The best health care in the world

[pocketfullofshells]

Since when does anyone have a "right" to the products of another individuals labor?

Name a goverment in the last 2000 years that did not ....

 

[Dr.Who]

Funny how you are so adept in finding trash on the Obamas, but you can't identify reliable, factual information.

Patient Dumping | Fraud | Office of Inspector General | U.S. ... oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/cmp/patient_dumping.aspCached - Similar-

Neither can you.

You stated that patient dumping was common and resulted in people being turning out onto the street after a few days in the hospital when they can't pay.

Your link provided three, a grand total of three, cases for all of 2011 in all of the US. Of those three none of the patients were turned out onto the street. None of them had been admitted first either.

You have failed to support any of the points in your statement. Your link does not show it to be common, or involving the streets, or involving people who had been admitted.

 

[Dr.Who]

Name a goverment in the last 2000 years that did not ....

? A government that did not what?

 

[Dr.Who]

Is our system the best in the world?

Lets explore that:

The first bit of evidence is the WHO report.

That report is eleven years old. And even at the time it was deeply flawed, used incomplete, skewed data, and was grossly biased. It was never worth the paper it was written on and is today outdated.

Lets just throw that one away.

Does anyone want to offer any other studies? I would suggest offering the study done by the Commonwealth Fund. After spending last night reading studies it is the only other study I have found. Wiki also only lists just the two studies and no other.

(btw, did you know that the US has the highest smoking rate in the whole world? Did you know that if you take the WHO rank and adjust for smoking related deaths our ranking jumps from 37th to between 7th and 9th. Did you know that the US has the highest obesity rate in the world? If you adjust for both smoking and obesity what would our rank be? And that new rank would still include the grossly biased and political effect of our ""unequal distribution" of services. So even with our unequal system we would still rank in the top, oh say, 3, just to be fair. If we looked ONLY at the question "Do people who are sick get better?" then there is no question at all that we are number 1)

 

[GenSeneca]

? A government that did not what?

He's confusing the concept of paying taxes in retrun for services for the practice of utilizing government to redistribute the nations wealth. Since both are funded by "taxes" he draws no distinction.

The question I was asking, a question he won't answer, is why he believes he has a "right" to someone elses money... Why someone else should be forced to pay for services that Pocket receives.

To draw an analogy, when I have someone cut my grass, I pay them for the service. I pay taxes in return for services that are provided by government, e.g., police, fire, military, courts, etc. Pocket is demanding that I should have to pay for someone to cut HIS grass and then further complains that I'm not also paying to have someone landscape his yard and install a marble fountain.

When I point out that he has no right to put a gun to my head (government) and confiscate (taxation) the products of my labor for his own personal benefit (greed), he lashes out with fallacies and emotional appeals.

 

[PLC1]

Is our system the best in the world?

Lets explore that:

The first bit of evidence is the WHO report.

That report is eleven years old. And even at the time it was deeply flawed, used incomplete, skewed data, and was grossly biased. It was never worth the paper it was written on and is today outdated.

Lets just throw that one away.

Does anyone want to offer any other studies? I would suggest offering the study done by the Commonwealth Fund. After spending last night reading studies it is the only other study I have found. Wiki also only lists just the two studies and no other.

(btw, did you know that the US has the highest smoking rate in the whole world? Did you know that if you take the WHO rank and adjust for smoking related deaths our ranking jumps from 37th to between 7th and 9th. Did you know that the US has the highest obesity rate in the world? If you adjust for both smoking and obesity what would our rank be? And that new rank would still include the grossly biased and political effect of our ""unequal distribution" of services. So even with our unequal system we would still rank in the top, oh say, 3, just to be fair. If we looked ONLY at the question "Do people who are sick get better?" then there is no question at all that we are number 1)

Smoking rates by nation

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Gallup first asked Americans about their smoking habits more than 60 years ago, and recent Gallup polling finds Americans reporting among the lowest smoking rates ever measured (24%). The percentage of Americans saying they have smoked cigarettes in the past week did not drop to approximately one-quarter of the population until the mid-1990s. Gallup has asked respondents in more than 90 countries around the globe a similar question regarding their smoking habits, and the data indicate a median percentage of 22%. This result is statistically similar to the U.S. rate, but in some individual countries this figure ranges from a fraction of the U.S. responses to more than 40%.

Seems we're near the middle.


It seems you're correct about the obesity rate, however.

which is unfortunate.

Maybe if we elect Christy, and he loses a hundred pounds or so as an example.. no, if the multitude of ills associated with obesity won't make them lose weight, nothing will.

 

[Dr.Who]

Seems we're near the middle.
.

I was surprised to see what you said since I had seen that we have the highest rate in two different sources one of which was very reliable.

