Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

[Gipper]

There is no generally agreed upon definition of the term "liberal".

I also favor individual freedom and following the Constitution, so I'm with you there.

It is when you lump Mao, Stalin, and most of Hollywood into the same category that I begin to wonder just what it is you mean by the term "lib".

It seems to me that lumping everyone you disagree with into one category and then attributing all of the ills of the nation to that group is somewhat simplistic. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you have thought through your philosophy and do, in fact, have a definition for the term you keep using.

So, prove me wrong. It has happened before.

Just what is a "lib"?

You are confused. Those who can't recognize a liberal or their crazy ideology are incapable of recognizing anything. But, if you are merely gaming me, I will try to enlighten you.

The term liberal as it applies to American liberals usually refers to a "useful idiot." Pockets would fit this definition with a few minor exceptions. These people have been effectively brainwashed by the left into believing liberalism is the answer when it is really total disaster. They have been lied to and unfortunately they believe the lies.

Liberals are part of a larger group referred to as leftists. Leftists include commies, nazis, progressives, Marxists, socialists, anarchists, etc. Stalin and Mao were leftists and their murderous reigns was the consequence of liberalism on steroids.

Liberalism is all about limiting individual rights and expanding collective rights which is code for expanding the power of government. Liberalism hates capitalism and the private sector. They believe big government is much more trustworthy and effective. They want government to control everything even though history proves this always leads to lots of murdered or miserable people. Another thing about liberals is they know little of history or are so arrogant they believe history's lessons do not apply to them.

The liberal elite now ruling the country are leftists out to empower and enrich themselves. They do not believe the Constitution constraints them. They are authoritarians and they are very dangerous.

You say you are for individual freedom and following the Constitution, but I have my doubts. Anyone who believes the murder of the unborn is just or believes Obamacare is acceptable is not for individual freedom or following the Constitution.

 

[numinus]

Admit it. You are falling in love with me.

Whatever you say, chief.

Duh?

 

[Fisher of Men]

Good Catholics all!

Not even close dahermit. Didn't you know that the leadership of the French Revolution was violently anti-Catholic? Haven't you heard of the (so-called) Cult of Reason? Didn't you know that non-juring priests were killed for their religious beliefs by the Revolutionaries? Anti-Christians properly receive the blame for the guillotine, the massacres in the Vendee, and Napoleon's militarism.

Nevertheless, as for the French revolution, it was a class struggle. It was the rich who were guillotined. A very few compared to the death via starvation of hundreds if not thousands caused by the French noble class living in opulence while the workers and their children starved.

Not really a class struggle. Lots of ordinary Frenchmen executed.

quote: Actually only 8 percent of those guillotined were from the aristocracy: over 30 percent were peasants.

link: http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/parricide.html

And remember many aristocrats were avid readers of the philosophes, they were thoroughly "enlightened". The leaders of the Revolution were often members of the upper class: Robespierre, St. Just, and Napoleon all came from prominent families.

 

[Fisher of Men]

Many of the Founding Fathers in the U.S. were devout Christians. Jefferson and Franklin are usually considered the least devout, but even they accepted Jesus' teachings as uniquely valuable. Neither had any use for atheists.

quote from Franklin: As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it,

quote from Franklin: God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."

quote from Jefferson: God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?

quote from Jefferson: Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

quote from Jefferson: I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

More quotes from the Founding Fathers can be found here: http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

 

[PLC1]

You are confused. Those who can't recognize a liberal or their crazy ideology are incapable of recognizing anything. But, if you are merely gaming me, I will try to enlighten you.

The term liberal as it applies to American liberals usually refers to a "useful idiot." Pockets would fit this definition with a few minor exceptions. These people have been effectively brainwashed by the left into believing liberalism is the answer when it is really total disaster. They have been lied to and unfortunately they believe the lies.

Liberals are part of a larger group referred to as leftists. Leftists include commies, nazis, progressives, Marxists, socialists, anarchists, etc. Stalin and Mao were leftists and their murderous reigns was the consequence of liberalism on steroids.

Liberalism is all about limiting individual rights and expanding collective rights which is code for expanding the power of government. Liberalism hates capitalism and the private sector. They believe big government is much more trustworthy and effective. They want government to control everything even though history proves this always leads to lots of murdered or miserable people. Another thing about liberals is they know little of history or are so arrogant they believe history's lessons do not apply to them.

The liberal elite now ruling the country are leftists out to empower and enrich themselves. They do not believe the Constitution constraints them. They are authoritarians and they are very dangerous.

