Wtc 7

[KeepOurFreedoms]

I've yet to see any of you conspiracy theorists incorporate pressure into your equations. Palerider has been asking you to do this for weeks, what's the problem? Stop dodging.

I'm a Truth Seeker.........not a conspiracy theorist.

How about you; do you want to know the truth?

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

Tell me exactly why 3 buildings could not "freefall" (stupid term) into their own footprint within hours. Two of the buildings were identical and suffered nearly identical damage. I would be more surprised if they didn't behave the same. The third building caught fire. The vast majority of buidings that catch fire and continue burning fall in upon themselves. What sort of point are you trying to make?

I am waiting for you to show that the heat + the pressure was not enough to make the metal malleable. When you do that, you have me. Physics is physics. A credible report that shows that there was not enough heat and pressure to cause the metal to fail is all you need. Without it, the glare from your tinfoil hat hurts my eyes.

Free fall is an excellent term for what happened to the 3 towers. Not enough damage was done to towers 1 & 2 to make them fall.....in any manner. There was no major fire in building 7. The little fire that was there was almost out when it "fell".

I do believe anything I would show you as a credible report, you would deny.

FYI - You can't see any tin foil hats for the sand in your eyes.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I'm a Truth Seeker.........not a conspiracy theorist.

So that's what you all are referring to yourselves as these days?

How about you; do you want to know the truth?

I believe I do know the truth.

 

[palerider]

Free fall is an excellent term for what happened to the 3 towers. Not enough damage was done to towers 1 & 2 to make them fall.....in any manner. There was no major fire in building 7. The little fire that was there was almost out when it "fell".

A passenger airliner flew through the center of the building. By what leap of logic do you determine that there wasn't enough damage done to make them fall?

And the fire was almost out because the available fuel was almost consumed, therefore there was no structure left to support the building.

I do believe anything I would show you as a credible report, you would deny.

I told you what constitutes a credible report. A valid scientific report detailing that the pressure that remained on the supporting beams, plus the heat from the fire and burning aluminum from the fire (buring aluminum greatly enhances a fire's temperature by the way) was not enough to cause the metal to fail. That would constitute a valid report and would be very tough to argue against.

FYI - You can't see any tin foil hats for the sand in your eyes.

I am not the one who believes in fairy tales. I am one who deals in facts. Show me facts or show yourself out the door. If you don't have facts, you don't have anything at all.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

So that's what you all are referring to yourselves as these days?



I believe I do know the truth.

I thought I did too. Keep reading and learning.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

A passenger airliner flew through the center of the building. By what leap of logic do you determine that there wasn't enough damage done to make them fall? You need to study the building structure more.
And the fire was almost out because the available fuel was almost consumed, therefore there was no structure left to support the building. Wrong. The fuel was a fire ball.


I told you what constitutes a credible report. A valid scientific report detailing that the pressure that remained on the supporting beams, plus the heat from the fire and burning aluminum from the fire (buring aluminum greatly enhances a fire's temperature by the way) was not enough to cause the metal to fail. That would constitute a valid report and would be very tough to argue against.



I am not the one who believes in fairy tales. I am one who deals in facts. Show me facts or show yourself out the door. If you don't have facts, you don't have anything at all.

Fairy tales? You really are confused. You don't believe the facts that anyone else shows but you. You are in tunnel vision.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

He's said that he would be willing to consider your theory if you grounded it in science. He needs to see pressure incorporated into the equation.

 

[palerider]

Fairy tales? You really are confused. You don't believe the facts that anyone else shows but you. You are in tunnel vision.

I told you what constitutes a valid scientific examination. Unless you can demonstrate that the pressure plus the temperature was not enough to cause the metal to fail, you do not have a case. Without those elements, you are just pusing smoke and mirrors.

