagine his remains are pretty gruesome and wholly unrecognisable.

The police have to identify him, they find traces of 'Mr Robbers' DNA at the scene, after identifying by verification and then ruling out all other DNA present, a slow but sure process. The DNA, in itself contain no clues to identity. To correctly identify 'Mr Robber' a previously verified control sample of DNA from a source which cannot be disputed, has to be used to, without a shadow of a doubt confirm his identity. Without this control sample, you just have A.N.Other's DNA.

I am not aware of any explanation for this. This is my question, ignore the surrounding peripherals of the interview.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

The mistake you are making is using sound reasoning.

That is a foreign language to them.

They went to brainwashing school and cannot think logically.

If facts and reason contradict their own bigoted and vicious world view then they go with their bigoted and vicious wolrd view.

They must have very clean brains though.

 

[n0spam4me]

Just my bit on this argument, but HOW could the powers-that-be have ANY DNA sample as a control for ANY of the hijackers?
and also, given that the passenger lists from the airlines, the lists found and exposed in the media early on, did NOT have any Arab names on said lists, either the hijackers boarded the planes using fake names, or?

The entire story as told by the "official" telling is a FARCE
its like Maxwell Smart saying "would you believe .... "
The "official" story has been modified and revised so many times and the sad part is
that the cover-up is working for so many people!
The "official" 9/11 report has been revised at least once and the current printing of the book does NOT give any indication that it has been revised, the U.S. government is publishing a LIE!

There are revisions to the statements made by the Air Force, NORAD, FAA (etc...)
when it comes to the facts about the air defense response (or rather lack thereof) to the fact, and according to the "official" account it is a fact that for more than half an hour a commercial airliner off-course, and without transponder signal flew a course headed for this nations capital and our expensive Air Defense system did exactly what?

Bush & Cheney are hiding something and its time that the AMERICAN people DEMAND the TRUTH!

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Abso****inglutely

 

[BigRob]

Just my bit on this argument, but HOW could the powers-that-be have ANY DNA sample as a control for ANY of the hijackers?
and also, given that the passenger lists from the airlines, the lists found and exposed in the media early on, did NOT have any Arab names on said lists, either the hijackers boarded the planes using fake names, or?

The entire story as told by the "official" telling is a FARCE
its like Maxwell Smart saying "would you believe .... "
The "official" story has been modified and revised so many times and the sad part is
that the cover-up is working for so many people!
The "official" 9/11 report has been revised at least once and the current printing of the book does NOT give any indication that it has been revised, the U.S. government is publishing a LIE!

There are revisions to the statements made by the Air Force, NORAD, FAA (etc...)
when it comes to the facts about the air defense response (or rather lack thereof) to the fact, and according to the "official" account it is a fact that for more than half an hour a commercial airliner off-course, and without transponder signal flew a course headed for this nations capital and our expensive Air Defense system did exactly what?

Bush & Cheney are hiding something and its time that the AMERICAN people DEMAND the TRUTH!

Perhaps the FBI was investigating them and picked up a used cigarette, or a glass that was used, or an envelope... the ticket they boarded with even...

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

PATHETIC.

The FBI 'found' a bag that 'didn't make it on to the flight' containing weapons and the plot to hit the towers. Why the hijackers would try to get such a bag on board when they obviously didn't need it is obviously a tricky one for the FBI

But not bas tricky as the fact that six years after 'finding' this bag they 'remembered' that it contained ID of all 19 perps.

I know that FF and No Brain won't be bothered by this as they blindly accept anything Bush says but all sane people should really want to know why, if 9/11 happened as per the US Government's account, there are so many issues of this nature that are so suspicious.

 

[GenSeneca]

I post again;

If the DNA of each hijacker was identified, from what, where and/or whom did they source the control DNA with which to compare?

I have attempted to answer your question, now quid pro quo:

Do you think its unreasonable to believe the FBI had DNA samples from 3 hijackers? Remember, thats regardles of the what, when, whom (Interpol etc.) and where.

 

[Not Amused]

Perhaps the FBI was investigating them and picked up a used cigarette, or a glass that was used, or an envelope... the ticket they boarded with even...

Well yes possibly they did, that is of course entirely conceivable, apart from obtaining DNA from paper products, not sure if that would be very probable.

But Rob and this is rather important, if the intelligence services did actually obtain DNA control samples from the hijackers at some point before 9/11, with which to later use as control samples as you hypothesise here, then they, I am sure you would agree, must have had a very strong reason at the time for doing so.

This hypothesis, in which Intel services surreptitiously collected control samples from the hijackers would also strongly indicate that the hijackers were being very closely monitored, why?

For intel services to do this, there would have to be very strong reasoning behind it, as we both know Intel services do not randomly go about collecting DNA control samples from the public at large (or they certainly didn't before Sept 11).

This in itself, if yours and Gensenca's hypotheses are correct, raises other very important questions that remain unanswered and seems to me highly improbable, when one considers that FBI Director Robert Mueller declared that “there were no warning signs that I’m aware of", re: 9/11.

Eleanor Hill, staff director for the House and Senate intelligence committees inquiry into intelligence failures leading up to the Sept. 11 attacks also said her investigation had found nothing to indicate that U.S. authorities had any previous information about the 19 hijackers.

 

[n0spam4me]

The "official" 9/11 stroy paints a picture, just step back and look at the big picture and notice the bits that don't fit,
the lack of ballance, the lack of logic. The whole thing taken as a whole is WRONG!
Its just like the NAKED emperor,
Hey everybody praise his new suit, or?

its a CROCK!

But Just like George Carlin said,
They are not going to investigate themselves(!)

And the 4th estate has been sold out, so what are we going to do?

I'm not sure, but I'm not about to just take it in silence, when the GOV.
sez we can't possibly win this one, we can't have the Freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, what ...
because there are radical Arabs lurking in every shadow and we should be afraid, and just get in line and don't say anything?

What would Jefferson, Franklin, (etc...) have to say about this?

AMERICA has a HUGE PROBLEM!