It turns out that it was my memory that was ever so slightly off. I always try to post accurate information and I apologise to the whole forum:

"This is not a remote possibility in the United States, which had the highest level of cigarette consumption per capita in the developed world over a 50-year period ending in the mid-80’s "
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/vie...fhLNxCA#search="longevity united states rank"

It seems that our highest rate ended in the 80's which accounts for why your source said that we presently do not have the highest rate.

The reason the past smoking rate is still so important is that an aging population is still reaping the ill health effects of past smoking. We are coming into a time period now where we will be seeing the cancers and other lung diseases from this past behavior.

Smoking still accounts for the most deaths compared to other causes. (I hope I quoted that perfectly)

And regardless of all that the other source still said that if we adjust for smoking illnesses our ranking will leap to between 7th and 9th.

 

[PLC1]

I was surprised to see what you said since I had seen that we have the highest rate in two different sources one of which was very reliable.

It turns out that it was my memory that was ever so slightly off. I always try to post accurate information and I apologise to the whole forum:

"This is not a remote possibility in the United States, which had the highest level of cigarette consumption per capita in the developed world over a 50-year period ending in the mid-80’s "
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/vie...fhLNxCA#search="longevity united states rank"

It seems that our highest rate ended in the 80's which accounts for why your source said that we presently do not have the highest rate.

The reason the past smoking rate is still so important is that an aging population is still reaping the ill health effects of past smoking. We are coming into a time period now where we will be seeing the cancers and other lung diseases from this past behavior.

Smoking still accounts for the most deaths compared to other causes. (I hope I quoted that perfectly)

And regardless of all that the other source still said that if we adjust for smoking illnesses our ranking will leap to between 7th and 9th.

Lots of Americans quit smoking when it became undeniable that tobacco causes a whole host of diseases. It used to be that around 50% of adults were addicted to nicotine. Now, it's less than half that, and still declining. Kids don't see smoking as "cool" like they used to. Smoking has been outlawed in most public buildings, moreover, cigarettes are no longer advertised on TV. Good news!

I don't think we can attribute all of our high health care costs to smoking. It doesn't help, of course, but people smoke in other countries that pay half or less per capita than we do. A lot of our expenses lie in our inefficient system.

Yes, I've heard that smoking causes more deaths than anything else. There is no question that it causes more death and human misery than all of the other drugs combined, legal and illegal.

 

[Dr.Who]

I don't think we can attribute all of our high health care costs to smoking. It doesn't help, of course, but people smoke in other countries that pay half or less per capita than we do. A lot of our expenses lie in our inefficient system.

Yes, I've heard that smoking causes more deaths than anything else. There is no question that it causes more death and human misery than all of the other drugs combined, legal and illegal.

No certainly not ALL the costs difference. But clearly if more deaths (and presumably illnesses that precede death) have smoking as a factor then it must be a pretty large player in the costs and longevity of our people.

Which is no doubt why the health economists (or whatever they were called) said that our ranking would move from 37 to around 8th if an adjustment were made for the ill effects from smoking in various countries.

 

[Openmind]

Neither can you.

You stated that patient dumping was common and resulted in people being turning out onto the street after a few days in the hospital when they can't pay.

Your link provided three, a grand total of three, cases for all of 2011 in all of the US. Of those three none of the patients were turned out onto the street. None of them had been admitted first either.

You have failed to support any of the points in your statement. Your link does not show it to be common, or involving the streets, or involving people who had been admitted.

MAYBE only three cases were REPORTED, or fully investigated, however a lot more passed unreported because, precisely, it is the underprivileges, the elderly, the disabled, the drug addicts, those unable to advocate for themselves that are targetted.

And this is the recognized problem with EMTLA. . . it is a law without "teeth," not enough funding either to investigate or to punish the offenders with penalites high enough that it would make "dumping" less cost effective for them.

If you looked at all the links I provided (and they are far from all that exist), you will see that even WELL KNOWN, CHARITABLE hospital practice the dumping of patients. . .including "Mercy" hospital!

What a joke!

 

[Dr.Who]

MAYBE only three cases were REPORTED, or fully investigated, however a lot more passed unreported because, precisely, it is the underprivileges, the elderly, the disabled, the drug addicts, those unable to advocate for themselves that are targetted.

And this is the recognized problem with EMTLA. . . it is a law without "teeth," not enough funding either to investigate or to punish the offenders with penalites high enough that it would make "dumping" less cost effective for them.

If you looked at all the links I provided (and they are far from all that exist), you will see that even WELL KNOWN, CHARITABLE hospital practice the dumping of patients. . .including "Mercy" hospital!

What a joke!

You have yet to give even one example of a single person in recent history that was dumped on the street and have only offered conjecture that it must happen a lot.

