bewitched
Well-Known Member
where did you get this from. it's totally false.
jurisprudence is a Western philosophy not shared with Islam.
it would be nice if it was but it's not in application, practice or theology.
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Understanding the Enemy
- Thread starter bewitched
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where did you get this from. it's totally false.
jurisprudence is a Western philosophy not shared with Islam.
it would be nice if it was but it's not in application, practice or theology.
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From wiki:
"Jurisprudence is the theory and philosophy of law. Scholars of jurisprudence, or legal philosophers, hope to obtain a deeper understanding of the nature of law, of legal reasoning, legal systems and of legal institutions. As jurisprudence has developed, there are three main aspects with which scholarly writing engages:
Natural law is the idea that there are unchangeable laws of nature which govern us, and that our institutions should try to match this natural law.
Analytic jurisprudence asks questions like, "What is law?" "What are the criteria for legal validity?" or "What is the relationship between law and morality?" and other such questions that legal philosophers may engage.
Normative jurisprudence asks what law ought to be. It overlaps with moral and political philosophy, and includes questions of whether one ought to obey the law, on what grounds law-breakers might properly be punished, the proper uses and limits of regulation, how judges ought to decide cases.
Modern jurisprudence and philosophy of law is dominated today primarily by Western academics. The ideas of the Western legal tradition have become so pervasive throughout the world that it is tempting to see them as universal. Historically, however, many philosophers from other traditions have discussed the same questions, from ISLAMIC SCHOLARS to the ancient Greeks."
Ancient civilizations from asia have been contemplating jurisprudence when europeans were still living in caves, fyi.
Unfortunately the Islamic scholars came to very different answers to those questions, and unfortunately they still use the same answers they arrived at in the 10th century, to this day.
Unfortunately the Islamic scholars came to very different answers to those questions, and unfortunately they still use the same answers they arrived at in the 10th century, to this day.
Another sensational generalisation! Can't you see its these kind of generalisations that totally undermine your argument and expose your real views on Islam.
Another sensational generalisation! Can't you see its these kind of generalisations that totally undermine your argument and expose your real views on Islam.
Blah blah blah says you. Ive presented writings of those Islamic scholars to prove my point. Good freakin god man, I showed you the example Egyptian writer who was branded an apostate by Egypts highest religious authority for arguing we shouldnt tax Christians and Jews or own slave girls. What freakin more do you need to shake you from this self imposed blindness???
vyo476
Well-Known Member
Religious doctrine does not dictate human nature. So what if hermeneutics is a Western concept? That only means it was developed in the West. That does not mean that, in a personal capacity, it does not apply universally to all people. No religious institution is capable of really controlling what goes on in its adherents heads.
If these scholars of yours are telling people, "Islam is not meant to be interpreted personally. We are right and only we are right about what it all means," then that is the fault of them, the demagouges, not the doctrine itself. The doctrine itself remains interpretative, even if the most "highly respected" scholars of the faith say it isn't. Like I said, they can't directly control what goes on in the heads of others. They can try, and in some cases they can succeed, but ultimately they will still be incorrect.
And what then? If Islam is the motivation for terrorism - the only motivation, the biggest motivation, you name it - how do we beat terrorism?
You know, it's ironic. We agree on this, to a certain extent; although, I believe the reformation of Islam is occuring currently (refer to Reza Aslan's No god but God - he makes a convincing argument that the Islamic reformation is currently underway). Still, I think the process would probably be smoother if they didn't have the US and it's big guns looking over their shoulders.
If these scholars of yours are telling people, "Islam is not meant to be interpreted personally. We are right and only we are right about what it all means," then that is the fault of them, the demagouges, not the doctrine itself. The doctrine itself remains interpretative, even if the most "highly respected" scholars of the faith say it isn't. Like I said, they can't directly control what goes on in the heads of others. They can try, and in some cases they can succeed, but ultimately they will still be incorrect.
And what then? If Islam is the motivation for terrorism - the only motivation, the biggest motivation, you name it - how do we beat terrorism?
You know, it's ironic. We agree on this, to a certain extent; although, I believe the reformation of Islam is occuring currently (refer to Reza Aslan's No god but God - he makes a convincing argument that the Islamic reformation is currently underway). Still, I think the process would probably be smoother if they didn't have the US and it's big guns looking over their shoulders.
Except you believe the doctrine and absence of reformation is irrelevant to the current , worldwide campaign of Islamist terrorism, or even needed?, whereas I believe it is at the very root of the problem and desparately needed.
vyo476
Well-Known Member
I believe the doctrine is a tool used by those causing the problem (so at the center of the problem, but not the center of the problem) and that the reformation is happening now - the percentage of Muslims who do not participate in terrorist activities is an indication that the general direction of the faith has branched off from the direction set by violent demagouges and is also an indication that the faith is undergoing reformation. Of course I don't think that's irrelevant.
[/QUOTE]
But one cannot get around what Jefferson heard when he went with John Adams to wait upon Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785. When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, America’s two foremost envoys were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps this immunity from criticism you advocate is one of the reasons we are dealing with the same problem, 200 years later, and likely 200 years fron now.
You have arrived at your wit's end, I suppose.
There is no way bin laden, nasrallah and co are anywhere near 'islamic scholarship' being contemplated here. The peoples of the middle east are the recepients of an ancient cultural and philosophical patrimony that goes way back to the cradle of civilization itself. You would do well not to underestimate such a patrimony.
