Understanding the Enemy

[jb_1430]

have you ever even met a goat herder that you speak of?
but you know how they think?
that's amazing.

By reading their writings and religious texts

 

[jb_1430]

Where does Hoffman get his numbers? There are far more then 35 active terrorist groups.

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Oh I see, just pay attention to the parts that fit your agenda and write off those that you do not.
And there are only 35 who have carried out suicide bombings.

 

[Coyote]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!! Oh I see, just pay attention to the parts that fit your agenda and write off those that you do not.
And there are only 35 who have carried out suicide bombings.

Are you not capable of thinking critically or do you accept all your source's statements without question?

I believe there is a name for that: Ovis Aries

 

[Coyote]

Perhaps your not familiar with the writings of Ibn Khaldoon

Khilafah.
1. Ibn Khaldoon defined it as: A representation, of the one who has the right to adopt the divine rules, aimed at protecting the Deen and ruling the world (Dunia) with it.

Intellectually, Ibn Khaldoon was well-educated, having studied (in Tunis first and Fez later) the Quran, Prophet Muhammad's Ahadeeth and other branches of Islamic studies such as dialectical theology, Shari'ah (Islamic Law or Jurisprudence, according to the Maliki School). He also studied Arabic literature, philosophy, mathematics and astronomy.
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=92757

From his times to the present, Islamic scholars have had this same interpretation.

Interesting article. But I'm not sure what you're point is in relation to my response to Numinus' statement: "Oh, and for the benefit of the low-brows in the forum, religious texts were never meant to be read like a grocery list."

 

[jb_1430]

Are you not capable of thinking critically or do you accept all your source's statements without question?

I believe there is a name for that: Ovis Aries

Well its your source, not mine, I question most of it and you just gave us a good demonstration of your critical thinking process. Embracing the parts that fit your agenda and write off those that do not.

 

[jb_1430]

Interesting article. But I'm not sure what you're point is in relation to my response to Numinus' statement: "Oh, and for the benefit of the low-brows in the forum, religious texts were never meant to be read like a grocery list."

Ibn khalddon is a real Islamic scholar doing precisely what you allege a real scholar would not do. "Hermeneutics"?? ISLAM??? You guys dont have the slightest idea as to what you are talking about.

 

[bewitched]

Ibn khalddon is a real Islamic scholar doing precisely what you allege a real scholar would not do. "Hermeneutics"?? ISLAM??? You guys dont have the slightest idea as to what you are talking about.

the information is out there. those that choose not to see it should not ask questions when the US is attacked again.

 

[vyo476]

And if they have surrendered their rational faculties to religious doctrine, this is important to understanding that enemy.

But what's more important is looking at why they're interpreting that doctrine the way they are. Don't give me your "because that's what it says" line. Every time you say that, I can see you staring a Muslim who isn't a terrorist (there are a rather large number of those, as even you have to acknowledge) in the face and saying, "I called your religion evil. Here's why, based on my unyielding, literalist, Western point of view. Your own point of view on your own religion doesn't matter. I'm right and your religion is evil. If you try to argue with me I'll just keep telling you that. Over and over."

JB, bewitched, there's one thing I've never gotten a cogent answer on. Where does your line of thinking take you? As pale rider would say, what's the logical conclusion? If it becomes widely accepted that Islam is "evil" and the baseline cause of terrorism, what happens then? How do we attack the problem? Do we bomb some Muslim holy cities? Outlaw the Qur'an in places like Iraq and Afghanistan? Round up the Muslim population of the US and send them to internment camps? Or does this whole "Islam is the cause of terrorism" thing lead nowhere?

 

[jb_1430]

But what's more important is looking at why they're interpreting that doctrine the way they are. Don't give me your "because that's what it says" line. Every time you say that, I can see you staring a Muslim who isn't a terrorist (there are a rather large number of those, as even you have to acknowledge) in the face and saying, "I called your religion evil. Here's why, based on my unyielding, literalist, Western point of view.

WTF are you babbling about? I present the writings of Muslims and direct quotes from the Koran and haddiths. I dont rely on a western point of view and present only the views of Muslims. Like I say over and over and still it doesnt sink in with those of you in some weird state of denial, my and our views are irrelevant. THEIR views regarding religion control their actions, not ours. And when I do present those views I have these idiots trying to apply western concepts of hermeneutics to Islam. What a freakin joke.

 

[jb_1430]

"I called your religion evil. Here's why, based on my unyielding, literalist, Western point of view. Your own point of view on your own religion doesn't matter.

Heres some of what you allege is a "western point of view" that Ive posted on this group before. And as I say repeatedly , My point of view is irrelevant, thats why I present the views and interpretations of Muslims. Im sure some of the fools here will allege its not religious, its political. And Im sure you wont read it so you can allege that all Ive presented is my own point of view.