 

[Openmind]

You have yet to give even one example of a single person in recent history that was dumped on the street and have only offered conjecture that it must happen a lot.

I did provide that link. Obviously, you didn't find it necessary to go look at it!

So, here it is in so many words (although only for 2010 and 2011, since you requested RECENT exemple). And, by the way, this ONLY represents the few hospitals that got caught!

2011
08-29-2011
Jewish Hospital & St. Mary's HealthCare (Jewish Hospital), Kentucky, agreed to pay $42,500 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that Jewish Hospital failed to provide a medical screening examination or stabilizing treatment to a patient that presented to two of its emergency departments (ED). The patient was suffering from a wrist laceration with arterial bleeding. Emergency Medical Services (EMS) transported the patient to two of Jewish Hospital's ED's that are located on the same property. Both ED's instructed the EMS to transport the patient to another hospital.
08-17-2011
Santa Clara Valley Medical Center (Santa Clara), California, agreed to pay $48,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that Santa Clara failed to provide a medical screening examination or stabilizing treatment to a patient that presented to its emergency department (ED) after receiving a referral from a nearby urgent care facility which diagnosed him with severe abnormal hemoglobin results. It was suspected that the patient had some sort of internal bleeding. Upon arrival to Santa Clara's ED, the patient showed a nurse the referral papers and complained of dizziness, blurred vision, and fatigue. The patient was categorized as non-emergent and waited in the waiting room for seven hours. The patient expired in the ED.
07-08-2011
Dallas County Hospital District d/b/a Parkland Health and Hospital System (Parkland), California, agreed to pay $50,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that Parkland failed to provide an appropriate medical screening examination to a patient that presented with an emergency medical condition. Specifically, Parkland failed to provide a physician ordered EKG or intravenous monitoring to a 58-year old cardiac diabetic patient. The patient expired of a heart attack.
2010
12-23-2010
North Fulton Hospital (North Fulton), Georgia, agreed to pay $40,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that North Fulton failed to provide a medical screening examination or stabilizing treatment to a patient that presented to its emergency department (ED). The patient was 30 weeks pregnant and reported with complaints of labor pain to North Fulton's ED upon the advice of her physician.
11-22-2010
Mobile Infirmary (MI), Alabama, agreed to pay $45,000 to resolve its liability for civil monetary penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that MI refused to accept an appropriate transfer to its hospital of a patient in need of specialized capabilities available at MI. The refusal of the transfer request delayed care and treatment for a patient's gastrointestinal bleed. Two hours after the request to MI, the patient was finally transferred to another hospital approximately 60 miles away. En route, the patient's condition deteriorated and the patient had to be transported by helicopter to the receiving hospital. The patient subsequently died that day.
11-16-2010
Houston Northwest Medical Center (HNMC), Texas, agreed to pay $40,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that HNMC failed to provide appropriate medical screening or stabilizing treatment for a pregnant female who came to HNMC's emergency department while having labor contractions.
11-04-2010
November 4, 2010 - Port St. Lucie Hospital (PSLH), Florida, agreed to pay $19,000 to resolve its liability for civil monetary penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that PSLH refused to accept an appropriate transfer to its hospital of a patient in need of specialized capabilities available at PSLH. Specifically, the OIG alleged that PSLH refused to accept the patient based on an erroneous belief that the patient was uninsured. A second transfer request transfer was made the next day and the same nurse at PSLH again denied transfer.
09-07-2010
Providence Hospital, Alabama, agreed to pay $45,000 to resolve its liability for CMPs under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that Providence refused to accept an appropriate transfer to its hospital of a patient in need of specialized capabilities available at Providence. The patient's condition deteriorated and, as a result, the patient was transported by helicopter to another hospital and died that day.
06-14-2010
University of Chicago Medical Center (UCMC), Illinois, agreed to pay $50,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that UCMC failed to provide a medical screening examination or stabilizing treatment to a patient that presented to its emergency department (ED). The liability stems from UCMC failing to log the patient into their system after he presented via ambulance. The patient was left in the waiting area. Approximately three hours later, the patient's daughter approached the triage desk and informed the ED staff that her father still had not been seen. The triage nurse approached the patient and saw that he was non-responsive and had rigor mortis. The ED physician, upon examining the patient, pronounced him dead.
04-27-2010
Olive View UCLA Medical Center (Olive View), California, agreed to pay $25,000 to resolve its liability for Civil Monetary Penalties under the patient dumping statute. The OIG alleged that Olive View's emergency department (ED) did not provide an appropriate medical screening examination (MSE) or stabilizing treatment to a patient that presented to its ED. The liability stems from a 33-year-old patient who presented to Olive View's ED complaining of chest pains. After waiting for over three hours without receiving a MSE, the patient exited the ED, collapsed outside of the building, and despite attempts to resuscitate him, was pronounced dead within minutes.
2009
09-29-2009
Kaiser Foundation Hospitals - Santa Clara (Kaiser), California, agreed to pay $100,000 for allegedly violating the Patient Anti-Dumping Statute on two separate occasions. On both occasions, Kaiser failed to provide appropriate medical screening examinations and stabilizing treatment. On the first occasion, a 15-year old presented to Kaiser's emergency department (ED) doubled over, crying and complaining of severe abdominal pain. Kaiser discharged the patient and sent her to a pediatric physician group on the hospital's campus. On the second occasion, a 12-year old boy returned to Kaiser's ED after being sent home the night before. He presented with a high fever, continued pain and was lethargic with swollen eyes and face. He was also discharged to the pediatric physician group on the hospital's campus. Over six hours after he presented to the ED, he was admitted to Kaiser's Pediatric Intensive Care Unit where he died the next morning from staphylococcal sepsis.

