Why not a national sales tax instead?

[Pandora]

My heart goes out to anyone who is addicted to drugs, legal or illegal. And to their families, as well. Bad stuff, and no one yet has the answer. Of course if we defunded a couple of military programs we could fund decent research into handling addictions, plus provide the facilities and staff to make it work. But instead we build fighters that no one wants, and build spare engines for them that will never be uncrated.

One of the things the Feds have done through the decades, with great success, is in line with your goals, and could easily be expanded to deal with other problems. You speak of the states competing... you will be pleased to learn that already is happening. The highway program is an excellent example. There are federally funded pilot projects, experiments, and research going on in State Transportation Departments and state colleges all over the US. Some succeed, some fail, but the best ides are expanded and eventually adopted nation wide. Those yellow barrels we see in front of every bridge abutment are there because of years of experiments around the nation to find ways to lower highway deaths.

The feds are really quite good at funding and monitoring the results of all kinds of competing ideas at the state's level.

If there were no free methadone program, she would not have gotten addicted to heroin. The federal government should not be giving out free methadone or any other drugs free for anyone who stands in line.

The highway program should be interesting. We here in Oregon will be screwed because all our road money goes to bike and jogging paths, skate parks and if they can worm their way around it the government here wants light rail even if every citizen is against it. but this is good because we can be the example of who not to vote for when everything goes to hell in a hand basket

 

[PLC1]

I have posted in the past for a national sales tax. We would not tax food, meds and med services. Take the budget and adjust the tax to that automatically. The poor will no longer buy what they cannot afford and the rich will pay more for what they want, automatic means testing. Special taxes for financial transactions and other "money-making-money" deals that produce no products other than perpetual wealth.

If you eliminate the tax on those things, then the tax on other things will have to be increased. Currently, the feds are getting around 17% of the GDP, and spending maybe 25% or so. Even if spending were cut to match income before changing the tax code, the sales tax on everything not exempt would have to go up to what? Maybe 30, or40%?

What about real estate? Would we tax all real estate sales? Only the sales of new houses? Only non commercial? It seems to me that there are a lot of unanswered questions, and would be a lot of unforeseen consequences to going to the fair tax.

 

[ProudLefty]

If there were no free methadone program, she would not have gotten addicted to heroin. The federal government should not be giving out free methadone or any other drugs free for anyone who stands in line.

The highway program should be interesting. We here in Oregon will be screwed because all our road money goes to bike and jogging paths, skate parks and if they can worm their way around it the government here wants light rail even if every citizen is against it. but this is good because we can be the example of who not to vote for when everything goes to hell in a hand basket

Orgon!?! You speak as if Oregon is full of Right Wingers, when the fact remains that Oregon has a rich tradition of being about as progressive as progressive gets in America. Even Republican Mark Hatfield stood to the left of most Democrats.

 

[Pandora]

Orgon!?! You speak as if Oregon is full of Right Wingers, when the fact remains that Oregon has a rich tradition of being about as progressive as progressive gets in America. Even Republican Mark Hatfield stood to the left of most Democrats.

I speak of Oregon as right wing? huh?
I live in the peoples republic of Eugene, just south of Baghdad on the Willamette they. What did I say to make it sound conservative to you?

 

[PLC1]

I speak of Oregon as right wing? huh?
I live in the peoples republic of Eugene, just south of Baghdad on the Willamette they. What did I say to make it sound conservative to you?

I just drove across Oregon, mostly because it sits between California, where I live, and Washington, where my grandkids live. Now, if someone would move it, that would save me some driving time.

Still, it looks pretty good to me, with its tall forests and clear rivers. I had no idea its government could be compared to that of Saddam Hussain, or that the residents dabbled in Communism. Go figure.

 

[Pandora]

I just drove across Oregon, mostly because it sits between California, where I live, and Washington, where my grandkids live. Now, if someone would move it, that would save me some driving time.

Still, it looks pretty good to me, with its tall forests and clear rivers. I had no idea its government could be compared to that of Saddam Hussain, or that the residents dabbled in Communism. Go figure.

Yes, Oregon is probably the most beautiful of all the 57 states. It would be very hard to leave here because of its beauty, and more than that. I am 45 min from the ocean one direction. 1 hours from the high desert in another direction and within 30 min I can be deep enough in a forest that I wouldn't see any signs of people.

But it has its flaws too.