Dont you have an irrelevant wikipedia page to add to your comment? And I dont underestimate anything. The patrimony isnt only philosophical and leads many to believe that the Muslims are destined to rule the world by what allah has revealed.
vyo476
Well-Known Member
Sigh.
I'm not talking about an "immunity of criticism" for those who perpetrate acts of aggression or terrorism (quite the opposite). I'm talking "immunity of criticism" for the religion itself, which cannot be blamed (at least not in full) for the interpretations taken by its contemporaries.
The same religion that produced this:
Also produced this:
Both of these (wildly contrasting) statements came from Muslims. While Islam is the subject, Islam is not the cause of the statements - interpretation of Islam is the cause of the statements.
One literally interprets the doctrine, the other ignores it. Thats why I am critical of the doctrine. This immunity for Islamic doctrine is why people think only those who perpetrate acts of aggression or terrorism need to be reformed and the doctrine can remain the same.
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http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
Here are the first 23 of 56 verses containing jihad. I wont skip any. Im not editing out any that give it any other meaning. Makes it pretty freakin hard to argue that jihad is an "inner struggle" with one self.
Quote:
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr). Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah's cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."
Volume 1, Book 10, Number 505:
I asked the Prophet "Which deed is the dearest to Allah?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents" I again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause."
Volume 2, Book 15, Number 86:
The Prophet said, "No good deeds done on other days are superior to those done on these (first ten days of Dhul Hijja)." Then some companions of the Prophet said, "Not even Jihad?" He replied, "Not even Jihad, except that of a man who does it by putting himself and his property in danger (for Allah's sake) and does not return with any of those things."
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 547:
Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) ordered (a person) to collect Zakat, and that person returned and told him that Ibn Jamil, Khalid bin Al-Walid, and Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib had refused to give Zakat." The Prophet said, "What made Ibn Jamll refuse to give Zakat though he was a poor man, and was made wealthy by Allah and His Apostle ? But you are unfair in asking Zakat from Khalid as he is keeping his armor for Allah's Cause (for Jihad).
Volume 2, Book 26, Number 594:
The Prophet was asked, "Which is the best deed?" He said, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle." He was then asked, "Which is the next (in goodness)?" He said, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause."
Volume 3, Book 29, Number 84:
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He replied, "The best and the most superior Jihad (for women) is Hajj which is accepted by Allah.
Volume 3, Book 31, Number 121:
...So, whoever was amongst the people who used to offer their prayers, will be called from the gate of the prayer; and whoever was amongst the people who used to participate in Jihad, will be called from the gate of Jihad;
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 724:
Allah's Apostle said, "A pious slave gets a double reward." Abu Huraira added: By Him in Whose Hands my soul is but for Jihad (i.e. holy battles),
Volume 4, Book 51, Number 33:
When 'Umar got a piece of land in Khaibar, he came to the Prophet saying, "I have got a piece of land, better than which I have never got. So what do you advise me regarding it?" The Prophet said, "If you wish you can keep it as an endowment to be used for charitable purposes." So, 'Umar gave the land in charity (i.e. as an endowments on the condition that the land would neither be sold nor given as a present, nor bequeathed, (and its yield) would be used for the poor, the kinsmen, the emancipation of slaves, Jihad, and for guests and travelers; and its administrator could eat in a reasonable just manner, and he also could feed his friends without intending to be wealthy by its means."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 41:
I asked Allah's Apostle, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the best deed?" He replied, "To offer the prayers at their early stated fixed times." I asked, "What is next in goodness?" He replied, "To be good and dutiful to your parents." I further asked, what is next in goodness?" He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." I did not ask Allah's Apostle anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 42:
Allah's Apostle said, "There is no Hijra (i.e. migration) (from Mecca to Medina) after the Conquest (of Mecca), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 43:
(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 44:
A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed." Then he added, "Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?" The man said, "But who can do that?" Abu- Huraira added, "The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders bout (for grazing) tied in a long rope."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 56:
,,,Later on it happened that she went out in the company of her husband 'Ubada bin As-Samit who went for Jihad and it was the first time the Muslims undertook a naval expedition led by Mu awiya.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 79:
On the day of the Conquest (of Mecca) the Prophet said, "There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately." (See Hadith No. 42)
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 81:
In the life-time of the Prophet, Abu Talha did not fast because of the Jihad, but after the Prophet died I never saw him without fasting except on 'Id-ul-Fitr and 'Id-ul-Aclha.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 85:
....He told us that Zaid bin Thabit had told him that Allah's Apostle had dictated to him the Divine Verse:
"Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives.' (4.95)
Zaid said, "Ibn-Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating to me that very Verse. On that Ibn Um Maktum said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I had power, I would surely take part in Jihad."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 87:
Allah's Apostle went towards the Khandaq (i.e. Trench) and saw the Emigrants and the Ansar digging in a very cold morning as they did not have slaves to do that for them. When he noticed their fatigue and hunger he said, "O Allah! The real life is that of the Here-after, (so please) forgive the Ansar and the Emigrants." In its reply the Emigrants and the Ansar said, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 88:
The Emigrants and the Ansar started digging the trench around Medina carrying the earth on their backs and saying, "We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will I carry on Jihad as long as we live."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 104:
The Prophet said, "Good will remain (as a permanent quality) in the foreheads of horses (for Jihad) till the Day of Resurrection, for they bring about either a reward (in the Hereafter) or booty (in this world."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 112:
The one for whom they are a source of reward, is he who keeps a horse for Allah's Cause (i.e. Jihad)
