Why is so wrong to torture terrorists POWs?

You don't torture because it's immoral & illegal.

I agree with this statement so please don't try to spin my next comment as being pro-torture.

It puts our troops at even MORE likelihood that they will be tortured or killed if captured

Do Criminals act MORE lawfully when the Cops are NOT corrupt? Statements like the one you made make zero sense to me... Terrorists are terrorists, they follow NO RULES, no matter how many rules we set for ourselves.

We shouldn't torture people but whether we do it or not WILL NOT CHANGE the fact that terrorists don't play by any rules, ever, and terrorists are NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE by their own people for violations... American's who break our rules, or the ones we agreed to internationally, are held to account by America. Terrorists won't hold other terrorists accountable for their "immoral and illegal" actions.
 
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PLC, You made the following statement in another thread but I felt it was more appropriate to respond here:

Of course, some were captured. Does that justify the anything goes philosiphy?

I am well within my rights as an American to burn the American flag, not many countries have that kind of freedom... That doesn't mean I do it. The people we captured were not entitled to any protections as they didn't meet any of the requirements, that doesn't mean we took on the philosophy of "anything goes" and ignored all common decency.

Were there abuses? Yes. Were there hearings about the abuses? Yes. Were there people held accountable for those abuses? Yes. Did our policy change due to these isolated incidents (which caused the world, and some inside the US, to now believe US torture is the rule and not the exception)? Yes. Does America get ANY credit when it does the right thing? Double hell no... not even points for trying.

There isn't a country on the face of the Earth that doesn't have at least some citizens who would turn their fellows over to an invading force for money. Do you really think that the US doesn't contain traitors, greedy people, or simply those with a thirst for revenge?

Do you really think our Military is so completely inept that they don't double and triple check, with added verification, before tossing someone into prison and paying out that reward money?

One of the "drawbacks" of being the free-est, most open society in the world is that America, her deeds, and her misdeeds are broadcast all over the world for everyone to see. Few other nations open their Congress to cameras so that the world can watch legislative debates about things like prisoner treatment and even fewer allow their Congressional Military Commission hearings to be broadcast. America even sends its free press into the warzone embedded with our soldiers and that same free press burns them anytime theres any hint of a scandal...

We do those things because we are an open and free society but it only makes the people who hate us feel that much more justified to watch us under such a microscope and so far removed from the bigger picture. They only look deep enough to see our extreme examples and thats what we're judged by, extremes.

PLC... You and I can talk about shortcomings in our policy and posit on ways that it could be improved upon but I'm afraid those on the outside looking in don't understand what you and I both know - Were talking about exceptions to the rule and all they see are these extreme examples. So when you suggest that we as Americans don't care about the plight of innocent detainees and routinely mistreat them, that just adds fuel for the people outside this country who are drooling for an excuse to hate us some more.

Those people don't see, and could care less about, any of our positive efforts: they don't notice that one guy cares enough about people he doesn't know to use an Avatar bearing the names of innocent victims. They don't hear about those of us who wrote and called their politicians asking them to stop playing politics with the war and come together to create solutions. All they know is what they see on TV and read about on the internet or papers, and none of its good.

My apologies if you didn't want to be dragged back in here but it makes for a far more interesting conversational partner than some I've had lately. :)
 
You and I can talk about shortcomings in our policy and posit on ways that it could be improved upon but I'm afraid those on the outside looking in don't understand what you and I both know - Were talking about exceptions to the rule and all they see are these extreme examples. So when you suggest that we as Americans don't care about the plight of innocent detainees and routinely mistreat them, that just adds fuel for the people outside this country who are drooling for an excuse to hate us some more.

I agree with you it is not easy especially when the good work that is being done goes largely unreported. Good news does not sell

One of the roads that has got us to this situation is IMHO our relation with the media and their reporting of events and the spin or interpretations that they apply. FOr example you mentioned eariler in your post the use of embedded journalists, personally I'm vehemently against this practise as troops and their actions are not news stories what happens in a firefight or an action against an ememy is for that unit and that unit alone. It may look good on TV to an armchair audience but can easily lead to mis-interpretation and condemnation by those who do not understand what they are looking at or to those that would seek an alternative interpretation for their own nefarious ends. It is easy to pervert a sequence of events into something totally different in an air conditioned editing suite.

