Rich pay most federal taxes

[USMC the Almighty]

Good for you and your dad then. But rich people don't work harder than poor people as I'm sure you know, and no matter what you think it's not always possible to rise up, because some people don't have the ability and skills of your dad.


This isn't the point. You are saying that the rich work harder than the poor just because they have more money, which isn't true.

Of course I'm generalizing here, but it certainly isn't random which people become successful. There will always be those who get lucky and hit it big and get rich without much talent o effort, and likewise, those who work really hard and are victims of unfortunate circumstances. However, I still believe that every single American has an opportunity to rise up.

When did I say I have a problem with capitalism?

I inferred it from your criticism of it. My apologies. But do you have an idea for a better economic system?

So you want people to be completely self-sufficient, but also have money given to them? That makes no sense.

You just don't get it. Perhpas I'm not articulating my thoughts clearly enough. I believe that people should rely on themselves and not be dependent on some outside force. But at the same time, I never said people shouldn't be charitable. I just don't think the government should be the one redistributing income. Whenever the governmental bureaucracies get involved everything gets more expensive, less efficient, and more painful (paperwork, etc.) This is why capitalist societies are more charitable than other big gov't ones. Furthermore, this is why conservatives are more charitable than liberals.

 

[palerider]

You don't seem to understand that rich people almost always have better opportunities for success. Someone who's born in Harlem is basically stuck there, because of this cycle: A boy with average intelligence is born into a poor family in Harlem. He tries his hardest all the time in school and gets straight A's until he reaches high school, when his intelligence level allows him to get only a 3.0 in average classes (not enough for a scholarship, especially since he's so poor). Since he can't afford college he is forced to work at the local burger joint, and he works very hard every day but since he makes minimum wage he can only afford a small place. He eventually becomes manager at the restaurant but still can't afford college because he's supporting his wife and two kids. A very hard worker yet stuck in the poor working class. On the other hand a kid whose parents are rich can get through life with money buying everything and have a much better opportunity for success. So please don't say that the more money you have the harder you work, because it's not true.

No wonder liberals aren't happy people. You spend so much of your time making up depressing fairy tales. The FACT is that 80% of the millionaires in this country are first generation rich. In case you aren't sure what that means, it means that their parents weren't rich.

You paint a pretty dismal picture for people born in poor areas. Let me tell you about one. His name is Farrah Gray. He was raised in a predominantly black Chicago neighborhood. At age 8, he started a lemonade stand business, later a venture capital business, a food business and a magazine. By age 17, Farrah Gray was a millionaire, had been chief executive of four companies, and had offices on Wall Street, and in Las Vegas and Los Angeles. Imagine, a poor black kid, born in a poor black neighborhood making a million by the time he was 17.

While he isn't typical (even for upper middle class white kids) he shows that it is possible. In fact, it is more than possible to become rich in this country.

Of those 80% of the first generation rich, fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent or more of their wealth. More than half never received as much as a dollar in inheritance. Fewer than 25 percent received "an act of kindness" from a relative greater than $10,000, and 91 percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 from the ownership of a family business.

According to IRS tax data, 85.8 percent of tax filers in the bottom fifth in any given year moved on to a higher quintile, and often to the top quintile within the next 10 years. The fact is that a very small percentage of the people in this country spend their whole lives poor and of those who do, personal choices are nearly always the reason.

What sort of people are liberals who preach pessimism and doom to people -- telling them that they're poor because others are rich or telling blacks that they'll never make it because of societal racism? What sort of people are the politicians, media pundits and college professors who preach the politics of envy, telling people lies that the rich became rich off the backs of the poor? If you really want to help, then try telling the truth and the truth is that this is America and you can be whatever you set your mind to be.

 

[saggyjones]

We (the people) shouldn't be paying a federal income tax on our wages anyways. The Supreme Court ruled that the 16th Amendment gave Congress no new powers of taxation. It was also ruled that "income" was defined as "Corporate Profit".

What kind of tax do you suggest then?

 

[saggyjones]

Of course I'm generalizing here, but it certainly isn't random which people become successful. There will always be those who get lucky and hit it big and get rich without much talent o effort, and likewise, those who work really hard and are victims of unfortunate circumstances. However, I still believe that every single American has an opportunity to rise up.

