Rich pay most federal taxes

[palerider]

I did some research and you're right. But I still stand by my original statement that most poor people work hard, and how hard someone works and their wealth aren't directly proportional.

I agree that poor people work hard. But the vast majority of the rich work hard also. And I agree that how hard one works, isn't directly proportional to how much one makes either. We don't work in a vaccum. The amount of wealth that one has the potential to make is, in large part, determined by choices that we make before we ever enter the job market, or choices we make early into our lives as adults.

Not finishing school, getting pregnant, getting married before one is financially able to support a family, getting into debt for want of instant gratification, etc., etc., etc., are all things that put us at an immediate disadvantage and make it very difficult indeed to ever get ahead. Most of us are not as successful as we could have been because of decisions and choices that we, ourselves, have made and it is simply not reasonable to expect other people to pay to cover our own stupid mistakes.

 

[palerider]

I'm talking about this statement: "Far more whites are born into poverty than blacks." Are the figures for that in The Millionaire Next Door?

Yes, but think about it. Since there are more whites, it stands to reason that far more whites would be born into poverty. Certainly more whites are on the welfare rolls than blacks. If you are talking about a percentage of eitehr given population, however, then a higher percentage of blacks are poor than whites.

When considering this, however, one must take into consideration that today more than 70% of all blacks are born to single parent homes, about 70% of black kids don't finish high school. Do you believe those two numbers are coincidental? Before we began the "great society" experiments in the 50's and 60's, the percentage of black children that were born to single families was about 6% greater than whites and the percentages of black children that finished high school was also almost the same as whites. Here we are after almost 50 years and the black community has been effectively destroyed.

Your fancy writing using lots of buzzwords and cliches is intended to impress and direct attention away from your argument, and I want people to see through that because I'm arguing with you.

I write the way I write. If it impresses, it isn't intentional. And I use cliche when it makes a point, not to divert from a point.

 

[saggyjones]

I agree that poor people work hard. But the vast majority of the rich work hard also. And I agree that how hard one works, isn't directly proportional to how much one makes either. We don't work in a vaccum. The amount of wealth that one has the potential to make is, in large part, determined by choices that we make before we ever enter the job market, or choices we make early into our lives as adults.

Not finishing school, getting pregnant, getting married before one is financially able to support a family, getting into debt for want of instant gratification, etc., etc., etc., are all things that put us at an immediate disadvantage and make it very difficult indeed to ever get ahead. Most of us are not as successful as we could have been because of decisions and choices that we, ourselves, have made and it is simply not reasonable to expect other people to pay to cover our own stupid mistakes.

Since we agree on this, I'll go back to the original question. The reason the rich pay more income tax is because the government needs money, and since they have the most money they get the most taken away. It's not fair, but I believe it's the fairest system that actually gives the government enough money. Anyway, most rich people can dodge some taxes, even if it doesn't make up the difference between them and the poor people.

 

[saggyjones]

Yes, but think about it. Since there are more whites, it stands to reason that far more whites would be born into poverty. Certainly more whites are on the welfare rolls than blacks. If you are talking about a percentage of eitehr given population, however, then a higher percentage of blacks are poor than whites.

I thought that percentage was implied. Of course there are more whites born into poverty overall.

When considering this, however, one must take into consideration that today more than 70% of all blacks are born to single parent homes, about 70% of black kids don't finish high school. Do you believe those two numbers are coincidental? Before we began the "great society" experiments in the 50's and 60's, the percentage of black children that were born to single families was about 6% greater than whites and the percentages of black children that finished high school was also almost the same as whites. Here we are after almost 50 years and the black community has been effectively destroyed.

Isn't that pretty much what I said in the beginning? Blacks are more likely to be born into poor neighborhoods and families that probably don't take as good care of their children as rich people, so they don't have the same opportunities as white kids. Also, there is still a lot of racism, but most employers aren't racist so I don't think that holds them back too much.

I write the way I write. If it impresses, it isn't intentional. And I use cliche when it makes a point, not to divert from a point.

That's fine, I'm just expressing my opinion and interpretation.

 

[palerider]

Since we agree on this, I'll go back to the original question. The reason the rich pay more income tax is because the government needs money, and since they have the most money they get the most taken away. It's not fair, but I believe it's the fairest system that actually gives the government enough money. Anyway, most rich people can dodge some taxes, even if it doesn't make up the difference between them and the poor people.

The government needs the money to redistribute to the very people who have made stupid mistakes and are never going to be successful as a result. The largest portion of our tax money goes into social programs.

If the government were just collecting taxes to pay for legitimate functions of government, a 2% national sales tax would cover it.

 

[palerider]

Isn't that pretty much what I said in the beginning? Blacks are more likely to be born into poor neighborhoods and families that probably don't take as good care of their children as rich people, so they don't have the same opportunities as white kids. Also, there is still a lot of racism, but most employers aren't racist so I don't think that holds them back too much.

OK. So we have a group of people who are generationally dependent. Who don't attempt to succeed in school because they get hammered on for "acting white". Who's music glorifies crime, drugs, abuse of women, and early death. Explain to me why I should pay more taxes to support the very programs that have created this social problem in the first place.

 

[saggyjones]

The government needs the money to redistribute to the very people who have made stupid mistakes and are never going to be successful as a result. The largest portion of our tax money goes into social programs.

If the government were just collecting taxes to pay for legitimate functions of government, a 2% national sales tax would cover it.

Not everyone can be smart, and the government doesn't just collect taxes to cover what you define as legitimate functions of government. What's your point?

