Understanding the Enemy

[numinus]

???? I didnt interpret them, I only quoted them. The interpretation was yours. Obviously you came up with the same interpretation that the Muslim fundamentalist arrived at.

So, by your own admission, you are passing judgement on an entire people of a particular faith based on the actions of a misguided and foolish few.

 

[numinus]

???? I didnt interpret them, I only quoted them.

From which you concluded that islam, as an ideology, is untenable. You are not fooling anyone.

The interpretation was yours. Obviously you came up with the same interpretation that the Muslim fundamentalist arrived at.

I'm sure you are thoroughly confused by now from your own double-speak.

The literal interpretation of the koran IS NOT the ideology of islam, in much the same way that the literal interpretation of the gospels IS NOT christian theology in its entirety.

Terrorists speak of islam in literal terms because it suits their purpose to do so - the purpose being of a political, rather than religious nature. For the us and the west to respond to this war as a confrontation of ideology and culture would only provide these goat-herders an unlimited pool of manpower and resources to draw from and continue fighting. Rational muslims who are otherwise unsympathetic to goat herder logic would naturally turn 180 since you are waging war against their very existence as a people.

Now, are you willing to surrender such an immense initiative to the enemy simply because you fail to see goat herder logic for what it truly is?

 

[jb_1430]

From which you concluded that islam, as an ideology, is untenable. You are not fooling anyone.

I'm sure you are thoroughly confused by now from your own double-speak.

The literal interpretation of the koran IS NOT the ideology of islam, in much the same way that the literal interpretation of the gospels IS NOT christian theology in its entirety.

LOLOL!!! It is for the Islamic fundamentalist. Cant help but notice youve presented nothing other than your own opinions to support your silly arguements. I think you are more impressed with your own opinions than most of us here.

 

[jb_1430]

So, by your own admission, you are passing judgement on an entire people of a particular faith based on the actions of a misguided and foolish few.

Ive not passed judgement "on an entire people of a particular faith". Ive passed judgement on a doctrine that only as small portion of a particuliar faith actualy follow the literal meaning. A distinction you couldnt possibly comprehend.

 

[numinus]

LOLOL!!! It is for the Islamic fundamentalist.

It is for the islamic fundamentalist to..... what? Laugh themselves silly watching you eat with gusto the rhetorics from goat-herder logic?

I have to admit, that would be a hilarious sight indeed.

Cant help but notice youve presented nothing other than your own opinions to support your silly arguements. I think you are more impressed with your own opinions than most of us here.

Sigh

You are aware of the five pillars, are you not? They form the basis of muslim life - INCLUDING JURISPRUDENCE, no?

From wiki:

"The term Sixth pillar of Islam refers to an addition to the Five Pillars of Islam; the five pillars of Islam explain the basic tenets of the Sunni Islam faith, Shi'a Islam uses other concepts.

Introduction

Most Sunni Muslims believe there are precisely five Pillars of Islam, and consider the concept of a sixth pillar to be heretical. The idea of there being more than five pillars is not a mainstream idea; Sunni leaders have taught that there are only five major pillars of the faith.

A few Muslims, mainly some Kharijite groups in ancient times and the founder of Islamic Jihad recently, have taught that Jihad, or personal struggle, should be considered the sixth pillar of Islam. In this context, Jihad is viewed as external war against those perceived to be enemies of Islam.

Jihad

In the early days of Islam, the Kharijite sect are said to have claimed that jihad was the sixth pillar of Islam; (see also takfir). However, the surviving Kharijites (that is, the Ibadis) of the present day reject this doctrine.

The Egyptian founder of Islamic Jihad, Abd al-Salam Farag (1952-1982), published a pamphlet in the wake of Anwar Sadat's assassination called "The Neglected Duty", attempting to argue that Jihad was the sixth pillar of Islam but that corrupt ulema had hidden the fact. This conspiracy theory has very little support outside Islamic Jihad and a few other similar terrorist groups. Jihad is viewed as a requirement by some, but very few have classified it as a pillar, and the majority of Islamic scholars have rejected the idea.

