Why not a national sales tax instead?

[pocketfullofshells]

OK im sold on that idea, taxing services equally to goods would lower the percent the gov would need per item

I still don't like the double taxing idea on used cars and used houses. But no one gets everything they want.

OK do you think it could work if all goods and services were taxed but now at a lower rate like 10 or 15 percent?

see this is why we can debate...unlike some on here who just rant...but I am not allowed to say names....

you could have 10-15%...unless you want a military, and roads, and schools..and all that..15% would be far lower then what we pay in now just out of our paychecks...not counting sales taxes from the state and other taxes...the normal rate talked about is again about 30%...you want to make it 15% or 10% you need to cut the budget by 50% or more then...now do you really think thats ever going to happen? its not..so give up the pipe dream...you want a sales tax its about 30% if you want it to have a shot at passing any stage.

And you still have can't deal with the issue of...how do you budget a year based on sales...if a major econ or natural event happen and sales drop off by 30%...do you just at the drop of a hat cut spending 30%? the bridge you contracted to build..just tear up the contract and say sorry can't do it now and leave the construction company out to dry...Fire about bunch of workers you needed...and just hope next year if people buy more you can hire them back? go close some schools and tell them sorry tell your parents to start spending? fire half the military for budget cuts, but just hope to train more people fast when the econ kicks back? Cut help to the poor...who need it the most right now when the econ is even worse?

Because I assume you are not going to say run a debt right? so year to year, no debt and just hope nothing unexpected ever shows up...like wall street crashing....

 

[Pandora]

see this is why we can debate...unlike some on here who just rant...but I am not allowed to say names....

you could have 10-15%...unless you want a military, and roads, and schools..and all that..15% would be far lower then what we pay in now just out of our paychecks...not counting sales taxes from the state and other taxes...the normal rate talked about is again about 30%...you want to make it 15% or 10% you need to cut the budget by 50% or more then...now do you really think thats ever going to happen? its not..so give up the pipe dream...you want a sales tax its about 30% if you want it to have a shot at passing any stage.

And you still have can't deal with the issue of...how do you budget a year based on sales...if a major econ or natural event happen and sales drop off by 30%...do you just at the drop of a hat cut spending 30%? the bridge you contracted to build..just tear up the contract and say sorry can't do it now and leave the construction company out to dry...Fire about bunch of workers you needed...and just hope next year if people buy more you can hire them back? go close some schools and tell them sorry tell your parents to start spending? fire half the military for budget cuts, but just hope to train more people fast when the econ kicks back? Cut help to the poor...who need it the most right now when the econ is even worse?

Because I assume you are not going to say run a debt right? so year to year, no debt and just hope nothing unexpected ever shows up...like wall street crashing....

No, I wouldn't want to run a debt. Any change in our tax system has to include some cuts. I am perfectly fine if states want to pick up those programs, those states taxes would be higher so they could fund the programs though

I think if we didn't have to pay federal taxes we could probably afford 15 percent. I think it would generate more than we are already paying the feds because there are a lot of very wealthily people out there who buy expensive items and take expensive trips and like you said they don't currently pay an adequate rate in taxes, they would with this plan. and all the illegals, prostitutes, drug dealers and thieves who don't currently pay into taxes would be added to the group.

I would want it to be written in the plan that if they over generate revenue they can only do it till they have a fixed number that goes IN A LOCK BOX!! then after that they have to lower the rate of taxes and not come up with new things to spend it on or invent new programs.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

No, I wouldn't want to run a debt. Any change in our tax system has to include some cuts. I am perfectly fine if states want to pick up those programs, those states taxes would be higher so they could fund the programs though

I think if we didn't have to pay federal taxes we could probably afford 15 percent. I think it would generate more than we are already paying the feds because there are a lot of very wealthily people out there who buy expensive items and take expensive trips and like you said they don't currently pay an adequate rate in taxes, they would with this plan. and all the illegals, prostitutes, drug dealers and thieves who don't currently pay into taxes would be added to the group.