Well then you are very naive. But we won't be able to agree on this so why argue it any longer?

I inferred it from your criticism of it. My apologies. But do you have an idea for a better economic system?

No, I support the one now. You are the one suggesting changing the tax system.

You just don't get it. Perhpas I'm not articulating my thoughts clearly enough.

Perhaps you aren't...

I believe that people should rely on themselves and not be dependent on some outside force. But at the same time, I never said people shouldn't be charitable. I just don't think the government should be the one redistributing income.

Whenever the governmental bureaucracies get involved everything gets more expensive, less efficient, and more painful (paperwork, etc.) This is why capitalist societies are more charitable than other big gov't ones.

So you want to get rid of social security and welfare for disabled people?

Furthermore, this is why conservatives are more charitable than liberals.

I am a liberal that supports capitalism, but I think there need to be some welfare programs too, unlike you with your laissez-faire ideology. Oh wait, you aren't laissez-faire. You don't support the government helping small businesses grow with subsidies and tax breaks (a key part of Adam Smith's version of capitalism) because you believe the government shouldn't give to anybody. What big business or private company is going to help out small businesses? No company will sacrifice its own profit to help others; that's the way capitalism works.

 

[saggyjones]

No wonder liberals aren't happy people.

ok...

You spend so much of your time making up depressing fairy tales. The FACT is that 80% of the millionaires in this country are first generation rich. In case you aren't sure what that means, it means that their parents weren't rich.

Hmm, you don't think that has anything to do with inflation and economic progress in general, do you?

You paint a pretty dismal picture for people born in poor areas. Let me tell you about one. His name is Farrah Gray. He was raised in a predominantly black Chicago neighborhood. At age 8, he started a lemonade stand business, later a venture capital business, a food business and a magazine. By age 17, Farrah Gray was a millionaire, had been chief executive of four companies, and had offices on Wall Street, and in Las Vegas and Los Angeles. Imagine, a poor black kid, born in a poor black neighborhood making a million by the time he was 17.

Once again, he had the brains to do so. Most people don't.

While he isn't typical (even for upper middle class white kids) he shows that it is possible. In fact, it is more than possible to become rich in this country.

The only thing more than possible is a 100% chance, so I would say it's not more than possible to become rich.

Of those 80% of the first generation rich, fewer than 20 percent inherited 10 percent or more of their wealth. More than half never received as much as a dollar in inheritance. Fewer than 25 percent received "an act of kindness" from a relative greater than $10,000, and 91 percent never received, as a gift, as much as $1 from the ownership of a family business.

The rich are a very small portion of our population and have the ability to rise up. That doesn't mean they work harder. Only 1.5% of people earn over 250,000 dollars a year according to a 2005 census.

According to IRS tax data, 85.8 percent of tax filers in the bottom fifth in any given year moved on to a higher quintile, and often to the top quintile within the next 10 years. The fact is that a very small percentage of the people in this country spend their whole lives poor and of those who do, personal choices are nearly always the reason.

Back to my original point: rich people don't work harder than poor people. Do you agree?

What sort of people are liberals who preach pessimism and doom to people -- telling them that they're poor because others are rich or telling blacks that they'll never make it because of societal racism?

Realistic ones. Do you really believe racism is gone? And what does 'telling them they're poor because others are rich' mean? Are you saying everyone's rich?

What sort of people are the politicians, media pundits and college professors who preach the politics of envy, telling people lies that the rich became rich off the backs of the poor?

In capitalism the business owners employ the workers and pay them as little as possible while keeping their work ethic high. They pick the hardest workers and force everyone to compete, so while they sit in their desk the workers are breaking their backs to support the company they have no relation to. Just to make it clear, I don't disapprove of this, because it's the best system we've come up with so far, and though it's ugly, capitalism is effective. But you can't deny that the rich do exploit the poor to an extent.

If you really want to help, then try telling the truth and the truth is that this is America and you can be whatever you set your mind to be.

You are obviously still naive and haven't been exposed to the real world yet, but you'll understand in time.

 

[palerider]

ok...

I don't do the studies, I am just telling you what they have found.

Hmm, you don't think that has anything to do with inflation and economic progress in general, do you?

This figure, 80 percent of the rich are first generation rich has held for over 100 years. So no, I don't think it has anything to do with inflation. Economic progress? Yes. But then taking advantage of economic progress is the right of every American.

