Torture; SOMEone's Gotta Pay!!

[BigRob]

Torture doesn't get actionable information at Gitmo or Abu Gareb. Especially months or years after original confinement. It just feeds the perversion of the torturer. From the information available, it also seems to be contagious.

I've never accepted that the ends justify the means. I believe the means used define the nature of the individual or country using them.

We do not torture at GITMO. Abu Grahib was not a good situation, I will agree, and it should be telling that those responsible were punished for their actions.

 

[BigRob]

What a weird idea. Don't you realize that mindless obedience leads to all kinds of nasty stuff like genocide and torture. Remember the Nazis? My Lai? "I was just following order!"????

You don't have to have mindless obedience, but you do not need to be sparking debates over policies we do not even employ and acting like we do.

How are we supposed to maintain an army if every operation ever conducted has to cleared through a minister of morality? We mind as well just pack our bags now.

Daniel P. Mannix wrote THE HISTORY OF TORTURE and at the end he noted that physical torture had rarely been of value down through history, in fact it tended to harden the resolve of enemy soldiers who would rather die fighting than risk being captured. Allowing ourselves to be brought down the lowest common denominator of morality assures our loss no matter who wins the war.

I don't know how many times I can say this, but we do not torture anyone.

 

[foggedinn]

We do not torture at GITMO. Abu Grahib was not a good situation, I will agree, and it should be telling that those responsible were punished for their actions.

Shortly after the Abu Garib pictures became public, I watched a news broadcast where Donald Rumsfeld claimed full responsiblity for what had happened there. In a sense, what he had done was noble. He became a shield for the president. He fell on his sword for his commander-in-chief.

At the time, I wondered if he understood the depth of the ocean he had just jumped into. Whether he knew it or not, understood it or not, believed it or not; God heard him. There is only one person responsible for what happened at Abu Garib. He has not been punished. And many have been punished in his place.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Plus it's very difficult to go after a past President anyway with all his layers of cover.

....And, a lifetime of endless "passes".​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

We already say we do not torture people, and no one believes it. They instead demand to know the techniques so they can make up their minds.

oooooooooooooooooo.....yeah, how tragic....that there are actually Americans who want the facts, before deciding a course-of-action!!!

It's downright un-American. ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

We do not torture at GITMO.

Yeah....right.....and, there was no effort to cover-up the Watergate break-in, either.

That'd be un-Presidential. ​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I don't know how many times I can say this, but we do not torture anyone.

Yeah.....Rummy's got-your-back, on that one, right? ​

"Rumsfeld signed off on almost all of the techniques on Dec. 2, 2002. At the time, the military's interrogation of the so-called 20th hijacker, Mohammed al-Khatani, had recently begun at Guantánamo -- an interrogation in which Rumsfeld was personally involved. Al-Khatani was stripped naked, isolated, given intravenous fluids and forced to urinate on himself, exercised to exhaustion, called a homosexual, forced to wear a mask and dance, leashed and made to perform dog tricks. His interrogations lasted 18 to 20 hours a day for 48 of 54 days."

 

[BigRob]

Shortly after the Abu Garib pictures became public, I watched a news broadcast where Donald Rumsfeld claimed full responsiblity for what had happened there. In a sense, what he had done was noble. He became a shield for the president. He fell on his sword for his commander-in-chief.

At the time, I wondered if he understood the depth of the ocean he had just jumped into. Whether he knew it or not, understood it or not, believed it or not; God heard him. There is only one person responsible for what happened at Abu Garib. He has not been punished. And many have been punished in his place.

The people responsible for the actions at this prisons were the soldiers who carried them out with no orders to do so. You make it sound like Bush ordered the prisoners to be tortured as they were, he did not.

 

[BigRob]

oooooooooooooooooo.....yeah, how tragic....that there are actually Americans who want the facts, before deciding a course-of-action!!!

It's downright un-American. ​

Give me a good reason as to why you feel you need to know and understand interrogation methods, and how this does not give them away to the world?

The facts have already been disclosed as much as they can be without giving techniques away, you just (as per usual) think there is something more, or that someone is lying.

 

[top gun]

....And, a lifetime of endless "passes".​

We are in agreement on what we would probably "like" to see.

I wish things were easily made different. I understand that no administration is clairvoyant and honest mistakes are always made especially in War related decisions. And I don't want our Presidents hounded forever for every single decision.

However I think there is a line you cross when an illegal cruelty or even worse life & death pattern of a dishonest President & Vice President is documented.

I hope that at the least with a new administration of a different Party more facts will come out than already have and the American people, even Bush supporters, are able to say many things were very, very wrong to do.

Maybe a little truthfully tarnish will prevent a future President from playing so loose & free with the truth in either Party.

One can only hope.

 

[The Scotsman]

I find this all quite fascinating! I remember the febrile cries for vengeance following 9/11, the near hysterical ranting and wailing for revenge echoed over the whole media from all Americans from all classes and all walks of life. Well, you got what you asked for. However, this vengeance comes at a cost, in lives (wars do!) and money and ethics and its all become a bit inconvenient now and the intellectual middle classes....well I guess they find the war an embarrassment now!

So all those people that were thrust into the pursuit of these terrorists on behalf of the people of America are now having their actions and methods second guessed or called into question - I believe you call this Monday-morning quarterback syndrome!...........

 

[foggedinn]

The people responsible for the actions at this prisons were the soldiers who carried them out with no orders to do so. You make it sound like Bush ordered the prisoners to be tortured as they were, he did not.

Bush isn't the one who claimed responsibility, Donald Rumsfeld did. As SecDef at the time, he had full authority to claim that responsibility and he did so.

If it appeared I was claiming Bush was responsible, let me clear it up. Donald Rumsfeld is responsible. He is the only one who should be punished, regardless of who committed the acts and regardless that they did so without orders.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I don't know how many times I can say this, but we do not torture anyone.

Then how is it that the high-ranking officers cited in post #34 say that we do torture?

 

[BigRob]

Bush isn't the one who claimed responsibility, Donald Rumsfeld did. As SecDef at the time, he had full authority to claim that responsibility and he did so.

If it appeared I was claiming Bush was responsible, let me clear it up. Donald Rumsfeld is responsible. He is the only one who should be punished, regardless of who committed the acts and regardless that they did so without orders.

Someone had to take responsibility sure, but that hardly means that he was issuing directives to those soldiers to do anything that they were doing.

 

[BigRob]

Then how is it that the high-ranking officers cited in post #34 say that we do torture?

A few instances of waterboarding (which I do not consider torture) before the process was ended hardly means we torture anyone. Further, the story is unable to even show any connection between any of these officers and any actual interrogation. Leads to the question of if they were even informed of what was actual going on.

"Tough" interrogation techniques are not often carried out and involve sleep deprivation and things of that sort. Nothing like other countries do.

As always, you can always find people on each side of the argument with credibility, if I paraded a group of high ranking officers who say we do not torture does that change your mind? Most likely not.