Did you happen to get gas while you were here? Sometimes its funny to see people from any of the other states try to pump their gas, The attendant runs out and stops you then get gas all over your paint job after they pump it for you. Its even more funny to see an Oregonian try to work the gas pump when they visit other states. Since we are not allowed to touch the pump, many of us have no idea how to do it. Lawmakers have suggested oregonian's can't pump their own gas because it was too dangerous. Others lawmakers have said its because its how oregonians make new jobs by forcing a gas pumper.

I think I am safe to say that Oregon and the Taliban in Afghanistan are the only two places to ban kite flying. The Taliban had their own reasons, for us it was banned on the beach they thought (environmentalist wackos and the government) people and kites on the beach was harming the snowy plover bird. They attempted to ban all beach access to the beach access in one very large area from March - September (the only season people actually go to the beach) But with much outcry and tons of lawsuits, they did allow you to walk on the beach, no kite flying, no bike riding, no shoveling your sand into your little bucket to make a sand castle. But you can walk,

Later they (the environmentalist wackos who were backed by the government) were proven wrong and the bird is not endangered its on lots of beaches here in Oregon and even California and Washington. So after a lot of fighting of people who own a business near and on the beach hiring attorney's and investigators to help them not lose their business and livelihood they won the right to keep their piece of the American Pie.

Here in Eugene we have voted twice to build a parkway because its getting so congested on the main streets, twice our Mayor who loves GREEN Jobs only has refused to let us have the parkway because she doesn't think its good for the environment. But she has this great idea to take a large chunk of all the business's property to make a special bus lane. It will only take some land from every business on west 11th, and force some of them to close. but it's so green to ride a bus instead of give people a parkway so driving isn't a hassle.

In Portland when Vira Katz was mayor, she insisted that all American Flags had to come off the fire trucks because it might offend some people to have an American Flag on the trucks. (She meant Muslim Americans, this was not long after 911) She also aided one of the Portland 7. They were a group who wanted to shoot up grade schools after they came back from the middle east. Portland also refused to work with the terrorist task force under here and the current mayor the pedophile John Adams ( who will not seek reelection).

Our State spends a large amount of the roads money on bike baths and jogging paths and then say we don't have money for roads unless we raise your already ridiculously high taxes. But they do have money for light rail.. well let me restate that, they have decided we the tax payers have enough money for light rail even though we the people have said over and over we do not want nor can we afford light rail. Its gonna go through anyway...

Speaking of ridiculously high taxes, one of the reasons is because we have our own version of obama care. Not everyone gets the free medical but many poor get it and its gotten so out of hand that there is now a waiting list. For all the money we pay for this health care, a woman in Springfield was dying of cancer and needed medicine and was on the state healthcare plan.

The states healthcare that we are all forced to pay for told her no to her medicine but that they would pay for her doctor assisted suicide.

We have lost much of or land rights and even after a state wide vote to return land rights back to the land owners the state refuses. Some places like Salem will fine you if you plant a tree or bush that is not on the OK list and if you try to cut a tree in your yard without a permission you will have the state out to give you a fine, some of these fines are very large. Eugene will too but only if they catch you I am not sure how Salem can find everyone but they sure seem to.

I could go on but either you get the point or you wont ever get the point.

 

[PLC1]

Yes, Oregon is probably the most beautiful of all the 57 states. It would be very hard to leave here because of its beauty, and more than that. I am 45 min from the ocean one direction. 1 hours from the high desert in another direction and within 30 min I can be deep enough in a forest that I wouldn't see any signs of people.

But it has its flaws too.

Did you happen to get gas while you were here? Sometimes its funny to see people from any of the other states try to pump their gas, The attendant runs out and stops you then get gas all over your paint job after they pump it for you. Its even more funny to see an Oregonian try to work the gas pump when they visit other states. Since we are not allowed to touch the pump, many of us have no idea how to do it. Lawmakers have suggested oregonian's can't pump their own gas because it was too dangerous. Others lawmakers have said its because its how oregonians make new jobs by forcing a gas pumper.

I think I am safe to say that Oregon and the Taliban in Afghanistan are the only two places to ban kite flying. The Taliban had their own reasons, for us it was banned on the beach they thought (environmentalist wackos and the government) people and kites on the beach was harming the snowy plover bird. They attempted to ban all beach access to the beach access in one very large area from March - September (the only season people actually go to the beach) But with much outcry and tons of lawsuits, they did allow you to walk on the beach, no kite flying, no bike riding, no shoveling your sand into your little bucket to make a sand castle. But you can walk,

Later they (the environmentalist wackos who were backed by the government) were proven wrong and the bird is not endangered its on lots of beaches here in Oregon and even California and Washington. So after a lot of fighting of people who own a business near and on the beach hiring attorney's and investigators to help them not lose their business and livelihood they won the right to keep their piece of the American Pie.