It isn't as if I were asking for the moon or something, if there is any validity to your claim it will be found in the physics of heat and pressure.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

I told you what constitutes a valid scientific examination. Unless you can demonstrate that the pressure plus the temperature was not enough to cause the metal to fail, you do not have a case. Without those elements, you are just pusing smoke and mirrors.

It isn't as if I were asking for the moon or something, if there is any validity to your claim it will be found in the physics of heat and pressure.

You have yet to prove that it was hot enough. The fire didn't last long enough for any "real" heat.



How come we can't post pictures here?????

 

[vyo476]

This is shaping up to be the most circular argument on the forum, and that's saying something.

The only way to really move forward is for someone, anyone, to address this pressure issue.

 

[KeepOurFreedoms]

This is shaping up to be the most circular argument on the forum, and that's saying something.

The only way to really move forward is for someone, anyone, to address this pressure issue.

What pressure? There was a HUGE gaping hole in each tower.

911 Top 500 Questions
New - Updated
From Nico Haupt
nicohaupt@yahoo.com
http://www.ourDNA.org
5-8-2


911 - THE BASIC QUESTIONS

1. Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they
had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial, citing an
unidentified "threat" in July 2001?
3. Why were there no photos or videos of the Pentagon
plane?
4. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of
the classroom?
5. Where was George H. W. Bush at the time of the
attacks?
6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the
flights all use the term boxcutters?
7. Where are the flight recorders?
8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?
9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live
camera?
10 Why was security meeting scheduled for
9/11cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?
11. How did they come up with the "culprits" so
quickly?
12. How did they find the terrorist's cars at the
airports so quickly?
13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?
14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?
15. Why was no plane seen at the Pentagon?
16. How extensive was the relationship between the
Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?
17. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at
UNOCAL?
18. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline
from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?
19. When was the decision made to send the FEMA to New
York?
20. Why did FEMA spokesman Tom Kenney tell Dan Rather
he was in New York on Sept. 10?
21. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to
investigate Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington?
22. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist
connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?
23. Who made the decision to have John O'Neill stop
investigating Al-qeada accounts?
24. Who gave the decision to give him a security job
at the World Trade Center?
25. Did John O'Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the
night of September 10th?
26. What about media reports that hijackers bought
tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?
27. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appeared on the
passenger lists?
28. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink
alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?
29. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow
drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?
30. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call
relatives?
31. How did the hijackers change the flight plan
without law enforcement or the military try to stop
them?
32. Which hijacker's passport was found in the WTC
rubble? Who found it and what time?
33. How could the FBI distinguish between "regular"
Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?
34. Why was there not one "innocent" Muslim on board
any of these flights?
35. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking
for Muslim names and label them as hijackers?

MOHAMMED ATTA

36. Did the Florida police provide information that
Atta was searched because of 1)an expired Visa, 2)
driving a car without a license, 3) because of an
incident at Miami Airport?
37. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the
employees didn't put it on board?
38. Who found his bag? How can we be sure it it was
his bag?
39. Why did Atta place a video "how to fly planes", a
uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that
he would commit suicide?
40. Why did Atta leave his drivers license in a rental
car?
41. When did Atta train on a flight simulator?
42. Did Atta leave the US while in training and then
return?
43. Why did Atta decide to study at Opa Locka, a
famous hub of 6 Navy training bases and includes
government partners like U.S. Coast Guard Air Station,
Police (Miami-Dade) Aviation Unit?
44. Why was Atta allowed to study since he was stopped
by the police for driving without a license and also
for violating his visa?

THE BLACK BOXES AND CRASH VIDEO

45. Why were the Black Boxes never recovered ?
46. Why didn't the FBI release the air traffic
controller's protocols?
47. Why did the FBI not release the Flight Data
Recorder info?
48. Who video-recorded the first plane hitting the
tower? Why did he disappear from the media?

