What a filthy work !

[numinus]

I think the Goat would outsmart you , so .....

As expected, your arguments are all reduced to ineffable twaddle when confronted with unassailable FACTS AND LOGIC.

Why even bother responding anyway, hmmm? Clearly, words are wasted on the hopelessly ignorant.

Duh?

 

[numinus]

Numinus has stated that the Founding Fathers engaged in massacre. He also said:He obviously hates the U.S. Like so many Zionists he holds Americans in contempt.

You need not post what I already posted since I know precisely what I said.

If anything, what I said were statements regardin MATTERS OF ACTUAL FACT.

Duh?

The U.S. is finally realizing that we are being made fools of by the Israelis. We hand over billions of dollars and even fight wars for people that hate us. Our soldiers die for a country that supplies our enemies (like China) with advanced weapons!

Here's Secretary of State Dulles: "I am aware how almost impossible it is in this country to carry out a foreign policy not approved by the Jews."

Here's Israeli PM Sharon: "Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

C'mon U.S.A. we don't have to be used like this!

You are infatuated with goat-herder logic and you expect reasonable people to be reduced to your sorry, whinning state??? Now, you think that us public opinion, as well as the state's entire administrative apparatus, is being stupidly misled???

The truth of the matter is that israel is the one single power that would oblige to further us interests in that region. That is the entire point of your alliance with israel -- something that is based on MUTUAL AND CONGRUENT STATE INTERESTS.

That's all.

Still prancing and pirouetting around the facts, numinus.

You can't disguise the premeditated crimes of the Israelis. They massacred civilians, engaged in acts of terror, stole the land from the original inhabitants, and have refused to return the stolen land to this day.

Or as an Israeli historian put it: These sources leave no doubt that, in the decades before 1948, the leaders of Zionism concocted a premeditated plan to expel the native Palestinian population. Pappé details how these Israeli "heroes" executed the plan in the period from December 1947 to March 1949 through the use of massacres, rapes, demolition of villages, and forced expulsion of the native population.

The only one disguising anything around here is you. You speak of israeli crimes when the palestinian goat-herders and their arab 'bretheren' are equally, if not MORE guilty.

The fundamental difference is that israel used any and all means to defend herself. What's your excuse, eh?

Duh?

Now do you deny the Zionist's premeditated acts of terror and massacres and forced expulsion of the native population?

Nonsense. I'm not denying anything. Everything they did were thoroughly justified in the face of the arab's consuming hate towards them.

I have given you pertinent facts, facts that are on record and are matters of standard and accepted history -- NONE OF WHICH YOU CAN IMPUGNE TO ANY REASONABLE EXTENT.

Igrun operated beyond ethical boundaries??? Well boo-hoo, the arabs were doing it long before the thought to retaliate ever occured to the jews. It was a well calculated move to deter further aggression on equally helpless jewish civilians and I'd do exactly the same thing under the same circumstances.

The us nuked two japanese cities to prevent further loss of lives of military personnel -- not civilians. You obliterated two cities, along with all the men, women, children, houses, schools, hospitals, pets and backyard garden on no better justification than to end a debilitating war and save SOLDIERS. Guess what??? They got over it. They simply decided to beat you in entirely legal means -- through your economy.

Time for you to get over it yourself since no one is taking your obnoxious whinning seriously.

Duh?

 

[Fisher of Men]

That is the entire point of your alliance with israel -- something that is based on MUTUAL AND CONGRUENT STATE INTERESTS.

Yeah right. You must think the Americans on this forum are stupid if you expect them to buy that. Is it in America's interest to be hated by half the world because we support Israeli attacks on civilians? Is it in America's interest to send billions of taxpayer dollars to Israel？ How about Israel selling weapons to China - is that in our best interest? How about the oil embargo we suffered through because of Israel? Was that in our best interest?

I'm not denying anything.

Okay great, you are on record acknowledging the Zionist's premeditated acts of terror and massacres and forced expulsion of the native population. I'm glad we got that straight.

Igrun operated beyond ethical boundaries??? Well boo-hoo

Your indifference to terrorism noted.

You obliterated two cities, along with all the men, women, children, houses, schools, hospitals, pets and backyard garden

More hatred of the U.S.

 

[numinus]

Yeah right. You must think the Americans on this forum are stupid if you expect them to buy that. Is it in America's interest to be hated by half the world because we support Israeli attacks on civilians? Is it in America's interest to send billions of taxpayer dollars to Israel？ How about Israel selling weapons to China - is that in our best interest? How about the oil embargo we suffered through because of Israel? Was that in our best interest?

Not all americans, but some really are beyond any hope of redemption.

