Is Christianity responsible for equality and liberty?

[Fisher of Men]

Some Nobel Prize winning scientists who believed in God:

Albert Einstein Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Max Planck Nobel Laureate in Physics Protestant
Erwin Schrodinger Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic
Werner Heisenberg Nobel Laureate in Physics Lutheran
Robert Millikan Nobel Laureate in Physics probably Congregationalist
Charles Hard Townes Nobel Laureate in Physics United Church of Christ (raised Baptist)
Arthur Schawlow Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William D. Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William H. Bragg Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Guglielmo Marconi Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic and Anglican
Arthur Compton Nobel Laureate in Physics Presbyterian
Arno Penzias Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Nevill Mott Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Isidor Isaac Rabi Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Abdus Salam Nobel Laureate in Physics Muslim
Antony Hewish Nobel Laureate in Physics Christian (denomination?)
Joseph H. Taylor, Jr. Nobel Laureate in Physics Quaker
Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
John Eccles Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Joseph Murray Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Ernst Chain Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
George Wald Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
Ronald Ross Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Christian (denomination?)
Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Christian (denomination?)
Christian Anfinsen Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Walter Kohn Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Richard Smalley Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Christian (denomination?)

LINK

 

[Fisher of Men]

Here's where the study comes from dahermit, I think it is valid:

quote: This figure, cited in the book Pedophiles and Priests by non-Catholic scholar, Philip Jenkins, is from the most comprehensive study to date,

same link

Ummmm. The Salem Witch "Trials".

Also, "Witches" do not exist. No one has conspired with the devil and received magical powers. However: "...suffer a witch not to live...", would seem to establish the religious foundation for torture and murder of innocent women.

The Salem witch trials - the worst in American history - resulted in 20 people killed. While this is of course terrible, it is a trivial number compared to atheist totals. Stalin killed more than this before breakfast every day.

Also you might look to non-religious causes for the witch hysteria. Some interesting theories about why the girls went crazy. Some scholars blame: convulsive ergotism caused by eating rye bread made from grain infected by the fungus Claviceps purpurea (which is the natural substance from which LSD is derived)

LINK

 

[Fisher of Men]

Also, "Witches" do not exist.

Maybe dahermit, but have you seen these women:

 

[dahermit]

Oh Top Gun you are a moron, I didn't understand. Jim Jones was sort of a Satanist and he went to Guyana not Ghana. ha ha ha

You had better do some more reseach on Jim Jones before you call him a "Satanist" and someone else a "moron". It makes you look the fool.

 

[dahermit]

Maybe dahermit, but have you seen these women:

If these are the "witches", referred to in the bible, than we should "...suffer them not to live..."?
These are not witches, these are unpleasant people.

 

[dahermit]

Some Nobel Prize winning scientists who believed in God:

Albert Einstein Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Max Planck Nobel Laureate in Physics Protestant
Erwin Schrodinger Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic
Werner Heisenberg Nobel Laureate in Physics Lutheran
Robert Millikan Nobel Laureate in Physics probably Congregationalist
Charles Hard Townes Nobel Laureate in Physics United Church of Christ (raised Baptist)
Arthur Schawlow Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William D. Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William H. Bragg Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Guglielmo Marconi Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic and Anglican
Arthur Compton Nobel Laureate in Physics Presbyterian
Arno Penzias Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Nevill Mott Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Isidor Isaac Rabi Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Abdus Salam Nobel Laureate in Physics Muslim
Antony Hewish Nobel Laureate in Physics Christian (denomination?)
Joseph H. Taylor, Jr. Nobel Laureate in Physics Quaker
Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
John Eccles Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Joseph Murray Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Ernst Chain Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
George Wald Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
Ronald Ross Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Christian (denomination?)
Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Christian (denomination?)
Christian Anfinsen Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Walter Kohn Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Richard Smalley Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Christian (denomination?)

LINK

Look up: "Fallacy of an appeal to authority."

 

[dahermit]

Also you might look to non-religious causes for the witch hysteria. Some interesting theories about why the girls went crazy. Some scholars blame: convulsive ergotism caused by eating rye bread made from grain infected by the fungus Claviceps purpurea (which is the natural substance from which LSD is derived)

The adolescent girls in that instance had no power to execute witches. The concept of witches existing, and therefore resulting in the death of innocent women was the result of stupid people believing in the bible.

