Summary of reasons not to nationalize health care

[ProudLefty]

We as a society get to decide how we as a society want to do things. This discussion isn't about unalienable rights, its about how we decide we wish to live.

As a group, we want EMT services, police services, fire services, and postal services. We want schools, we want highways, we want parks and recreation. We want airports and seaports and public transportation in urban areas.

There are many things we have decided we want, and we have them. There is nothing in the US Constitution about National Parks. We just decided we want them, so we have them.

Its not complicated.

We have also decided we want health care for our children and for our elderly. Yes, there are some who want to back away from that, but at least for now we have decided that is something America is prepared to do.

However, none of this has anything to do with the US Constitution. It has all to do with how we wish to live as a nation.

We can slide into second-tier status, or we can continue as a top-tier nation. Its our choice.

 

[TruthSeeker]

We as a society get to decide how we as a society want to do things. This discussion isn't about unalienable rights, its about how we decide we wish to live.

As a group, we want EMT services, police services, fire services, and postal services. We want schools, we want highways, we want parks and recreation. We want airports and seaports and public transportation in urban areas.

There are many things we have decided we want, and we have them. There is nothing in the US Constitution about National Parks. We just decided we want them, so we have them.

Its not complicated.

We have also decided we want health care for our children and for our elderly. Yes, there are some who want to back away from that, but at least for now we have decided that is something America is prepared to do.

However, none of this has anything to do with the US Constitution. It has all to do with how we wish to live as a nation.

We can slide into second-tier status, or we can continue as a top-tier nation. Its our choice.

I absolutely agree with you, at least when you are talking about health care.

 

[Openmind]

I absolutely agree with you, at least when you are talking about health care.

Ditto.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

This very common argument made by the "healthcare for profit" people is flawed.

The BEST analogy that can be made about the American health care system is the following:

Automobiles are available for everybody. Some can afford to drive Cadillac Escalades. Some can only afford to drive Kias. And others drive rusty 1990 Chevy Cavaliers.

Yeah.....that's all anyone needs.....access.....

*​

BILL MOYERS: But you had, all these years, seen premiums rising. People purged from the rolls, people who couldn't afford the health care that Cigna and other companies were offering. This is the first time you came face to face with it?

WENDELL POTTER: Yeah, it was. You know, certainly, I knew people, and I talked to people who were uninsured. But when you're in the executive offices, when you're getting prepared for a call with an analyst, in the financial medium, what you think about are the numbers. You don't think about individual people. You think about the numbers, and whether or not you're going to meet Wall Street's expectations. That's what you think about, at that level. And it helps to think that way. That's why you-- that enables you to stay there, if you don't really think that you're talking about and dealing with real human beings.

*​

BILL MOYERS: We obtained a copy of the game plan that was adopted by the industry's trade association, AHIP. And it spells out the industry strategies in gold letters. It says, "Highlight horror stories of government-run systems." What was that about?

WENDELL POTTER: The industry has always tried to make Americans think that government-run systems are the worst thing that could possibly happen to them, that if you even consider that, you're heading down on the slippery slope towards socialism. So they have used scare tactics for years and years and years, to keep that from happening. If there were a broader program like our Medicare program, it could potentially reduce the profits of these big companies. So that is their biggest concern.

*​

BILL MOYERS: So, the more of my premium that goes to my health claims, pays for my medical coverage, the less money the company makes.
WENDELL POTTER: That's right. Exactly right.

BILL MOYERS: So they want to reverse that. They don't want my premium to go for my health care, right?

WENDELL POTTER: Exactly right. They--

BILL MOYERS: Where does it go?

WENDELL POTTER: Well, a big chunk of it goes into shareholders' pockets. It's returned to them as part of the investment to them. It goes into the exorbitant salaries that a lot of the executives make. It goes into paying sales, marketing, and underwriting expenses. So a lot of it goes to pay those kinds of administrative functions. Overhead.

 

[GenSeneca]

Look, I don't agree with most of what the leftists believe in, and I abhor the hypocrisy and the lies and the childish behaviors of the leftists, but there is a thing called "compassion" and there is a thing called "helping your fellow man". Decent health care is one of the most basic of human needs, after food and water. NOBODY in this country should be without QUALITY health care.

Compassion comes from volitional consent, not coercion.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Compassion comes from volitional consent, not coercion.

I am sure you would rather watch the sick beg in the street ....just so long as you don't have to help them...unless your having a good day or something...

I mean its one thing to be really sick and need help and not have the funds to pay for it...but thats nothing next to paying a bit extra in taxes for something you don't personally use right?

By the way I don't think my money should be used pay the military to Defend you...only me...so Why am I forced to Defend you? I could care less if someone bombs your area.

 

[ProudLefty]

I am sure you would rather watch the sick beg in the street ....just so long as you don't have to help them...unless your having a good day or something...

I mean its one thing to be really sick and need help and not have the funds to pay for it...but thats nothing next to paying a bit extra in taxes for something you don't personally use right?

By the way I don't think my money should be used pay the military to Defend you...only me...so Why am I forced to Defend you? I could care less if someone bombs your area.

My kids are all through with school. Why should I pay school taxes? I believe in peace, not war; why can't my tax money be used to build peace and not to wage wars? I never drive in Idaho. Why should my tax money be used to build roads in Idaho? I like the bagpipes; why can't we require all youth to learn to play the bagpipes?

Why can't we as a society decide our minimal standard of living and be sure that is available to all? I understand not everyone agrees with that idea, but there is no reason we couldn't do that, if we wanted to, right?

 

[Openmind]

Compassion comes from volitional consent, not coercion.