I would want it to be written in the plan that if they over generate revenue they can only do it till they have a fixed number that goes IN A LOCK BOX!! then after that they have to lower the rate of taxes and not come up with new things to spend it on or invent new programs.

actually your setting up a huge crime ring...secret no tax stores...your not taxing drug dealers more..your giving them a new easy business. I can see a big black market forming..for just about anything..( also by taxing drug dealers this way, your actually making it harder for the police to bust them...just recall what they got Capone for...it was not the murders, the theft, or bootlegging...it was tax evasion. ) I make a product..it cost 1000...with tax its not 1150 ( really 1300 useing real "fair tax" numbers....It cost me 800 to make...I can sell it at real values and make 200 bucks...or I can sell it under the table for 1200 and make 400 and the cust saves 100 as well...who is going to know?

Buy passing the buck to the states...your not changing the cost...your changing who you pay it to...Now the state just has to jack up its sales tax and or income tax...

Also think about this...your 65...you have paid income taxes all your life...all where taxes...you retire...and now your system gets put into place.. all your income that you saved after taxes...is now worth half as much as the sales tax takes it from you again. Now that you are retired...and paid your taxes on earnings...you get to pay the same taxes again...in the form of really high sales tax.

Cost of a car...its a 20,000 car...tax rate makes it even if you did your 15% ( something you can't do because in the real world you can't cut the budget 50% ...I know in the tea party land you can...but not in the real world)...but now the cost of evry single part...costs more now. You are taxed 15% when you buy the rubber...your taxed 15 when you buy the resin, your taxed 15% on the metal in the tire..your taxed when you by the metal for the engine your taxes when you buy the spark plugs, your taxes when you by the seats, your taxed when you buy the speakers, the gps, the glass....

 

[ProudLefty]

A Value added Tax, as is done in some countries solves your last issue. When you buy something for a $100 and add value to it and then sell it for $200, you collect the full tax from the buyer, but you can deduct the tax you paid on the $100 of matrials you bought. So, in the end you only pay the tax on the value you add.

One problem with that is that you pay the tax on what you buy. If you end up never being able to sell it, you never get your money back. Also, you are forever out of pocket on the tax you paid on your inventory,

In the end, our system is the unfairest there is, excepting all of the other systems.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

A Value added Tax, as is done in some countries solves your last issue. When you buy something for a $100 and add value to it and then sell it for $200, you collect the full tax from the buyer, but you can deduct the tax you paid on the $100 of matrials you bought. So, in the end you only pay the tax on the value you add.

One problem with that is that you pay the tax on what you buy. If you end up never being able to sell it, you never get your money back. Also, you are forever out of pocket on the tax you paid on your inventory,

In the end, our system is the unfairest there is, excepting all of the other systems.

well we know our system can be made alot more fair...a progressive income tax, with less deductions would be the most fair..we could even lower some rates if we drop the deductions. then I think we have the most fair system...aka the one we had years ago before big business and the wealthy bought the tax code.

 

[ProudLefty]

well we know our system can be made alot more fair...a progressive income tax, with less deductions would be the most fair..we could even lower some rates if we drop the deductions. then I think we have the most fair system...aka the one we had years ago before big business and the wealthy bought the tax code.

That part I am inclined to agree with. I do keep remembering though that one person's pork is another person's fervent belief.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

That part I am inclined to agree with. I do keep remembering though that one person's pork is another person's fervent belief.

also one idiots pork sometimes could save millions of lives or saves millions of dollars...recall Palin crying about pork...and spending on Fruit fly research...of course it was not about fruit flys them self but part of the human Genome project...and some wasteful spending on volcanoes...cost like 100,000 bucks or less...and saved millions and millions in Military hardware when they knew to move stuff off a military base they where matching...weeks before it erupted and would have damaged everything...But the key is, it sounded nice in a debate to the public...who had no idea what the details where...its all about the soundbite

 