Takfir wal-Hijra has also declared Jihad as a sixth pillar."

As I said - goat-herder logic.

 

[numinus]

Ive not passed judgement "on an entire people of a particular faith based". Ive passed judgement on a doctrine that only as small portion of a particuliar faith actualy follow the literal meaning. A distinction you couldnt possibly comprehend.

Oh I comprehend perfectly. The question is, do you?

You have passed judgement on the whole of islam (as a religion) based on the literal interpretation of a few goat-herders. No religion can go beyond absurd with only a literal interpretation of its holy texts.

 

[jb_1430]

The literal interpretation of the koran IS NOT the ideology of islam, in much the same way that the literal interpretation of the gospels IS NOT christian theology in its entirety.

LOLOL!!! It is for the Islamic fundamentalist.

It is for the islamic fundamentalist to..... what? Laugh themselves silly

The "literal interpretation of the koran" "IS... the ideology of islam" einstein.

And whether jihad is actually one of the pillars or not is of little differenc to the current situation. Even if it is not a pillar, still it is the second in goodness.

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.025

 

[jb_1430]

Oh I comprehend perfectly. The question is, do you?

You have passed judgement on the whole of islam (as a religion) based on the literal interpretation of a few goat-herders.

Whether we consider the interpretations written in the haddiths to be written by goatherders is of little relevance. Most all Muslims consider them to be from the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad.

 

[jb_1430]

You are aware of the five pillars, are you not? They form the basis of muslim life - INCLUDING JURISPRUDENCE, no?

And jurisprudence is an English word. In arabic its called fiqh, which has a very different meaning in Islam. For the Sunnis

There are different approaches to the methodology used in fiqh to derive sharia from the Islamic sources. The main methodologies are:

The four classical Sunni schools are, in chronological order: the Hanafi school, the Maliki school, the Shafi'i school and the Hanbali school. They represent the generally accepted Sunni authority for Islamic jurisprudence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh

For most Sunnis, you refer to 10 century old "interpretations", because newer interpretations are not allowed.

 

[numinus]

And jurisprudence is an English word. In arabic its called fiqh, which has a very different meaning in Islam. For the Sunnis



For most Sunnis, you refer to 10 century old "interpretations", because newer interpretations are not allowed.

Correct.

And the five pillars (not six), are the basis of ALL SCHOOLS OF JURISPRUDENCE (or fiqh, if you wish to sound more scholarly).

Notice how the lines to the hajj seem to be endless? You don't see that sort of line in terrorist recruitment, now, do you?

 

[numinus]

The "literal interpretation of the koran" "IS... the ideology of islam" einstein.

And whether jihad is actually one of the pillars or not is of little differenc to the current situation. Even if it is not a pillar, still it is the second in goodness.

Duh uh.

That is what hadith is for. Its catholic equivalent is a papal encyclical. The purpose is to expound on the holy text in a scholarly or academic manner.

Capice?

 

[jb_1430]

Sigh
You are aware of the five pillars, are you not? They form the basis of muslim life - INCLUDING JURISPRUDENCE, no?
From wiki:
"The term Sixth pillar of Islam

Not sure of your point. The fact that some Muslims feel so strongly about jihad that they consider it a sixth pillar, doesnt really help your arguement that they are not waging jihad because of Islamic doctrine. From your Wiki page-

Jihad is viewed as a requirement by some, but very few have classified it as a pillar,

Even though most dont consider jihad to be a sixth pillar, many believe it is still, none the less a duty. The Bukhari haddith is considered to be the most authoritative hadith (hadeeth) for the Sunnis. Put jihad into the search function at

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Here are the first 23 of 56 verses containing jihad. I wont skip any. Im not editing out any that give it any other meaning. Makes it pretty freakin hard to argue that jihad is an "inner struggle" with one self.

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."

Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."

Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."

Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah.