This relationship with the media and the image projected by it to the outside world can be a double edged sword. IMHO one of the sources of negative image projection of the US is the US media itself and the poor quality of the mainstream consumer journalism. It seems that more often than not one is fighting against false information or exagerated claims or just pure planted propaganda sold as fact by less discerning journalists in order to make money or meet a deadline. It is not easy to get out of this situation as it is embedded in US culture and unfortunately when its blatant propoganda can be very damaging to the national image. It all comes down to the management of information and how one ultimately uses that information.
 
GenSeneca;51536]I agree with this statement so please don't try to spin my next comment as being pro-torture.

Fair enough. Let me see if I can give you a reasonable answer.

Do Criminals act MORE lawfully when the Cops are NOT corrupt? Statements like the one you made make zero sense to me... Terrorists are terrorists, they follow NO RULES, no matter how many rules we set for ourselves.

We shouldn't torture people but whether we do it or not WILL NOT CHANGE the fact that terrorists don't play by any rules, ever, and terrorists are NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE by their own people for violations... American's who break our rules, or the ones we agreed to internationally, are held to account by America. Terrorists won't hold other terrorists accountable for their "immoral and illegal" actions.

Just like with any other major crime laws are put forward for two reasons... deterrence & punishment. The fact is some criminals are deterred. How ever small a number that might be it is some. You know yourself there have been hundreds if not thousands of cases over the years where terrorists have exchanged captives or let captives go.

I remember the famous line Tom Laughlin used playing Billy Jack in the movie Billy Jack... a movie about a small corrupt and bigoted police force out west that treated Native Americans terribly any time they came into contact with them.

He said... When policemen break the law then there isn't any law... just the fight for survival.

And that's true. The fact that bad people do terrible things is exactly the reason why we shouldn't. It brings us down to their level and gives us absolutely no credibility on any scale.

I want the moral high ground whenever we go to the Haag trying to get a terrorist locked up for life or executed. The last thing we need is the judges thinking... yeah and America is famous for torturing prisoners.



Everyone should check out these 2 YouTubes. The first is just great Billy Jack movie fight footage... Great movie! The Second is Tom Laughlin today on John McCain... take a look!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWCAVzM384


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeYyi0labB8
 
I want the moral high ground

I'm tired of blather about "morality", when there is never any moral argument. Speak up and prove by moral arguments why IFs shouldn't be subject to coercive methods to prevent the deaths of women and children, or shut up.
 
I'm tired of blather about "morality", when there is never any moral argument. Speak up and prove by moral arguments why IFs shouldn't be subject to coercive methods to prevent the deaths of women and children, or shut up.

Well I think it's pretty clear by now a silly neo-con ranter like yourself could never shut anyone up. And why doesn't it surprise me that you have just great problems with a moral argument?

On top of the facts that it's barbaric and often gives you bad information the main fact would be that not all prisoners would even have the information you are looking for.

It's the same moral equivalent as saying we should torture everyone ever arrested (not convicted, arrested) for selling dope because at some point, someplace, somewhere somebody will die because of drugs.

We're Americans and we're better than that!
I know that George Bush and his gang of thugs has promoted this "the end justifies the means" mentality. But thankfully it will be changing soon.
 
Just like with any other major crime laws are put forward for two reasons... deterrence & punishment.

You derailed yourself on the very first line...

We, America, make and agree to laws - Terrorists DO NOT. We will ALWAYS have the "Moral High Ground" when fighting these people - even if we tortured every single one of them, we still don't fight from schools where we use children as meat sheilds. We don't fight from churches and mosques where we use innocent people as fodder. And we DONT kill indiscriminately for the sake of imposing as much suffering on the civilian population as possible.

America is a nation of Laws but our Laws do nothing to deter Terrorists from plying their sadistic trade.
 
You derailed yourself on the very first line...

We, America, make and agree to laws - Terrorists DO NOT. We will ALWAYS have the "Moral High Ground" when fighting these people - even if we tortured every single one of them, we still don't fight from schools where we use children as meat sheilds. We don't fight from churches and mosques where we use innocent people as fodder. And we DONT kill indiscriminately for the sake of imposing as much suffering on the civilian population as possible.

America is a nation of Laws but our Laws do nothing to deter Terrorists from plying their sadistic trade.