[ProudLefty]

also one idiots pork sometimes could save millions of lives or saves millions of dollars...recall Palin crying about pork...and spending on Fruit fly research...of course it was not about fruit flys them self but part of the human Genome project...and some wasteful spending on volcanoes...cost like 100,000 bucks or less...and saved millions and millions in Military hardware when they knew to move stuff off a military base they where matching...weeks before it erupted and would have damaged everything...But the key is, it sounded nice in a debate to the public...who had no idea what the details where...its all about the soundbite

Exactly. Lets repair a bridge for a million instead of waiting for it to fall down, kill people, and cost 25 million to replace. Lets fix our 40-year old schools while people are hungry for work and before the structures deteriorate to the point of being salvageable.

We have lots of good choices and only one bad choice. Lets not make the bad choice.

 

[Pandora]

actually your setting up a huge crime ring...secret no tax stores...your not taxing drug dealers more..your giving them a new easy business. I can see a big black market forming..for just about anything..( also by taxing drug dealers this way, your actually making it harder for the police to bust them...just recall what they got Capone for...it was not the murders, the theft, or bootlegging...it was tax evasion. ) I make a product..it cost 1000...with tax its not 1150 ( really 1300 useing real "fair tax" numbers....It cost me 800 to make...I can sell it at real values and make 200 bucks...or I can sell it under the table for 1200 and make 400 and the cust saves 100 as well...who is going to know?

Black market stuff happens now even with IRS taxes, there will probably always be black market or under the table transactions. Most drug dealers
get busted for drugs not tax evasion though that has happened in the past. The movie Blow Was based on a true story of a guy who went down that way.

passing the buck to the states...your not changing the cost...your changing who you pay it to...Now the state just has to jack up its sales tax and or income tax...

Well, passing the buck for two reasons. First, it gives states a say in what happens to them and second it gives states the chance to opt out of stuff. Some states will want everything and a candy bar too, other states will want the basics. So they at least have a choice on what they are paying for.

think about this...your 65...you have paid income taxes all your life...all where taxes...you retire...and now your system gets put into place.. all your income that you saved after taxes...is now worth half as much as the sales tax takes it from you again. Now that you are retired...and paid your taxes on earnings...you get to pay the same taxes again...in the form of really high sales tax.

Ok this really bothers me. I read this post before I went to work this morning and it was this paragraph that depressed me all day. I don't know if there is an answer except maybe a card that could be given to seniors exempting them from taxes or taxing them at a lower rate. but It would be for todays senior who earned their retirement under the old program.

of a car...its a 20,000 car...tax rate makes it even if you did your 15% ( something you can't do because in the real world you can't cut the budget 50% ...I know in the tea party land you can...but not in the real world)...but now the cost of evry single part...costs more now. You are taxed 15% when you buy the rubber...your taxed 15 when you buy the resin, your taxed 15% on the metal in the tire..your taxed when you by the metal for the engine your taxes when you buy the spark plugs, your taxes when you by the seats, your taxed when you buy the speakers, the gps, the glass....

The 20k car would be reduced in price because all the people who made the car cost less to the car maker since the car maker didn't have to pay payroll tax exc. for them. But I do see the dilemma you have presented.

Their must be some system that works. The current system is horrible, flat tax is less horrible but still not good and there are problems with this idea too.

 

[ProudLefty]

All of these discussions end up with the same conclusions: Yeah, what we have is horrible, but every improvement we imagine is worse.

Lets try to get the small changes, the incremental fixes that work, are stay away from the destructive. Lets improve our lives.

Lets start from where we are, and not try to create some new starting point that we really don't fully understand.

We have a system that made us the strongest nation in the history of the World. Have we forgotten that just ten years ago we were on top of the World? Lets go back to those times and those policies, instead of futzing around with a program that in its first 8 years cost America 5 million jobs.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Black market stuff happens now even with IRS taxes, there will probably always be black market or under the table transactions. Most drug dealers
get busted for drugs not tax evasion though that has happened in the past. The movie Blow Was based on a true story of a guy who went down that way.