Volume 3, Book 31, Number 121:
...So, whoever was amongst the people who used to offer their prayers, will be called from the gate of the prayer; and whoever was amongst the people who used to participate in Jihad, will be called from the gate of Jihad;

Volume 3, Book 46, Number 724:
Allah's Apostle said, "A pious slave gets a double reward." Abu Huraira added: By Him in Whose Hands my soul is but for Jihad (i.e. holy battles),

Volume 4, Book 51, Number 33:
When 'Umar got a piece of land in Khaibar, he came to the Prophet saying, "I have got a piece of land, better than which I have never got. So what do you advise me regarding it?" The Prophet said, "If you wish you can keep it as an endowment to be used for charitable purposes." So, 'Umar gave the land in charity (i.e. as an endowments on the condition that the land would neither be sold nor given as a present, nor bequeathed, (and its yield) would be used for the poor, the kinsmen, the emancipation of slaves, Jihad, and for guests and travelers; and its administrator could eat in a reasonable just manner, and he also could feed his friends without intending to be wealthy by its means."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
I asked Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." I did not ask Allah's Apostle anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 42:
Allah's Apostle said, "There is no Hijra (i.e. migration) (from Mecca to Medina) after the Conquest (of Mecca), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:
A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 56:
,,,Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband 'Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Mu awiya.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 79:
On the day of the Conquest (of Mecca) the Prophet said, "There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately." (See Hadith No. 42)

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 81:
In the life-time of the Prophet, Abu Talha did not fast because of the Jihad, but after the Prophet died I never saw him without fasting except on 'Id-ul-Fitr and 'Id-ul-Aclha.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 85:
....He told us that Zaid bin Thabit had told him that Allah's Apostle had dictated to him the Divine Verse:
"Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives.' (4.95)
Zaid said, "Ibn-Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating to me that very Verse. On that Ibn Um Maktum said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I had power, I would surely take part in Jihad."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 87:
Allah's Apostle went towards the Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and saw the Emigrants and the Ansar digging in a very cold morning as they did not have slaves to do that for them. When he noticed their fatigue and hunger he said, "O Allah! The real life is that of the Here-after, (so please) forgive the Ansar and the Emigrants." In its reply the Emigrants and the Ansar said, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 88:
The Emigrants and the Ansar started digging the trench around Medina carrying the earth on their backs and saying, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will I carry on Jihad as long as we live."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 104:
The Prophet said, "Good will remain (as a permanent quality) in the foreheads of horses (for Jihad) till the Day of Resurrection, for they bring about either a reward (in the Hereafter) or booty (in this world."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 112:
The one for whom they are a source of reward, is he who keeps a horse for Allah's Cause (i.e. Jihad)

 

[jb_1430]

So how are terrorists getting made? Poor conditions and fear of foreign influences outside of personal, national, or regional control. There's a reason that cornered or wounded animals are more dangerous - think of it as a type of panic instinct.

Oh, and for the benefit of the low-brows in the forum, religious texts were never meant to be read like a grocery list. That's what hermeneutics is for. So you would do well to interpret them in the privacy of your own solitude

Hermeneutics was a concept developed in the West; however, that does not mean that it applies only to Western ideas.
To my knowledge, you've never taken any of our arguments seriously (could be wrong, but if you have I can't remember it). Is there some profound reason we should take you seriously?

JB, bewitched, there's one thing I've never gotten a cogent answer on. Where does your line of thinking take you? As pale rider would say, what's the logical conclusion?

Well, first we dont formulate policy based on the assumption that they want to attack us because of "Poor conditions and fear of foreign influences outside of personal, national, or regional control." We recognize that their motivation isnt going to just go away when their "conditions" improve, even if we did have the ability to improve those conditions. We are not going to reform Islam and can only look forward to the day when they do it. Why should you take me "seriously"? Well, I really dont care if you do but I do get irritaded when you declare me to be wrong, when you seem to not know what you are talking about regarding Islamic doctrine. And I dont make up shiit about stuff I know nothing about. Both you and Numi demonstrate your lack of knowledge with comments about hermeneutics. I couldnt help but laugh when he said, and you agreed that one simply "interpret them in the privacy of your own solitude" . If you only knew how much the absence of hermeneutics is at the root of Islams violent expression, and in my opinion the source of its solution for a modern world. I cant give the topic justice here but if you were really interested you could, but you wont.
The closest thing to hermeneutics in Islam is ijtihad.