Not true at all...

Criminals don't "agree" to laws either. If they did they wouldn't break them. The baby rapist or serial murderer doesn't "agree" with laws. They just do what they want. And we don't torture them.

You need to remember one thing when you get too wound up with "anything goes with terrorists". There was a time in the American Revolution that much of the world looked at us as the terrorists. We didn't line up in open fields and use marksmanship to win battles as was the norm of the day because we were out skilled and out numbered. We started employing so called Indian fighting. Ambushing and shooting from behind rocks & trees.

I'm not saying this to justify terrorism in anyway. I'm just saying that the definition is often dictated by the winner. One sides terrorist is the other sides Freedom Fighter or Patriot.

We don't need to nor should we employ terrorism to beat terrorism. We will win in an honorable way because we are Americans and that stands for something!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQWCAVzM384
 
Well I think it's pretty clear by now a silly neo-con ranter like yourself could never shut anyone up. And why doesn't it surprise me that you have just great problems with a moral argument?

On top of the facts that it's barbaric and often gives you bad information the main fact would be that not all prisoners would even have the information you are looking for.

It's the same moral equivalent as saying we should torture everyone ever arrested (not convicted, arrested) for selling dope because at some point, someplace, somewhere somebody will die because of drugs.

We're Americans and we're better than that!
I know that George Bush and his gang of thugs has promoted this "the end justifies the means" mentality. But thankfully it will be changing soon.


So you have no arguments? Gosh - am I surprised? You're a dimwitted version of Popeye - all slurs, but they're dimwitted slurs. :D
 
Lib, I'm glad you quoted him before he had a chance to edit his comments...

Top Gun, You repeated what I already said:

We don't need to nor should we employ terrorism to beat terrorism. We will win in an honorable way because we are Americans and that stands for something!

Remember? I said I was NOT pro-torture and asked that you not twist my words to set up your strawman argument... You did it anyway.

Comparing Apples to Oranges as you are is totally irrelevant. Laws we make HERE IN AMERICA do not affect the actions of terrorists. Those American Criminals you refer to are under the jurisdiction of America and subject to its laws... The same cannot be said for Terrorists.

a silly neo-con ranter like yourself could never shut anyone up

I hope not... thats not my intent. That tactic is reserved for the Stalinist Left who are intolerant of opinions that differ from their own. And in case you didn't know, Neo-Cons have a Liberal Socialist streak in them - I don't.
 
473. EM wave torture (3/18/07)

On 1/24/2000, I arrived at Seal Ream, a town famous with its history site - Ankor wah. A young man picked me up at the bus station and sent me to a Guest House by the motorcycle. It was a common way for transportation in Cambodia.

On 1/25, I came across with him at the reception hall. He offered me a "One day tour" for next day. The bargain included an extra tour. He would ride me to visit Ankor Wah later that day (1/25), because after four o'clock, according to him, the authority wouldn't check the ticket. So I only need to buy one day's permission on 1/26. And I could spent the whole day on other interesting temples. There were about a dozen of them. He showed me the tourist map.

I accepted the deal. About four o'clock, he rid me to the Ankor Wah. He dropped me at the entrance, said I could find him at a tea house nearby. So I went into the temple alone. It was late afternoon, tourists were leaving. I am the only one going the opposite way. I visited the temple with a tourist book. At last I got to the top of Ankor Wah.

It was dusk. I sat on a stone, watching the beautiful sunset, I felt homesick. It was ten months since I drifted in South-east Asia. Though Ankoh Wah was a famous history site, I came here not as a tourist but a refugee to escape the persecution from the Feds. How absurd, a so said democratic country was a so dark country.

Just then I felt a noise, like something moving inside my ear. I felt a little dizzy and sick. I turned around, saw two western men about ten feet away behind me. One held a film camera which was pretty a big one, the other one carried a wooden box which I thought was for battery. The camera seemed aiming at sunset but I knew it was at me. We were on same direction and I was in the middle. I immediately left the Ankoh Wah, left the beautiful sight view which I enjoyed so much.

Next morning I visited other temples until to the Ta Prohm. It was as interesting as Ankor Wah. The temple was kept in its original condition when it was discovered. The giant trees grew up on the temple ruins. Its root stretched in the gap of the big stones. The mood was so ancient and mysterious that some film took it as background. Then I saw that two camera men again. I had to left Ta Prohm earlier to avoid an EM wave torture.