By the way, the majority of funding goes to national defense (the war), not to social security.

 

[saggyjones]

OK. So we have a group of people who are generationally dependent. Who don't attempt to succeed in school because they get hammered on for "acting white". Who's music glorifies crime, drugs, abuse of women, and early death. Explain to me why I should pay more taxes to support the very programs that have created this social problem in the first place.

How have the welfare programs created this? It's the entertainment industry that's doing it.

 

[palerider]

Not everyone can be smart, and the government doesn't just collect taxes to cover what you define as legitimate functions of government.

There is a difference between not being smart and simply being stupid and expecting for someone else to bail you out.

By the way, the majority of funding goes to national defense (the war), not to social security.

By the way, you are wrong. This is one of the things that frustrates me most about talking with liberals. You are obviously smart, but you simply don't take the time (and it doesn't take much) to determine whether the things you base your positions on are true or not. Here again, your positon is based on faulty information. Here is a chart depicting how congress has spent our tax money since FY '04.

Clearly, health and human services spending (welfare) outstripps, and always has outstripped military spending and the gap is growing larger by the year. Also note the separate graph at the bottom, it shows social security spending which is not part of the federal budget. You will note that it is also larger than military spending. Put social security spending and health and human services spending together and you have an amount that literally dwarfs military spending.

So we saw in the global warming thread that your positons on global warming were based on false information. We have seen that your positon on the rich was based on false information. Now, your position on how and where our money is spent is based on false information. How much more of what you believe is based on fiction rather than fact?

And the $64 dollar question is what do you do about it?

 

[palerider]

How have the welfare programs created this? It's the entertainment industry that's doing it.

Is this a serious question? Consider the most basic flaw in the welfare system. From the very beginning, a woman could recieve welfare and could recieve more money if she had more children, but could not recieve money if she were married. Families are what hold societies together. Welfare deconstructed the black family. You can view the black community as an experiment with the aim of seeing what happens if you remove the family structure from the picture. How do you like what you see?

The decline of the black community began when the government assumed the role of the father (breadwinner) in the family and what you see now is the result. The entertainment industry hasn't just decided that the hip hop, gangster life style is what they are going to produce for the black community, they are producing it because that is what the black community is calling for.

 

[saggyjones]

There is a difference between not being smart and simply being stupid and expecting for someone else to bail you out.

Of course there is a difference. But not every person who uses welfare is just looking for the easy way out. For example, do you suggest eliminating Medicare? My mom works for St. Mary's hospice, and people on it who are dying can't afford proper medical care because they're too old to work and their families are poor.

By the way, you are wrong. This is one of the things that frustrates me most about talking with liberals. You are obviously smart, but you simply don't take the time (and it doesn't take much) to determine whether the things you base your positions on are true or not. Here again, your positon is based on faulty information. Here is a chart depicting how congress has spent our tax money since FY '04.

Clearly, health and human services spending (welfare) outstripps, and always has outstripped military spending and the gap is growing larger by the year. Also note the separate graph at the bottom, it shows social security spending which is not part of the federal budget. You will note that it is also larger than military spending. Put social security spending and health and human services spending together and you have an amount that literally dwarfs military spending.

So we saw in the global warming thread that your positons on global warming were based on false information. We have seen that your positon on the rich was based on false information. Now, your position on how and where our money is spent is based on false information. How much more of what you believe is based on fiction rather than fact?

And the $64 dollar question is what do you do about it?

Once again you've proved me wrong. I actually looked at the government budget site and I pretty much skimmed through it, and misread the stats. But I have no regrets about being wrong because I admit and have admitted it.

 

[saggyjones]

Is this a serious question? Consider the most basic flaw in the welfare system. From the very beginning, a woman could recieve welfare and could recieve more money if she had more children, but could not recieve money if she were married. Families are what hold societies together. Welfare deconstructed the black family. You can view the black community as an experiment with the aim of seeing what happens if you remove the family structure from the picture. How do you like what you see?

The decline of the black community began when the government assumed the role of the father (breadwinner) in the family and what you see now is the result. The entertainment industry hasn't just decided that the hip hop, gangster life style is what they are going to produce for the black community, they are producing it because that is what the black community is calling for.

That's a good point. In fact I don't see how that can be argued, because you're right. However, I still believe welfare can really help people. I'd rather spend some of my money to help the few people that actually need welfare, even if most goes to the people who created the problem. There is no answer to why you should spend money to help a few people, because you shouldn't. But that's the way it is, and personally I don't mind it, but if you do maybe you should move to somewhere that doesn't have welfare.

 

[Friendindeed]

That's a good point. In fact I don't see how that can be argued, because you're right. However, I still believe welfare can really help people. I'd rather spend some of my money to help the few people that actually need welfare, even if most goes to the people who created the problem. There is no answer to why you should spend money to help a few people, because you shouldn't. But that's the way it is, and personally I don't mind it, but if you do maybe you should move to somewhere that doesn't have welfare.

Personally I don't think he should have to move anywhere. The thing should be cleaned up and that's all there is to it.

 

[saggyjones]

Personally I don't think he should have to move anywhere. The thing should be cleaned up and that's all there is to it.

So you suggest eliminating welfare?

 

[Friendindeed]

So you suggest eliminating welfare?

You're putting words in my mouth again lol. I said "cleaned up" not eliminated.

You said "I'd rather spend some of my money to help the few people that actually need welfare, even if most goes to the people who created the problem."

My feeling is, fantastic.
Spend YOUR money then.
The trouble with liberals is that they spend OTHER PEOPLE's money.