Well, passing the buck for two reasons. First, it gives states a say in what happens to them and second it gives states the chance to opt out of stuff. Some states will want everything and a candy bar too, other states will want the basics. So they at least have a choice on what they are paying for.




Ok this really bothers me. I read this post before I went to work this morning and it was this paragraph that depressed me all day. I don't know if there is an answer except maybe a card that could be given to seniors exempting them from taxes or taxing them at a lower rate. but It would be for todays senior who earned their retirement under the old program.




The 20k car would be reduced in price because all the people who made the car cost less to the car maker since the car maker didn't have to pay payroll tax exc. for them. But I do see the dilemma you have presented.

Their must be some system that works. The current system is horrible, flat tax is less horrible but still not good and there are problems with this idea too.

much easier idea is...close the loopholes...start there...
but seems like you are seeing that the sales tax idea is pretty flawed.

 

[Pandora]

much easier idea is...close the loopholes...start there...
but seems like you are seeing that the sales tax idea is pretty flawed.

Yeah I guess it is.

If I had my way I would still change it, out of all the tax ideas, the current one we use is the worst and the least fair and also the most complicated and expensive.

 

[Pandora]

All of these discussions end up with the same conclusions: Yeah, what we have is horrible, but every improvement we imagine is worse.

Lets try to get the small changes, the incremental fixes that work, are stay away from the destructive. Lets improve our lives.

Lets start from where we are, and not try to create some new starting point that we really don't fully understand.

We have a system that made us the strongest nation in the history of the World. Have we forgotten that just ten years ago we were on top of the World? Lets go back to those times and those policies, instead of futzing around with a program that in its first 8 years cost America 5 million jobs.

What program cost 5 mil jobs in 8 years? and if you were going to fix irs where would you start?

 

[Pandora]

What is wrong with the current tax system:

1. Class warfair, meaning Some don't just not pay, they get a check via earned income credit, some pay zero some pay 15 percent some more. Class envy is just sub-human to me

• There are too many loop holes and too many "special" credits if you buy what the government wants you to buy

• It costs so much money to do your taxes, it is far too complcated even to the point that the law makers who create the laws cant do their taxes correctly, IE Charlie Rangle. It needs to be more simplified.

If just those things could be fixed/changed I would personally stop complaining about the current tax system.

Probably there is more I don't like about it but this is what came to me for now.


GRRRR! it made everything 1 when I typed 2 and 3 Please ignore that part

 

[PLC1]

What is wrong with the current tax system:

1. Class warfair, meaning Some don't just not pay, they get a check via earned income credit, some pay zero some pay 15 percent some more. Class envy is just sub-human to me

• There are too many loop holes and too many "special" credits if you buy what the government wants you to buy

• It costs so much money to do your taxes, it is far too complcated even to the point that the law makers who create the laws cant do their taxes correctly, IE Charlie Rangle. It needs to be more simplified.

If just those things could be fixed/changed I would personally stop complaining about the current tax system.

Probably there is more I don't like about it but this is what came to me for now.


GRRRR! it made everything 1 when I typed 2 and 3 Please ignore that part

"Class warfare" is a buzzword used by anyone who doesn't want to see real tax reform.

Yes, a lot needs to be fixed and changed. The problem is, the lobbyists exist to make sure that any tax advantage that their employers might have continues, regardless of whether it is fair or not.

Everyone should pay at least a token, so as to have some "skin in the game" as they say. Nothing is free, and nothing should be seen as being free.

However, when the lowest 50% on the economic ladder control 2.5% of the wealth, we aren't going to balance the budget by increasing taxes on that 50%.

And when Warren Buffet points out that his cleaning lady pays a higher percentage than he does, the response needs to be a more balanced tax code, not "Class warfare! Class warfare! The liberals are waging class warfare!"

But, that would be logical, and logic has no place in partisan politics.