Ijtihad is the independent or original interpretation of problems not covered by the Qur’an (Islam's holy book), the Hadith (traditions concerning the Prophet's life and utterances), and ijma' (scholarly consensus). In the early days of the Muslim community, every adequately qualified jurist had the right to exercise such original thinking.

Fearing too much change would weaken their political clout, the gates of ijtihad were closed to Sunni Muslims by religious scholars about 500 years ago. From then on, scholars and jurists were to rely only on the original meaning and earlier interpretations of the Qur’an and the Hadith.
http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?id=2579&lan=en&sid=1&sp=1

ONLY mujtahids can “interpret’ Islam. Not I in “privacy of your own solitude”. If your interested search on the “gates of ijtihad”, because they have been closed since the 10th century. Independent interpretation was closed off, reverting back to the 10th century and using only those interpretations where there was a consensus among the scholars. Now ijtihad is limited to only situations that are not covered in the Koran, haddiths and writing of the scholars up to the 10th century. So if you want approval to posses a nuclear bomb, which wasn’t covered, you need an interpretation. If you want to know what do do with the” idolaters where you find them”, you refer to the koran that says slay them. And that is what is taught to this day

There are (too make it simple) 4 types of Ijtihad:….
1 and 2 are closed and will remain closed. As for 3 and 4 they will always remain open.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5041

There are some Muslims who recognize the problem and solution-

When modernist Muslims claim that the door of ijtihad has been closed, they are lamenting the loss of the spirit of inquiry that was so spectacularly demonstrated by classical Islamic civilization at its peak. They are, in a sense, nostalgic for Ibn Sina' (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes), for al-Farabi, al-Biruni and al-Haytham -- scientists, philosophers and jurists of Islam's "Golden Age". Thus, modernist Muslims see ijtihad as the spirit of inquiry and desire for all forms of knowledge, not just religious and juristic, that needs to be revived to revitalize and restore Islamic civilization.
http://www.ijtihad.org/ijtihad.htm

Unfortunately in much of the muslim world those who share their opinions are branded apostates. Abu Zayd from Egypt is a good example. He was branded an apostate by Egypts highest court for essentially engaging in ijtihad in his writings regarding subjects that were already addressed in the 10th century.

"the defendant's proposition that the requirement of Christians and Jews to pay jizya (tax) constitutes a reversal of humanity's efforts to establish a better world is contrary to the divine verses… The verse on jizya, verse 29 of Sura al-Tawba, which the defendant opposes, is not subject to discussion. Further, the judgement stated that the denunciation by Abu Zayd of the permissibility of the ownership of slave girls, principle considered "religiously proven without doubt", is "contrary to all the divine texts which permit such provided that the required conditions are met"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasr_Abu_Zayd#A_promotion_refused

 

[jb_1430]

Duh uh.

That is what hadith is for. Its catholic equivalent is a papal encyclical. The purpose is to expound on the holy text in a scholarly or academic manner.

Capice?

Well, its not the purpose but the solution. Most Muslims and Islamic scholars believe that those who "expound on the holy text in a scholarly or academic manner", are apostates.

 

[jb_1430]

Correct.

And the five pillars (not six), are the basis of ALL SCHOOLS OF JURISPRUDENCE (or fiqh, if you wish to sound more scholarly).

Notice how the lines to the hajj seem to be endless? You don't see that sort of line in terrorist recruitment, now, do you?

I am relieved that the lines in terrorist recruitment are shorter than those for the hajj. And we could only be so lucky if Islam consisted of only the 5 pillars.