It was before noon. The young man suddenly said the tour was finished. Most temples he introduced the day before hadn't been visited yet. He denied he had made a promise. I couldn't force him to continue. Then why did he gave me two rides that could be done in one day? The road to Ankor Wah was on the same journey to other temples. It was overlapped.

I then knew he must be from secret police of Cambodian. Ankor Wah is a hot travel spot. There used to be a lot of tourists there. To avoid other tourist disturbing the EM wave shooting, the secret police planned a bargain deal at dusk. They almost succeeded if I was not aware of their secret weapon. They did succeed in one thing. That evening on top of Ankor Wah, there were only three people: Me, a potential victim and two men of Feds - special handler of EM wave ray.

On 1/28, I was in Phnom Penh. I joined a local tour. I visited killing field, then to a concentration camp -Tuol Sleng - where Khmer Raug (Spelling? Cambodia communist Party) killed several thousand prisoners there. I watched the jail cell, victims' pictures and then, to a room where torture tool displayed. I met with the two camera men for the third time. They already have set up their camera there, aimed at the display torture tool. If the target stood down to watch, a button would be pushed and a real torture would happen. I passed the exhibition without any delay.

It's a sarcasm that the Feds planned a torture at a site where they accuse others committing the torture crime. When this government claim Saddam torture people, kill civilians, I never took it seriously. Because it did same thing.

A totalitarian country does the torture and kill because the system allows them do it openly. So we know it.
A "democratic" country such like US does same thing but rare people knows because they developed a system to do it covertly. Although there is a constitution to restrain it namely, step by step, the Feds are not satisfy with "do it covertly". They try to make it legally by Patriot Act and "War on terror", by Guantanamo and "enemy combatant".

When CIA and Pentagon make "waterboarding" a legal interrogation technic, I can't help to think of the torture room in Tuol Sleng. Though I didn't stop to watch the torture tool display, I knew one tool is a big water box used to choke victim's breathe. (From the picture illustration before the display room) What's the difference between Khmer Roug (spelling?) and the Feds?
 
473. EM wave torture (3/18/07)

On 1/24/2000, I arrived at Seal Ream, a town famous with its history site - Ankor wah. A young man picked me up at the bus station and sent me to a Guest House by the motorcycle. It was a common way for transportation in Cambodia.

On 1/25, I came across with him at the reception hall. He offered me a "One day tour" for next day. The bargain included an extra tour. He would ride me to visit Ankor Wah later that day (1/25), because after four o'clock, according to him, the authority wouldn't check the ticket. So I only need to buy one day's permission on 1/26. And I could spent the whole day on other interesting temples. There were about a dozen of them. He showed me the tourist map.

I accepted the deal. About four o'clock, he rid me to the Ankor Wah. He dropped me at the entrance, said I could find him at a tea house nearby. So I went into the temple alone. It was late afternoon, tourists were leaving. I am the only one going the opposite way. I visited the temple with a tourist book. At last I got to the top of Ankor Wah.

It was dusk. I sat on a stone, watching the beautiful sunset, I felt homesick. It was ten months since I drifted in South-east Asia. Though Ankoh Wah was a famous history site, I came here not as a tourist but a refugee to escape the persecution from the Feds. How absurd, a so said democratic country was a so dark country.

Just then I felt a noise, like something moving inside my ear. I felt a little dizzy and sick. I turned around, saw two western men about ten feet away behind me. One held a film camera which was pretty a big one, the other one carried a wooden box which I thought was for battery. The camera seemed aiming at sunset but I knew it was at me. We were on same direction and I was in the middle. I immediately left the Ankoh Wah, left the beautiful sight view which I enjoyed so much.

Next morning I visited other temples until to the Ta Prohm. It was as interesting as Ankor Wah. The temple was kept in its original condition when it was discovered. The giant trees grew up on the temple ruins. Its root stretched in the gap of the big stones. The mood was so ancient and mysterious that some film took it as background. Then I saw that two camera men again. I had to left Ta Prohm earlier to avoid an EM wave torture.