If you believe that there are demons, witches, demonic possessions, as stated in the bible and by the catholic church, you are a naive fool, regardless of the number of deaths caused by some non-religious people.

 

[dahermit]

Nope. Been working. Miss me? You do know some of us have better things to do than fondling cattle. Hee-haw!



No. It is not accurate at all.

The equality and liberty imagined by the classical greeks are those that result from the political association. People are equal by virtue of citizenship. One is a citizen by virtue of property.

The equality and liberty we now know is the logical conclusion of natural law. We are equal simply because we are all human beings regardless of our status within the political association.

And natural law as applied to social and political philosophy was first thought of by early christian thinkers. After all, christianity then was the religion of slaves.

Is the distinction clear enough or would you rather you fondle your cattle some more?

Cattle.

 

[PLC1]

Top Gun is far left on some things and kind of in the middle on a few and even right wing on at least one topic that I know of but he is not a moron

Agreed, and while he may have confused Guyana with Ghana, his point about organized religion and power is right on target.

 

[Fisher of Men]

dahermit, Jim Jones seemed to hate the Bible as much as you.

quote:[He] slammed the Bible on the table yelling "I've got to destroy this paper idol!" In one sermon, Jones said that, "You're gonna help yourself, or you'll get no help! There's only one hope of glory; that's within you! Nobody's gonna come out of the sky! There's no heaven up there! We'll have to make heaven down here!"

LINK

Look up: "Fallacy of an appeal to authority."

I was not trying to prove the existence of God, I was responding to Top Gun's implication that only pre-scientific primitives believe in God or the supernatural.

His statement:

The "church" all man made religion for that matter originated as nothing more than tribes of (compared to today) very primitive people without education nor scientific knowledge trying to explain things that they simply did not understand

These are not witches, these are unpleasant people.

I was just joking.

And you can look up: "obtuse", "humorless", and "bestiality".

 

[numinus]

The "church" all man made religion for that matter originated as nothing more than tribes of (compared to today) very primitive people without education nor scientific knowledge trying to explain things that they simply did not understand... things they were afraid of... and trying to set some type of order in their small societies (governing).

As the governing by Kings & Queens & Emperors was often heavy handed and unfair people often turned to those in the "church" as an alternative power. This was so common that many rulers brought in sort of a "church wing" to their own government as not to be out flanked by outside interests.

But ghosts & goblin stories are still just stories. Man made religion is set up by a leadership not elected by the people striving to have POWER over other people... and that can turn out very badly as these groups gain bravado.

Jim Jones's People's Temple in Ghana... David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco... the Taliban...

All I can say in great honesty is... Beware those who say they speak for God! Because the invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.

Nonsense.

The doctors of the church responsible for such treatise as summa theologica, civitates dei, etc. and who were crucial in fashioning dogma WERE LEARNED MEN. Augustine's 'civitates' was the first treatise to discuss the role of oganized religion within the political organism. Thomas aquainas' 'summa' expounded theology within an aristotlean frame work.

The fact is, the catholic church has two very dominiant traditions -- the religious fervor of the petric tradition and the more cerebral pauline tradition. One can choose to explain christian theology from the two traditions -- depending on the intellectual capacity of the listener.

The american fundamentalist 'barn yard' preacher, however, is an entirely different specie of fungus that defies any logical classification -- if that is what you are refering to.

 

[dahermit]

The fact is, the catholic church has two very dominiant traditions -- the religious fervor of the petric tradition and the more cerebral pauline tradition. One can choose to explain christian theology from the two traditions -- depending on the intellectual capacity of the listener.

The american fundamentalist 'barn yard' preacher, however, is an entirely different specie of fungus that defies any logical classification -- if that is what you are refering to.

By comparison to the Catholic Church the, "The american fundamentalist 'barn yard' preacher...", represents a crude religion. It does not have the "tradition" of buggering alter boys or the protection of the "Holy Mother church" via transfer if he does. Yes, the Catholic church has clearly superior "traditions".