Here in Eugene we have voted twice to build a parkway because its getting so congested on the main streets, twice our Mayor who loves GREEN Jobs only has refused to let us have the parkway because she doesn't think its good for the environment. But she has this great idea to take a large chunk of all the business's property to make a special bus lane. It will only take some land from every business on west 11th, and force some of them to close. but it's so green to ride a bus instead of give people a parkway so driving isn't a hassle.

In Portland when Vira Katz was mayor, she insisted that all American Flags had to come off the fire trucks because it might offend some people to have an American Flag on the trucks. (She meant Muslim Americans, this was not long after 911) She also aided one of the Portland 7. They were a group who wanted to shoot up grade schools after they came back from the middle east. Portland also refused to work with the terrorist task force under here and the current mayor the pedophile John Adams ( who will not seek reelection).

Our State spends a large amount of the roads money on bike baths and jogging paths and then say we don't have money for roads unless we raise your already ridiculously high taxes. But they do have money for light rail.. well let me restate that, they have decided we the tax payers have enough money for light rail even though we the people have said over and over we do not want nor can we afford light rail. Its gonna go through anyway...

Speaking of ridiculously high taxes, one of the reasons is because we have our own version of obama care. Not everyone gets the free medical but many poor get it and its gotten so out of hand that there is now a waiting list. For all the money we pay for this health care, a woman in Springfield was dying of cancer and needed medicine and was on the state healthcare plan.

The states healthcare that we are all forced to pay for told her no to her medicine but that they would pay for her doctor assisted suicide.

We have lost much of or land rights and even after a state wide vote to return land rights back to the land owners the state refuses. Some places like Salem will fine you if you plant a tree or bush that is not on the OK list and if you try to cut a tree in your yard without a permission you will have the state out to give you a fine, some of these fines are very large. Eugene will too but only if they catch you I am not sure how Salem can find everyone but they sure seem to.

I could go on but either you get the point or you wont ever get the point.

I did stop for gas somewhere south of Roseburg. The attendant came out, took my card, pumped my gas, and washed my windows! How great is that? Shades of 1967 or so. That absolutely won't happen in California, hasn't since at least the early '70s, and yet, the gas is about the same price.

Your high taxes? In Oregon, you buy something that costs $9.99, and you pay, that's right folks, $9.99! South of your border, the same item will cost you an extra buck or so for our wonderful, bankrupt government in Sacramento.

It does sound like you may have environmentalism run amuck, though. No kite flying on the beach, LOL.

 

[Pandora]

I did stop for gas somewhere south of Roseburg. The attendant came out, took my card, pumped my gas, and washed my windows! How great is that? Shades of 1967 or so. That absolutely won't happen in California, hasn't since at least the early '70s, and yet, the gas is about the same price.

Your high taxes? In Oregon, you buy something that costs $9.99, and you pay, that's right folks, $9.99! South of your border, the same item will cost you an extra buck or so for our wonderful, bankrupt government in Sacramento.

It does sound like you may have environmentalism run amuck, though. No kite flying on the beach, LOL.

I knew you would say that about the gas... but think about it from another angle. Anyone owning a gas station is FORCED by Oregon to pay a gas attendant at least the Oregon min wage, 8.50 an hour to pump gas (9 an hour as of Jan 1st) I personally think its wrong to force a business to do that though I have no problem if a gas station wants to do it. And you were lucky about getting your windows washed, we usually have to do that ourself.

We do not have a sales tax, correct but they get you on property tax, income tax and every fee known to man. But you don't see that driving through the state.

The kite thing is sort of funny but what was not funny was some environmentalists along with government deciding that an entire area has to shut down due to a bird that they later realized was not even in danger. Those families and businesses had to pay out of pocket for attorneys and law suites and was never reimbursed by the government. Hell they never even got an "Im sorry"

Anyway's the thread is about a flat national sales tax to replace any and all other taxes, do you think its viable?

 

[PLC1]

I knew you would say that about the gas... but think about it from another angle. Anyone owning a gas station is FORCED by Oregon to pay a gas attendant at least the Oregon min wage, 8.50 an hour to pump gas (9 an hour as of Jan 1st) I personally think its wrong to force a business to do that though I have no problem if a gas station wants to do it. And you were lucky about getting your windows washed, we usually have to do that ourself.