Is that what your own experience is? That's great! That means, you have never encounter someone in need that you were not able to help with your own resources.

If a mother came to you with her child in need of a liver transplant, and she doesn't have insurance, and she doesn't have the money, you would, without thinking twice, voluntarely commit to pay for the child's liver transplant as soon as a liver becomes available, right? Whether or not you have the money in the bank!

You know what if we lived in Eden, this would probably be true! Heck, no one would need liver transplant!

But we live "EAST of Eden!"

And it seems that the very same people who believe it is "unamerican" to pay a little more in tax to save their country from bancrupcy, also find it "unamerican" to pay for other people's health care, or anything else for that matter (exept for big defense contractors and big armement contractors, and big wars to "defend" their country against a threat 6000 miles away!)

Well, I prefer to help someone in my country, right here, in my State, in my County "defend" the life of his/her child, his/her parent by contributing to universal health care than I do to "defend" the interest of the big war monger industry.

Do I have that choice? Can the portion of my taxes that goes to the Pentagon, or that goes to big oil, or to big farming, or to Fox New's travelling expenses go toward my neighbor's child?

 

[GenSeneca]

Coercion: the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.​

Using the threat of force to demand that I "help my fellow man" is not an act of compassion but coercion.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Coercion: the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.​

Using the threat of force to demand that I "help my fellow man" is not an act of compassion but coercion.

fine...I will ask the sick kid if he cares

 

[Mr. Shaman]

My kids are all through with school. Why should I pay school taxes?

It would be considered a long-term inve$tment in your Country.​

Downside

There are no guarantees (for "conservatives") that access, to these funds, is limited to Anglo-children; only.​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Coercion: the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.​

Using the threat of force to demand that I "help my fellow man" is not an act of compassion but coercion.

I'm sure Al Capone was thinking the same thing....while the IRS was haulin' his ass off-to-prison.​

 

[Openmind]

Coercion: the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance.​

Using the threat of force to demand that I "help my fellow man" is not an act of compassion but coercion.

Ever watched "John Q?"

Any thought about it?

Was that cooercion? YES!

Did you applaud the guy?

I sure did!

I am being coerced to pay a "defense contractor" $70.000 a year, tax free to peel potatoes in Afghanistan! On a two year contract! With 3 "vacation" trips all paid for back to the States during the duration of that contract.

You know what, I don't like it! I bet there are plenty of Afghans who could peel potatoes for a LOT LESS!

But, if it is for "defense," then it seems to be alright with the GOP!
After all, we need to support our troops! We wouldn't want an AFGHAN to peel the potatoes for their meals!

Well, I support the troops by asking that they come home, today, alive! And that big defense contractors stop milking the system.

I support the troops by asking that their kids be taken care off HERE, at home, with full health care, with good school, even with welfare assistance if necessary!

I support the troops by asking that we STOP insulting them by paying "defense contractors" twice as much to peel potatoes in the mess than what we pay our grunts to risk their life on the front lines.

Cooercion?

Talk about cooercion!

 

[Dr.Who]

Maybe senior citizens being forced to work at Wal Mart, as a matter of life and death, is acceptable to you, but it's not to me.

They are not forced to work at walmart. They voluntarily walk in and fill out an application then voluntarily work and get a paycheck.

Does their situation make it the best choice for them? Probably. Is their situation the result of the need to work? Yes. It would still not be right to characterize that as being forced to work.

You are equating BASIC healthcare with "normal" healthcare. Do you not believe that there are MILLIONS of people in this country who do not receive healthcare because they don't have the means to PAY for it? Do you not believe that there are millions of people in this country who are unnecessarily enduring crippling illnesses and diseases because they don't have the money to see a doctor and/or pay for medications?

Look, I don't agree with most of what the leftists believe in, and I abhor the hypocrisy and the lies and the childish behaviors of the leftists, but there is a thing called "compassion" and there is a thing called "helping your fellow man". Decent health care is one of the most basic of human needs, after food and water. NOBODY in this country should be without QUALITY health care.

Everyone, every single one, who cannot afford to buy healthcare ( a small number ( thought bigger than it should be)) gets at the least, public aid.

Are you saying that public aid is not adequate? I have managed public aid benefits for a number of my clients and while it is not a cadilac plan it is clearly mostly adequate. Yes it has problems which I believe are the result of it being a government plan. We need to reduce the number of people in this country who are on plans run by the gov not increase them.

Would I characterize public aid as not being quality? Actually, while I would like to I cannot. It is worse than other plans but it is good enough to be called quality. They do have worse outcomes but they get treated in the same hospitals by the same doctors and the only difference is that the doctors have to follow rules about what treatments they can offer. For example, a hard of hearing person on public aid can get a hearing aid but only one - thats all the gov thinks is needed to hear. As unfair as I tink that is I cannot argue with the logic.

No body in this country lacks quality health care and if you think they do then it is those on the gov plan.

And since no one lacks quality health care there is no need to make major changes toward nationalized healthcare.

 

[Dr.Who]

We as a society get to decide how we as a society want to do things. This discussion isn't about unalienable rights, its about how we decide we wish to live.

Federal law and state law are not the same. The fed gov may not do things that it has not been given the power to do.

Also, this is about inalienable rights because the right to keep your own property is an inalienable right and is in the constitution. This argument is trying to find the balance between the inalienable right to keep the fruits of ones labor under federal law against the wishes of society for the fed to provide health care which is not authorized in the constitution. Clearly the inalienable right trumps the unconstitutional wish.

Now if a state gov wanted to provide health care and its constitution allowed for that then that is a different story.