You are correct, though. It is in the interest of the us to be able to project military and economic presence throughout the world. That is why you spend big -- to be able to get even bigger. Its simple logic really -- one that is quantifiable by basic long-term cost-benefit analysis.

What is quite naive, actually, is your opinion that your government is spending all that out of the goodness of your collective hearts.

Duh?

Okay great, you are on record acknowledging the Zionist's premeditated acts of terror and massacres and forced expulsion of the native population. I'm glad we got that straight.

Your indifference to terrorism noted.

LOL.

Again -- you need not note what I'm saying because -- guess what???? -- they are all matters of actual fact. They are standard history.

Did they massacre arabs? It certainly isn't beyond the scope of what para-military organizations do -- a bit of tit for their tat. Did they forcibly expel arabs? They most likely did in some cases. When you conduct a defensive war, some places otherwise populated by civilians would gain military strategic importance. You draw battle and supply lines on a map, and whether these lines traverse populated areas or not is irrelevant to military goals. The majority simply fled so as not to interfere in what they thought would be an extermination.

But the FACTS still remain -- all were not only necessary but crucial, TO THEIR EXISTENCE AS A SEPARATE AND INDEPENDENT NATION.

More hatred of the U.S.

LOL.

Who exactly would be inclined to believe your silly accusations when you are willing to overlook the immense cost in human life of TWO NUCLEAR ATTACKS, eh?

You see, I am educated in an american established educational institution. I lived all my life believing your country is a benevolent world leader. If I have any biased bone in my body, it would be skewed towards your country.

Whatever bias I may have is irrelevant to the FACT, you dropped atomic bombs in hiroshima and nagasaki for the purpose of ending ww2 as quickly as possible. These cities did not have any strategic military importance -- it was purely psychological. The message was explicit -- continue the war or face annihilation.

 

[Fisher of Men]

What is quite naive, actually, is your opinion that your government is spending all that out of the goodness of your collective hearts.

That opinion would be naive, but it is not mine. The U.S. government is not being generous, it is being used. AIPAC and neocons are influential in Washington. AIPAC was voted the 2nd most powerful lobby (after senior citizens) in Fortune magazine. American politicians are bribed to put the interests of Israel first.

Did they massacre arabs? It certainly isn't beyond the scope of what para-military organizations do -- a bit of tit for their tat. Did they forcibly expel arabs? They most likely did in some cases.

Further acknowledgment of Israeli atrocities. Good.

Since Palestinians were a large majority in that land in the early decades of the 20th century how can you possibly claim the war was defensive?

the immense cost in human life of TWO NUCLEAR ATTACKS

These cities did not have any strategic military importance

Do you ever tire of hate-filled attacks on the U.S.? Now you are saying in effect that Harry Truman was a war criminal. And Truman did so much for Israel. Why don't you feel gratitude? Libel against a man who saved Israel - you are loathsome.

 

[numinus]

That opinion would be naive, but it is not mine. The U.S. government is not being generous, it is being used. AIPAC and neocons are influential in Washington. AIPAC was voted the 2nd most powerful lobby (after senior citizens) in Fortune magazine. American politicians are bribed to put the interests of Israel first.

American politicians are being bribed for well over half a century to radically skew the country's foreign policy, eh?

Do you have any control as to how ridiculous you get?

Uhmmm...duh?

Further acknowledgment of Israeli atrocities. Good.

Unlike you, I'm not in the habit of criticizing someone for doing something I feel I'd do myself under the same circumstances.

Duh?

Since Palestinians were a large majority in that land in the early decades of the 20th century how can you possibly claim the war was defensive?

Because if it were an offensive war, israel would've occupied the entire area bounded by egypt, iraq, syria and lebanon -- including palestine.

That isn't the case, now, is it? They only occupied territory necessary for their own defense.

Or do you need a dumbed-down definition of 'defensive'?

Do you ever tire of hate-filled attacks on the U.S.? Now you are saying in effect that Harry Truman was a war criminal. And Truman did so much for Israel. Why don't you feel gratitude? Libel against a man who saved Israel - you are loathsome.

Do you ever tire of looking like a complete *****?

What has gratitude got to do with facts and logic -- eh? Being pro or anti american wouldn't erase the fact that the us did drop 2 atom bombs in japan.

Uhmmm...duh?

 

[Fisher of Men]

American politicians are being bribed

You are surprised by this numinus? Are you naive? Stupid? Both?

Unlike you, I'm not in the habit of criticizing someone for doing something I feel I'd do myself under the same circumstances.

You itch to ethnically cleanse, I guess that's what I'd expect from you. Please don't project your ugly urges on the rest of us.

They only occupied territory necessary for their own defense.