THE HIJACKERS

49. How did the FBI receive a tip from a passenger who
boarded a different plane and reached his destination
safely that he had a confrontation with two ME men at
the Logan airport in Boston?
50. Who tipped the FBI to storm the Westin Hotel in
Boston on September 12th?
51. Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come
from?
52. How were all hijackers identified just 2 days
after the attack?
53. Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger
list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?
54. Why do none of the names appear on the passenger
lists UA and AA gave to CNN?
55. How could the hijackers disable the defense
systems?
56. Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden's family, who
left the United States without further investigation
57. What about the supposed hijackers who are still
alive?
58. Was there a reason to change the list of the
original 19 hijackers?
59. What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed
Azmath, who have been in jail since
September 2001, because of possession of box cutters
on a train?Who gave the tip to arrest them?
60. Why did it take 4 months before Ramsi Binalschibhs
name was mentioned, since he was a good friend of
Mohammad Atta and lived in his apartment in Hamburg?
61. Why did it take 4 months until December 11 to
charge Zacarias Moussaoui for the 9/11 attacks when
his case was known worldwide for months, but not
mentioned in the American media?
62. Whatever happened with Lotfi Raissi, who was
arrested in UK for teaching the terrorist pilots?
63. What is the current status of the investigation of
Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export-Company in Hamburg and
Al Taqwa Management Organisation in Lugano?
64. Why was Richard Reid able to enter the Paris
airport twice and who paid for his hotel?
65. Who hired Zacarias Masspoui to learn how to fly
passenger jets in the United States?
66. Why did the FBI or CIA fail to interrogate him
between August and December 2001?

BIN LADEN

67. Did the CIA monitor Bin Laden in 1998 with the
help of 15 Afghan agents, paid $1,000/ month?
68. Where are these agents? Was Johnny "Mike" Spann
one? Was John Walker Lindh one?
69. Is an Afghan agent a member of the ISI? Is an
Afghan agent working for Bin Laden?
70. When was the first time Tenet mentioned the
Al-Quaeda group to any member of the Senate?
71. Why did the Pentagon release a new video version
or translation of the Bin Laden Home video?
72. Why it was released only 8 hours after translation
by the German magazine MONITOR on December ?
73. Why were the four translators prior US-Government
workers?
74. When was the Bin Laden Home Video found and who
found it?
75. Who found the video if Northern Alliance and US
troops had not yet arrived in Kandahar or Jahalabad?
76. Does the timestamp on the Bin Laden video indicate
that it was found two weeks after it was produced?
77. Why was the public not informed who found the
video and when?
78. Why according to MONITOR magazine, were the most
controversial statements translated incorrectly?
79. Why was the video released?
80. Who gave the final decision to release it?
81. Why is the Bin Laden video of June 2001 in which
he praised the attack, available on the Internet?
82. What about Bin Laden's statements on Al-Jazeera in
June 2001 about the bombing of USS Cole, which are
similar to the statements on the November 2001 home
video?
83. Why did Bin Laden state in Umman Magazine in Sept.
2001, that he was not involved in the WTC?
84. Is Bin Laden still on the payroll of the CIA or
ISI?
85. Did the Bin Laden Group Inc. help build ToraBora
with the CIA?
86. What was the purpose of the meeting with General
Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?
87. Why was a statement released that Al-Khalifa bin
Laden, who is not the mother of Bin Laden, had a
telephone call with Bin Laden on September 9, rather
than Alia Ghanem, his mother? Why did Alia Ghanem say
she did not believe he planned the attack? ...........................


http://www.rense.com/general24/t500.htm

 

[palerider]

Maybe you don't understand the concept of pressure. If I take a piece of steel girder like the support columns in the towers and stand it up and build a fire of equal heat and duration around it, it may or may not distort. We know that the fire from fuel and the building and office materials as a result of the crash were not sufficient to cause the steel to fail. I have not seen any of the consipiracies deal with the fact that burning aluminum greatly increases the temprature of any fire, but that is for later.