It was before noon. The young man suddenly said the tour was finished. Most temples he introduced the day before hadn't been visited yet. He denied he had made a promise. I couldn't force him to continue. Then why did he gave me two rides that could be done in one day? The road to Ankor Wah was on the same journey to other temples. It was overlapped.

I then knew he must be from secret police of Cambodian. Ankor Wah is a hot travel spot. There used to be a lot of tourists there. To avoid other tourist disturbing the EM wave shooting, the secret police planned a bargain deal at dusk. They almost succeeded if I was not aware of their secret weapon. They did succeed in one thing. That evening on top of Ankor Wah, there were only three people: Me, a potential victim and two men of Feds - special handler of EM wave ray.

On 1/28, I was in Phnom Penh. I joined a local tour. I visited killing field, then to a concentration camp -Tuol Sleng - where Khmer Raug (Spelling? Cambodia communist Party) killed several thousand prisoners there. I watched the jail cell, victims' pictures and then, to a room where torture tool displayed. I met with the two camera men for the third time. They already have set up their camera there, aimed at the display torture tool. If the target stood down to watch, a button would be pushed and a real torture would happen. I passed the exhibition without any delay.

It's a sarcasm that the Feds planned a torture at a site where they accuse others committing the torture crime. When this government claim Saddam torture people, kill civilians, I never took it seriously. Because it did same thing.

A totalitarian country does the torture and kill because the system allows them do it openly. So we know it.
A "democratic" country such like US does same thing but rare people knows because they developed a system to do it covertly. Although there is a constitution to restrain it namely, step by step, the Feds are not satisfy with "do it covertly". They try to make it legally by Patriot Act and "War on terror", by Guantanamo and "enemy combatant".

When CIA and Pentagon make "waterboarding" a legal interrogation technic, I can't help to think of the torture room in Tuol Sleng. Though I didn't stop to watch the torture tool display, I knew one tool is a big water box used to choke victim's breathe. (From the picture illustration before the display room) What's the difference between Khmer Roug (spelling?) and the Feds?


Let me get this straight. The United States is in Cambodia with a new video camera that tortures people that it gets pointed at? Right. Maybe we should call the Men in Black.
 
GenSeneca;51930]Lib, I'm glad you quoted him before he had a chance to edit his comments...

Top Gun, You repeated what I already said:

There was nothing to edit. I'm not in disagreement with ever single line you write.;)

We don't need to nor should we employ terrorism to beat terrorism. We will win in an honorable way because we are Americans and that stands for something!

Remember? I said I was NOT pro-torture and asked that you not twist my words to set up your strawman argument... You did it anyway.

Comparing Apples to Oranges as you are is totally irrelevant. Laws we make HERE IN AMERICA do not affect the actions of terrorists. Those American Criminals you refer to are under the jurisdiction of America and subject to its laws... The same cannot be said for Terrorists.

a silly neo-con ranter like yourself could never shut anyone up

I hope not... thats not my intent. That tactic is reserved for the Stalinist Left who are intolerant of opinions that differ from their own. And in case you didn't know, Neo-Cons have a Liberal Socialist streak in them - I don't.

There was no twisting and no strawman... no Stalinists or anything else. I simply agreed that the US shouldn't torture and gave a laundry list of very factual reasons why that's the case.

It all seems very understandable.
 
Terrorist do alot of stuff we dont dont want to do, that why we say they are bad and evil and we are not.

If you want to take the moral road, you can't be torturing people, its just that simple.

America is better then that, or at least should be.
....And, what better time, than NOW??!!!!

"Our government authorized the use of torture, approved of secret electronic surveillance against American citizens, secretly detained American citizens without due process of law, denied the writ of habeas corpus to hundreds of accused enemy combatants and authorized the use of procedures that violate both international law and the United States Constitution....We owe the American people a reckoning."

:cool:
 
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Let me get this straight. The United States is in Cambodia with a new video camera that tortures people that it gets pointed at? Right. Maybe we should call the Men in Black.
A little CONSISTANCY would suit me!​

"An extreme form of interrogation going back at least as far as the Spanish Inquisition, waterboarding has been condemned as torture by just about everyoneexcept the hired legal hands of the Bush administration.

Waterboarding has been condemned as torture for a very long time. After WWII Japanese soldiers were hanged for the "war crime" of waterboarding American soldiers."
 
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