But in the early decades of the 20th century few Jews lived in what is now Israel. The land wasn't theirs. The Jews came from Europe and seized the land using massacre and rape - as you have admitted. So wouldn't you agree that your talk of Zionists engaging in a defensive war is even more idiotic than your usual twaddle?

Being pro or anti american wouldn't erase the fact that the us did drop 2 atom bombs in japan.

But your accusations didn't stop there numinus, you effectively accused Truman of being a war criminal. Combined with your other hateful and ignorant remarks about the Founding Fathers your posts reveal a deep-seated hatred of the U.S. This is of course disgusting because every Israeli should be on their knees thanking the U.S. for saving the Jews time after time.

I'd like to end out discussion with some realities you must face: Israel is one of the most hated countries in the world. Israel is surrounded by countries that loathe it - and for good reason. The Democratic Party will increasingly ignore Israeli demands in the coming years. Within a few decades Palestinians, with their higher birth rates, will attain majority status within Israel. No matter how often you drop cluster bombs on children you will fail in the end.

Conclusion: Sucks to be you.

 

[numinus]

You are surprised by this numinus? Are you naive? Stupid? Both?

You are calling me naive or stupid as if your unsubstantiated claims have any bearing?????

Someone being bribed to skew sensitive foreign policy against the interests of the nation would amount to the worst traitor -- an offense punishable by death.

For something this serious, you need to prove it in a court of law.

Duh?

You itch to ethnically cleanse, I guess that's what I'd expect from you. Please don't project your ugly urges on the rest of us.

I itch to retaliate against mindless bullies. In my experience, that is the only language these sort ever understands. One couldn't possibly construe that for ethnic cleansing. As I said, using the atom bomb is closer to ethnic cleansing than that.

Duh?

But in the early decades of the 20th century few Jews lived in what is now Israel. The land wasn't theirs. The Jews came from Europe and seized the land using massacre and rape - as you have admitted. So wouldn't you agree that your talk of Zionists engaging in a defensive war is even more idiotic than your usual twaddle?

No. They BOUGHT land to form the prototypical kibbutz. The zionists were the ones who took the trouble of draining worthless marsh and reclaiming land for agricultural purposes.

The arabs, on the other hand, are totally gripped by their culture of violence and harsh justice, a culture that can only be shaped from a nomadic people by the harsh desert (as if being completely bound to serfdom wasn't enough). They still are in this day and age.

If you had even the most rudimentary education in that worthless skull of yours, you'd realize exactly what kind of world view would concoct something as heinious as ethnic cleansing.

But your accusations didn't stop there numinus, you effectively accused Truman of being a war criminal. Combined with your other hateful and ignorant remarks about the Founding Fathers your posts reveal a deep-seated hatred of the U.S. This is of course disgusting because every Israeli should be on their knees thanking the U.S. for saving the Jews time after time.

Nonsense.

The point, if you even have the barest of common sense, is that IF you apply YOUR standard of justice and political necessity to render the jews guilty, then THE SAME standard could easily be used against your own country.

The operation of logic is INESCAPABLE. One cannot say something is wrong one minute and it is right the next.

Is that clear enough or do you need me to dumb that down further?

I'd like to end out discussion with some realities you must face: Israel is one of the most hated countries in the world. Israel is surrounded by countries that loathe it - and for good reason. The Democratic Party will increasingly ignore Israeli demands in the coming years. Within a few decades Palestinians, with their higher birth rates, will attain majority status within Israel. No matter how often you drop cluster bombs on children you will fail in the end.

Nonsense. You couldn't discern reality even if it sat on your face and defecated.

The reality, if you must know, is that the EXISTENCE of the state of israel is A MATTER OF ACTUAL FACT --whatever that actual fact entails.

The state of israel was UNANIMOUSLY ACCEPTED within the community of nations -- whatever legal right and responsibility such an acceptance entails.

As a matter of right, israel is SOVEREIGN within its territory. Along with this sovereignty, israel reserves the right to use any means to secure its peacable and continued existence.

Israel has the right to defend itself from external aggression and internal threats of security and safety. The international community has no more business on how israel deals with terrorists than on how the us deals with the same.

Live with it.

Conclusion: Sucks to be you.

As if I care about the opinions of ignorant morons!

Duh?

 

[Free Palestine]

Demagoguery. The Israeli people have been subject to rocket attacks for how long now? They are doing what they think that they must do to counter the attacks. If there were no rockets landing on Israel, you would find a more sympathetic audience. If the Palestinians did not vote the Hezbollah into power and celebrate in the streets when they won the election, you would have a more sympathetic audience.
In the mean time, peddle your foolish propaganda elsewhere.