OK. I have this piece of steel girder standing up and know that the heat I can produce isn't going to cause it to fail. BUT. What if I put a load on it. If I put my girder between a concrete foundation and a hydraulic press and simulate the weight of the upper floors that it was designed to support and add additional weight that it must bear because its fellow supports were destroyed in the crash, it is going to take less heat and a shorter duration to fatigue the metal and cause it to fail.

Demonstrate to me that the heat and the nominal load on the beams plus the additional load placed on them by the failure of other supports taken out due to the crash were not enough to cause the remaining beams to fail and you have an argument. In your search for this data, be sure that the fact of burning aluminum is also factored in.

Aluminum ignites fairly easily and we have seen it burn freely in other airline crashes. Aluminum, once ignited burns at a temperature of over 5000 degrees. That is about 2/3 the temperature of the surface of the sun while steel begins to deform at temperatures of less than 1500 degrees.

Prove to me that there was not enough heat and pressure to cause the beams to fail.

 

[dahermit]

Aluminum/magnesium?

...Aluminum ignites fairly easily and we have seen it burn freely in other airline crashes. Aluminum, once ignited burns at a temperature of over 5000 degrees. That is about 2/3 the temperature of the surface of the sun while steel begins to deform at temperatures of less than 1500 degrees.

I think that you have confused Magnesium with Aluminum. They are similar in appearance, both very light weight. But, Magnesium burns with an intense bright light, whereas Aluminum just melts. Powdered Magnesium is used in "Thermite" bombs and "flash powder." Did you misspeak?

 

[political mutt]

It will always be a circular argument with palerider.
He of course on the outward appearance, claims to be the master of all information. He SEEMS, to know everything about everything. He is just very, very clever, at using words that confuse most laymen. That is how he gains his percieved edge at all times. just as here, where he is demanding physics, and highly complicated mathematical equation, from average every day citizens, who post on the internet


This is a safe tact on his part, as 98% of the people here would largely be unable to provide the data he keeps screaming about. Never mind the fact that Even the NIST, and FEMA, dont have those equations, and data he seeks either.....he skims right over that part of it all

I am asking you Mr palerider................how many years do you have working with Air Frames? and How many years working with Powerplants? And aviation jet fuel? Its obvious by your responses, that you have either little, or absolutely NO experience, in these areas. Your expertise lies in the written word,there is absolutely NO-WAY that an aluminum and aluminum substrate airframe was able to "Slice" through the center of the wtc towers PERIOD

If these airframes cannot withstand 150 mph winds and a stand of pine trees without shredding into pieces of aluminum cladding and hundreds of feet of wire and hoses

there is NO physical possibility that they would have sliced through the central support columns of the WTC. you obviously do not understand the importance of the Central parts of these buildings ....you do however understand how to write in circles as has been pointed out this is generally how ALL of you dealings with people here end up

the insults will start soon they always do

this is why ALL conversations will end this way with the palerider it is what he does best talk people in circles by talking above them I would surely like to see your documented proof in which airframes burned freely as you suggest.......you may have experienced some melting but not any fire

seems to me you have skimmed the defenition of thermite and confused its properties with aluminum and aluminum substrates at one time for about 2 years after 9-11 you could go to boeings site and see just what the plane was constructed of and how it was constructed those documents no longer exist

Dahermit is correct Magnesium will burn easily and USED to be used in sub frame assemblies in aircraft due to the rigidty of the material th highly flammable nature was what caused them to remove magnesium from all commercial airframes it is only found now in military aircraft

 

[palerider]

I think that you have confused Magnesium with Aluminum. They are similar in appearance, both very light weight. But, Magnesium burns with an intense bright light, whereas Aluminum just melts. Powdered Magnesium is used in "Thermite" bombs and "flash powder." Did you misspeak?

No. If I had ment to say magnesium, I would have said magnesium and noted a temperature of about 2900 degrees. Aluminum burns quite easily at the temperatures associated with airline crashes. Ample evidence of this has been seen in previous crashes.