Another quote, demonstrating the impact of the patient dumping law (which, as we already cover, is NOT very effective to start with) on the hospitals and on the price of health care insurance for all the insured:

(from Wikepedia) The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government. Because of this, the law has been criticized by some as an unfunded mandate.[5] Similarly, it has attracted controversy for its impacts on hospitals, and in particular, for its possible contributions to an emergency medical system that is "overburdened, underfunded and highly fragmented."[6] More than half of all emergency room care in the U.S. now goes uncompensated[citation needed]. Hospitals write off such care as charity or bad debt for tax purposes. Increasing financial pressures on hospitals in the period since EMTALA's passage have caused consolidations and closures, so the number of emergency rooms is decreasing despite increasing demand for emergency care.[7] There is also debate about the extent to which EMTALA has led to cost-shifting and higher rates for insured or paying hospital patients, thereby contributing to the high overall rate of medical inflation in the U.S.

 

[Dr.Who]

If you looked at all the links I provided (and they are far from all that exist), you will see that even WELL KNOWN, CHARITABLE hospital practice the dumping of patients. . .including "Mercy" hospital!
!

I only saw ONE link and it was wrong. I fixed it and went to that site which is how I know that they only had a grand total of three examples that did not meet your definition for the whole of 2011.

Let me help. I found one case in 2007 and five in 2006. These involved homeless people that should have been discharged to shelters but were instead let out in front of shelters.

This appears to be a "trend" that has ended but if we assume that it occurred at a rate of 3 per year from 1960 through 2007 then it would have happened about 150 times total. Additionally every case seems to have happened on Los Angeles meaning that it does not represent any sort of national profile and is not representative of american health care in general. It is also a practice that is done by the LA police department when they release homeless people from their lockups.

The example you give of Mercy does not meet your own criteria for dumping since they patients were not put out on the streets. Mercy was found to "not given proper medical screening exams or were inappropriately transferred to other health care centers."

 

[Openmind]

I only saw ONE link and it was wrong. I fixed it and went to that site which is how I know that they only had a grand total of three examples that did not meet your definition for the whole of 2011.

Let me help. I found one case in 2007 and five in 2006. These involved homeless people that should have been discharged to shelters but were instead let out in front of shelters.

This appears to be a "trend" that has ended but if we assume that it occurred at a rate of 3 per year from 1960 through 2007 then it would have happened about 150 times total. Additionally every case seems to have happened on Los Angeles meaning that it does not represent any sort of national profile and is not representative of american health care in general. It is also a practice that is done by the LA police department when they release homeless people from their lockups.

Did you look at post #102, including the addition I made to it?

Can you say that those "occurences" from 2011 and 2010 are not true?

 

[Dr.Who]

I did provide that link. Obviously, you didn't find it necessary to go look at it!

So, here it is in so many words (although only for 2010 and 2011, since you requested RECENT exemple). And, by the way, this ONLY represents the few hospitals that got caught!

I read the thee examples from 2011 and in zero of them were the patients dumped on the street. You can't very well support your claim that patients are dumped on the street when all your examples from this year are about patients that were transferred to other hospitals.


Since you are so insistent that you have provided examples I went on and read the examples from 2010 even though I was pretty sure it was going to be a waste of my time. And yes, it was a waste of my time. In none of the examples you gave were any of the people discharged to the street. Just about every one of them was sent to another medical facility.

You have completely failed to support your claim that any patient anywhere has ever been dumped on a street. I did the work and found that a long time ago it used to happen in what appears to be small numbers.

It appears that all the facts you use to support all of your opinions on politics are wrong. When you start with wrong date you will arrive at wrong conclusions. The very first step is to have the right data.