 

[Aus22]

The subject seems to have change from a discussion of Christianity responsible for equality and liberty to an attack on Catholics. For over a thousand years the only important religion in Europe was Catholic. The world did advance in this time. Perhaps not as much as some would like but advances in science and morality did take place. Some of these who advance these ideas were Catholic. Some Catholics oppose them but the majority supported them. The Spanish missionaries in South America were the first to oppose the slave trade. It was the Catholic church that abolished the cruelty of the Colosuem. Catholic scientist were responsible for advances in medicine. In fact most hospitals were founded by Catholic Orders. The early advances to democracy stated in Catholic Florence. The French and American revolutions had the support of many Catholics. The majority of democracies today are Christian. Catholic Social teaching has inspire gain rights for workers, women and minorities. It has been Catholic and other universities that led the enlightement.

 

[The Scotsman]

The american fundamentalist 'barn yard' preacher, however, is an entirely different specie of fungus that defies any logical classification -- if that is what you are refering to.

Don't forget context! The "Learned" men you refer to at the time of the foundation of Christianity were practising and preaching in the middle of the dominance of the Roman Empire which was itself a pagan culture and those "learned" scholars were themselves regarded as odd "barn yard" preachers. The vast majority of the Empire's population regarded them much the same as something nasty and smelly that you just stepped in.

Absolute faith is one thing but the context of your faith and where and how it arrived are different; don't forget that these "Christians" you refer to were still just a hokey Jewish sect with myriads of divergent views on what we now call "christianity" most of which have been deleted from the records for obvious reasons.

You must also realise that the interpretations of these "learned" works have been subject to editing, interpretation and alteration as they have been passed down and translated over the ages. The Catholic church in the early day of the downfall of the Roman Empire and during the subsequent Dark Ages was very good at spin. They didn't call it the Dark Ages because the weather was a bit cloudy!!

 

[dahermit]

The subject seems to have change from a discussion of Christianity responsible for equality and liberty to an attack on Catholics. For over a thousand years the only important religion in Europe was Catholic. The world did advance in this time. Perhaps not as much as some would like but advances in science and morality did take place. Some of these who advance these ideas were Catholic. Some Catholics oppose them but the majority supported them. The Spanish missionaries in South America were the first to oppose the slave trade. It was the Catholic church that abolished the cruelty of the Colosuem. Catholic scientist were responsible for advances in medicine. In fact most hospitals were founded by Catholic Orders. The early advances to democracy stated in Catholic Florence. The French and American revolutions had the support of many Catholics. The majority of democracies today are Christian. Catholic Social teaching has inspire gain rights for workers, women and minorities. It has been Catholic and other universities that led the enlightement.

My reason for my contempt for the Catholic religion stems from the fact that, by my observation of Catholic's behavior, they do not practice in their daily lives what they claim to believe. Of all the religions I have observed, they are at the end of the scale.

On the other hand, my Amish neighbors do not earn my contempt. They practice in everyday lives what their religion tells them they must do. I have only one neighbor that is not Amish, the rest are. Being an atheist, I have no motive for stating other than the truth in what I have observed.

Furthermore, my father was a Catholic as were all my relatives on my fathers side.. All three of my sister-in-laws are Catholic. Almost all of my childhood friends and neighbors were Catholic. I lived within two blocks of a Catholic Primary School and Church. I dated mostly Catholic girls in my youth. In short, the only way I could be more knowledgeable about typical Catholic behavior(not necessarily the tenets of that religion), would have been born into the Catholic faith.

The Amish do not just practice old-fashion life style, they practice the commandments in the Bible. They love their neighbor as they love themselves. As just one example, in our neighborhood they took it upon themselves to care for an non-Amish invelid woman neighbor for several years, without accepting payment, for several years until she died...with no gain for themselves. They went out of their way to introduce themselves to my wife and me when we moved into the area...all of them.

The Catholics I have observed on the other hand, generally pay lip-service to but ignore the commandments. They do not love their neighbor, they repeat the same sins, over and over despite the part of confession that says they are intended to intend not repeat that sin. And as for making amends, that never happens. For Catholics, faithfully perform the rituals of the church, but life as usual, and maintain that, "...I am a good Catholic..." Catholic cousins, Norb and Jack always went to Xmas midnight mass together, and bragged how many years they had done that. The relevant note is that they were always very drunk when they did it, and bragged about it. They were "good Catholics' however.