You say you are for individual freedom and following the Constitution, but I have my doubts. Anyone who believes the murder of the unborn is just or believes Obamacare is acceptable is not for individual freedom or following the Constitution.

commies, nazis, progressives, Marxists, socialists, anarchists, etc. sounds like a pretty diverse group to me.

Since this discussion has gotten pretty much off topic, I'm starting a new thread: What is a liberal, anyway? Feel free to read it if you want to continue.

 

[Fisher of Men]

The Armenian genocide was committed by radical secularizers: the Young Turks. These anti-religious zealots assumed control over all aspects of life in Turkey (even dictating what kind of hats people could wear - no fezes allowed). They killed approximately 1.5 million Armenians.

link: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocidefaq.html

 

[Fisher of Men]

Hitler and many other Nazis (Himmler, Bormann, etc.) were passionately anti-Christian.

link: http://old.nationalreview.com/shiflett/shiflett012102.shtml

Mussolini was a devout atheist.

 

[Fisher of Men]

Atheist Ayn Rand, whose cult looms large on the internet, was far more twisted than people realize. She acclaimed selfishness and the Nietzschean superman. She reviled ordinary human beings. She even devoted pages of her diary to the glorification a serial killer named William Hickman.

link: http://www.slate.com/id/2233966

 

[Fisher of Men]

Communists imprisoned, tortured, killed millions.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Soviet_Union_and_Warsaw_Pact_Countries

According to The Black Book of Communism about 94 million were killed by Communists in the 20th century.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_book_of_communism

 

[Fisher of Men]

The Holodomor: a famine deliberately engineered by the Communists

 

[Aus22]

Most of what we call the civilized world is Christian. For a thousand years it was Catholic. Surely we are responsible for the good achievements of this civilizations as well as the bad things.

 

[dahermit]

Most of what we call the civilized world is Christian. For a thousand years it was Catholic. Surely we are responsible for the good achievements of this civilizations as well as the bad things.

The "civilized world", of today includes China and Japan. Therefore, the "civilized world" is not "Christian". In the "civilized world", Christianity is a minority religion.
Also, the Greeks were the first with democracy, which is the basis for equality and liberty, and they were not "Christian".

 

[top gun]

Just as with any group seeking a type of control over a group of people. (and that's all any religion really is by the way) Christianity has some nice rules to live by... and it also from time to time goes off into the zealot fundamentalist crazy zone and causes pain, death & destruction

The Crusades... burning "Witches" at the stake... helping the Nazis... pedophile preists... the list goes on & on.

People who fail to understand that the church is truly nothing more than a type of power structure really set up as an alternative to other types of government are fooling themselves.

Personally... I'll take elected officials over church hierarchy any day. They both come in good & bad but the elected official I can do something about.

 

[numinus]

The "civilized world", of today includes China and Japan. Therefore, the "civilized world" is not "Christian". In the "civilized world", Christianity is a minority religion.
Also, the Greeks were the first with democracy, which is the basis for equality and liberty, and they were not "Christian".

This is nonsense. Christianity is still the predominant religion in the world today. It is about twice as much as the next predominant religion -- islam -- and is a firm majority in the western hemisphere.

The democracy concocted by the greeks was very different from what we know of it today. It was inevitably synthesized with early christian thought, which at the time, was the religion of slaves and the very dregs of society. Only through the ethical teachings of christianity did we gradually accept the members of the lower strata of society as having a say in political dynamics.

In the political philosophies of the west, the concept of natural law is inseparable. While natural law was first thought of by the greeks, this concept came to be used more on the natural sciences. To say that every man is equal as a consequence of natural law would have been an unthinkable outrage in classical greek thought. It was the christians who applied the concept of natural law in political philosophy.

 

[numinus]

Just as with any group seeking a type of control over a group of people. (and that's all any religion really is by the way) Christianity has some nice rules to live by... and it also from time to time goes off into the zealot fundamentalist crazy zone and causes pain, death & destruction

The Crusades... burning "Witches" at the stake... helping the Nazis... pedophile preists... the list goes on & on.

People who fail to understand that the church is truly nothing more than a type of power structure really set up as an alternative to other types of government are fooling themselves.

Personally... I'll take elected officials over church hierarchy any day. They both come in good & bad but the elected official I can do something about.

The distinction between the political edifice of the church and the state had been made as early as the 4th century in the semi-political, semi-religious treatise civitates dei by augistine, bishop of hippo. That is one of the church's most enduring legacy to political thought.

It really isn't the problem of the church if some people, both within and outside the church, don't get it, no?