We do not have a sales tax, correct but they get you on property tax, income tax and every fee known to man. But you don't see that driving through the state.

The kite thing is sort of funny but what was not funny was some environmentalists along with government deciding that an entire area has to shut down due to a bird that they later realized was not even in danger. Those families and businesses had to pay out of pocket for attorneys and law suites and was never reimbursed by the government. Hell they never even got an "Im sorry"

Anyway's the thread is about a flat national sales tax to replace any and all other taxes, do you think its viable?

I don't think it will ever happen. If it does, there will be a boatload of unintended consequences.

For example, if they include real estate, the housing market will take another huge hit. If they don't, then the tax on other things will have to go up. Ditto services, particularly medical services.

The real answer to out economic woes is t o raise taxes and decrease spending. Of course, that will not happen before the election, no way. After, perhaps reality will set in.

 

[ProudLefty]

...

The real answer to out economic woes is t o raise taxes and decrease spending. Of course, that will not happen before the election, no way. After, perhaps reality will set in.

No one has ever even attempted to explain why we shouldn't just return to the 1990s and use those tax rates and spending rates. Or even return to the levels of the 1980s.

Republicans go on and on about how terrible everything is... well it wasn't all that bad in 1999, was it.

 

[Pandora]

I don't think it will ever happen. If it does, there will be a boatload of unintended consequences.

For example, if they include real estate, the housing market will take another huge hit. If they don't, then the tax on other things will have to go up. Ditto services, particularly medical services.

The real answer to out economic woes is t o raise taxes and decrease spending. Of course, that will not happen before the election, no way. After, perhaps reality will set in.

No double taxing so only new home sales would be taxed.

You are probably right this would never pass but if it were possible to pass it, At what rate would the tax have to be to be sure the tax would be enough revenue?

 

[Pandora]

No one has ever even attempted to explain why we shouldn't just return to the 1990s and use those tax rates and spending rates. Or even return to the levels of the 1980s.

Republicans go on and on about how terrible everything is... well it wasn't all that bad in 1999, was it.

Well it was better then than now but it wasn't fair then anymore than it is now

I wont be happy with the tax system till its fair to all Americans and doesn't play class warfare.

 

[ProudLefty]

...

I wont be happy with the tax system till its fair to all Americans and doesn't play class warfare.

I am not sure there is any such system that would be seen as fair by all Americans. My bet is that your idea of fair is no where near my idea of fair.


My real response to you is that given that we are all in this together, and have used a flawed but accepted practice to reach the place we are at right now, then that is probably the fairest system possible.

Just to narrow down the discussion, what is your opinion on using tax policy for social purposes? For instance, we give a deduction for home mortgages because we as a nation want people to own their home instead of renting their home. That is a social decision, not a tax decision. Do you believe it is a good idea or a bad idea? Why?

 

[Pandora]

I am not sure there is any such system that would be seen as fair by all Americans. My bet is that your idea of fair is no where near my idea of fair.


My real response to you is that given that we are all in this together, and have used a flawed but accepted practice to reach the place we are at right now, then that is probably the fairest system possible.

Just to narrow down the discussion, what is your opinion on using tax policy for social purposes? For instance, we give a deduction for home mortgages because we as a nation want people to own their home instead of renting their home. That is a social decision, not a tax decision. Do you believe it is a good idea or a bad idea? Why?

I am good with writing off the interest on a home mortgage, it does help people be able to get into houses. This current president is considering ending that program. I think its a mistake but I think lots of things he does are mistakes.

I am also ok with taxing the public to support the foster care program and SSI BUT the corruption in the SSI program really needs to be fixed. Still the program is very needed, there are some people who simply cannot care for themselves by no fault of their own.

There are other programs that I am in favor of supporting. The problem for me is this. It seems to be either all or none. If I say I am in favor of 20 out of 100 programs I am still a hate monger because I did not support all the programs. But many of these programs out there are so ripe with corruption that its better to throw the baby out with the bathwater and draw more water.

I also think as many of these programs that can be state funded rather than federal funded the better. We need more local control on almost everything but not everything. Some things need to start with the feds and I am ok with that.

 

[PLC1]

No double taxing so only new home sales would be taxed.

Wouldn't that be a huge disincentive for buying new houses? What do you think would happen to the building industry if such a tax were passed?

Imagine if an existing house cost tens of thousands of dollars less than a newly built one. Who would build houses? How would they sell them at a profit?