Well, Palestinians started fighting rockets since 2001. But it's important to mention that Israel started rockets and massacres since 1948. You must distinguish between the number of Israeli people killed because of rockets which is less than 30 since 2001 on one hand , and the number of Palestinians killed only in the last war by the Israeli rockets which was more than 1500 , only 60 were armed and the rest were civilinas on the other hand !!!!!! . Now I think you know who is the Demagoguery ! .

 

[Free Palestine]

This is absolute nonsense. If you are stupid enough to test what a NAVAL BLOCKADE is supposed to be, then you will get exactly that -- a first hand experience on what a naval blockade is.

Now, if you want to bring in humanitarian aid to gaza, your chances would be a helluva lot better if you sent them via egypt. But that wouldn't be as fun as far as goat-herder rhetorics is concerned, now, would it?

I forgot to tell you that the Egyption regime is like a toy in the Israeli hands , all the world knows this . The Egyption regime has been ruling for 30 years, although the percentage of Egyptions who support it is almost a BIG ZERO .

This reveals the American lies of supporting democracy , why does America deal with such a regime which is not elected , and its record in human rights is black , and in the same time rejects to deal with Hamas which was elected under the supervision of the USA ???

 

[Free Palestine]

No, they are not.

If one were to indulge you on this, then the civilians within a city hundreds of kilometers within israel cannot possibly be considered an aggressor. The aggressor would be the israeli army openly approaching at their doorstep.

And these incursions are necessary in the first place because rocket fire is coming from civilian neighborhoods in the occupied territories. Those are facts. Deal with it.

Honestly now? What exactly would you want them to do? Your country went to war in afghanistan (and rightly so) for something much much less.

What has happened to your mind ??

The agressors were the people who came from Russia, USA, Poland and other countries and stole the land , killed the people , and finally built a "state" on the skulls of civilinas , these are the real agressors. It's misleading to cut the history and say that the crisis started since rockets started to be launched . This is a BIG LIE !

The truth is that zionists came and stole the land of Palestinians. If you were a Palestinian, you would fight to protect yourself and your land . This is what Palestinians have been doing since 1948 NOT 2001 .

 

[dogtowner]

Your English may not be very good Free, but I see what you are getting at. People around the world are disgusted by Israel's attack on a ship in international waters. An American teenager and a 60-year-old man were among those killed. Their crime: bringing humanitarian aid to the suffering people of Gaza.

link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-attack-autopsy-results

I think it wold have been enough to sink the boats and let the fools swim back from wince they came. But as they insisted upon emulating St Rachel de Pancake they got what they came for.

 

[Aus22]

Numius, The Israel blockcade fail and has largely been dismounted, The Cuban blockade at least for a short time succeeded and stop the Russians bombing the USA.

 

[numinus]

I forgot to tell you that the Egyption regime is like a toy in the Israeli hands , all the world knows this . The Egyption regime has been ruling for 30 years, although the percentage of Egyptions who support it is almost a BIG ZERO .

What the hell kind of nonsense are you babbling about, eh?

Egypt, like any country in the community of nations, is sovereign within its territory. How its government came to power isn't the business of anyone, least of all the palestinians in gaza nor the israelis. That is what SOVEREIGN means, if you haven't figured that out by now.

The only reason this alleged humanitarian aide isn't entering gaza via egypt is because any contraband would be so much easier to detect unlike a naval vessel. That is the point of the naval blockade. That this ship from turkey opted to deliver humanitarian aide through a naval blockade is already a measure of BAD FAITH. At the very least, I see it as a test of israel's resolve to protect itself. That is exactly what they found out.

This reveals the American lies of supporting democracy , why does America deal with such a regime which is not elected , and its record in human rights is black , and in the same time rejects to deal with Hamas which was elected under the supervision of the USA ???

Eh? What naive nonsense!

In that case, no one should be listening to the palestinian authority. The pa have elected officials who are, at the same time, members of hamas -- an illegal organization who maintains an ARMED COMPONENT in open aggression with a legitimate and sovereign nation.

That is the one thing that prevents any negotiated settlement in this conflict -- hamas' REFUSAL to disarm and forgo violence in obtaining a palestinian homeland.

It would be an outrage if it were not laughable in the first place.

 

[numinus]

Numius, The Israel blockcade fail and has largely been dismounted, The Cuban blockade at least for a short time succeeded and stop the Russians bombing the USA.

It was largely a political failure the effects of which bears on public opinion more than anything else. The truth is, israel was well within its rights as far as international law is concerned.

When one is fighting goat-herders cowardly enough to hide underneath women's and children's skirts, public opinion could easily be swayed. These goat-herders are brave only in front of the cameras of the international press. In a confrontation, they would just as easily slink under a rock. They do this for a living, you know?