Islam is not merely a belief, so that it is enough merely to preach it. Islam, which is a way of life, takes practical steps to organize a movement for freeing man. Other societies do not give it any opportunity to organize its followers according to its own method, and hence it is the duty of Islam to annihilate all such systems, as they are obstacles in the way of universal freedom. ...
This religion is really a universal declaration of the freedom of man from servitude to other men and from servitude to his own desires, which is also a form of human servitude; it is a declaration that sovereignty belongs to God alone and that He is the Lord of all the worlds. It means a challenge to all kinds and forms of systems which are based on the concept of the sovereignty of man; in other words, where man has usurped the Divine attribute. Any system in which the final decisions are referred to human beings, and in which the sources of all authority are human, deifies human beings by designating others than God as lords over men. This declaration means that the usurped authority of God be returned to Him and the usurpers be thrown out-those who by themselves devise laws for others to follow, thus elevating themselves to the status of lords and reducing others to the status of slaves. In short, to proclaim the authority and sovereignty of God means to eliminate all human kingship and to announce the rule of the Sustainer of the universe over the entire earth. ...

Indeed, Islam has the right to take the initiative. Islam is not a heritage of any particular race or country; this is God's religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions which limit man's freedom of choice. It does not attack individuals nor does it force them to accept its beliefs; it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and which curtail human freedom.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/milestones/hold/chapter_4.asp

Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
But we, with the help of Allah, replied to all of these fallacies, and showed that democracy is a religion. But it is not Allah’s religion. It is not the religion of monotheism, and its parliamentary councils are just places of
polytheism, and safe havens for paganistic beliefs. All of these must be avoided to achieve monotheism, which is Allah’s right upon His servants. We must destroy those who follow democracy, and we must take their followers as enemies - hate them and wage a great
Jihad against them.
http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/files/books/aqeedah/Democracy - A Religion.pdf

"One day my dear Muslims," shouted Anjem Choudary, "Islam will govern Britain!"
"Brothers and sisters, make no mistake. Make no mistake. The British government, the queen, the MPs in this country, they are enemies to you, enemies to Allah and enemies to the Muslims."
"Say, for instance, I was a Muslim in America. Could I call for the destruction of the American government and establishment of an Islamic state in America? No. So where is the freedom of religion? There is none."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56503

 

[vyo476]

WTF are you babbling about?

Calm down. Stuff like this does not help your case.

I present the writings of Muslims and direct quotes from the Koran and haddiths.

Of some Muslims, surely. Most extremist groups have demogouges. It would do well to ask some of the Muslims who don't run around blowing things up what they have to say.

As for posting direct quotes from the Qur'an and the haddiths, congratulations, you can copy and paste. Without an interpretation they mean nothing. You've shown your rather limited view on things and think that because a few psychopaths write eloquently about that view it's the one true justification for terrorism.

I dont rely on a western point of view and present only the views of Muslims.

None of these views are your own? Go back through our database and I think you'll find that you and I were in disagrement over a thread entitled "Islam is EVIL!" Is that a Western view, or did you get that from Muslims as well?

Like I say over and over and still it doesnt sink in with those of you in some weird state of denial, my and our views are irrelevant.

True enough.

THEIR views regarding religion control their actions, not ours.

And here's where it breaks down. If religion were the baseline motivator you'd see a whole lot more terrorism going on - to the point where it wouldn't be terrorism but out-and-out warfare.

In some cases, it probably is true that religion is the only motivating factor. That sort of extreme fundamentalism is often accompanied by a severe psychological profile - the need to be a part of something, etc. However, sociologically speaking, most people don't wind up at that "incessant joiner" stage due to primary-group relations, which provide a sense of belonging. That's one of the reasons that lifelong loners tend to be attracted to extremist ideologies.

So how are terrorists getting made? Poor conditions and fear of foreign influences outside of personal, national, or regional control. There's a reason that cornered or wounded animals are more dangerous - think of it as a type of panic instinct.

You can't just say, "it's the religion." There's always something behind it.

And when I do present those views I have these idiots trying to apply western concepts of hermeneutics to Islam.

Hermeneutics was a concept developed in the West; however, that does not mean that it applies only to Western ideas.

What a freakin joke.

To my knowledge, you've never taken any of our arguments seriously (could be wrong, but if you have I can't remember it). Is there some profound reason we should take you seriously?

 

[numinus]

wow. you are so freeking smart.
actually he's using Islamic theology to conduct the war.
maybe if you understood all that you wouldn't be rambling all this nonsense on this forum.

He is using quotations from the koran and interpreting them outside their distinct context and millieu. What is that, if not goat-herder logic, eh?

 

[numinus]

When trying to understand your enemy (topic of the thread) your views are irrelevant. And if they have surrendered their rational faculties to religious doctrine, this is important to understanding that enemy. Im sure Tzu probably said something about the motivations of your enemy and understanding them.

And who exactly is your enemy, hmmm?

Islam, in its entirety or the demagogues who misrepresent it? Just because your enemy is employing goat-herder logic doesn't mean you should to, no?

 

[bewitched]

He is using quotations from the koran and interpreting them outside their distinct context and millieu. What is that, if not goat-herder logic, eh?

no he's not.
he's working with the top mullahs and clerics in Islam.
you are just making up stuff, maybe you are a goat herder.

 

[bewitched]

And who exactly is your enemy, hmmm?

Islam, in its entirety or the demagogues who misrepresent it? Just because your enemy is employing goat-herder logic doesn't mean you should to, no?

if you understand that Islam is not a religion of peace then the rest is easy. Mohammed was a warrior. the culture, government, religion is not peaceful. they would like everyone else to think it is but through constant demonstration it clearly isn't.
look at this list and tell me if you think it's peaceful
www.thereligionofpeace.com
these are actual Islamic religious events of death and destruction that happen daily as part of Islam. there is no denying these actions or their cause.