Once again, he had the brains to do so. Most people don't.

So we should set up programs that foster generational dependence because you don't believe that people are smart enough to take care of themselves? What exactly is it about you that leads you to believe that you are so much smarter than people living at the government trough? What makes you so much better than them?

The only thing more than possible is a 100% chance, so I would say it's not more than possible to become rich.

So according to you, there is no calculation between a 1% possibility of becoming rich and a 100% possibility of becoming rich? Where did you learn math?

The rich are a very small portion of our population and have the ability to rise up. That doesn't mean they work harder. Only 1.5% of people earn over 250,000 dollars a year according to a 2005 census.

More fairy tales. I suggest that you read The Millionaire Next Door . And exactly what makes you believe that one must make 250K per year to become a millionaire? What kind of thinking is that? You think that a person has to make a quarter of a million dollars a year in order to become rich? USE YOUR BRAIN.

The kid that cuts my grass became a millionaire last year. He graduated from high school in 1997 and during that summer, he bought a trailer and a couple of used mowers. He started cutting grass. His plan was to enter the local junior college and begin a degree in landscape design. By the end of that summer, he had so much work, that he couldn't begin college. Now, almost 10 years later, if you pay attention, you will see no less than 14 trucks driving around with his name on them pulling trailers loaded with all sorts of lawn care equipment and similar implements of destruction.

He has since got that degree in landscape design and is adding trucks and crews at the rate of about 1 every 6 months now.

Your suggestion that only 1% make over 250K per year may be true, but it doesn't speak to the rich in this country. Over 10% of us are millionaires. That is the truth and when you live in a nation in which one out of 10 has managed to amass a million dollars, you are living in paradise.

Back to my original point: rich people don't work harder than poor people. Do you agree?

No I don't agree. The vast majority of the rich in this country own small businesses like the kid that cuts my grass. The leftist elite rich like al gore and teddy kennedy and john "F'ing" kerry who inherited or married their way into fortune don't but they represent the smallest fraction of the rich in this country.

Realistic ones. Do you really believe racism is gone? And what does 'telling them they're poor because others are rich' mean? Are you saying everyone's rich?

No. I recently stopped at a gas station in a predominantly black area and got terrible service and was looked at with obvious suspicion. I have been in predominantly black restaurants and gotten noticably smaller portions as well. So no, racism is still alive and well. Racism, however, has little or nothing to do with becoming wealthy or not becoming wealthy so to even inject it into economic discussions is to be no more than a race whore.

In capitalism the business owners employ the workers and pay them as little as possible while keeping their work ethic high. They pick the hardest workers and force everyone to compete, so while they sit in their desk the workers are breaking their backs to support the company they have no relation to. Just to make it clear, I don't disapprove of this, because it's the best system we've come up with so far, and though it's ugly, capitalism is effective. But you can't deny that the rich do exploit the poor to an extent.

Which country are you from? Employers don't work on the lowest bid unless they are looking to go out of business. Employers need people who can get the job done and are willing to pay what it takes to get such people. Now if the job is flipping a hamburger patty, or mopping a floor, exactly how much do you believe one needs to spend to get that work done as opposed to working on a car, or making a complicated widget?

You seem to be angry because employers aren't willing to pay more to get the job done than the job is worth.

You are obviously still naive and haven't been exposed to the real world yet, but you'll understand in time.

I have grandchildren that I imagine are older than you kiddo. I suppose I have forgotten more about the real world than you are likely to ever learn with that leftist elitist attitude of yours.

 

[saggyjones]

I don't do the studies, I am just telling you what they have found.

Can you please provide the study that shows liberals are unhappy people?

This figure, 80 percent of the rich are first generation rich has held for over 100 years. So no, I don't think it has anything to do with inflation. Economic progress? Yes. But then taking advantage of economic progress is the right of every American.

I know that. But what makes you think that rich people work harder than poor people?

So we should set up programs that foster generational dependence because you don't believe that people are smart enough to take care of themselves?

No. I was simply saying that rich people don't necessarily work harder than poor people. The people who do rise up usually are smarter and have the ability to rise up, but most people who are poor don't have that ability.

What exactly is it about you that leads you to believe that you are so much smarter than people living at the government trough? What makes you so much better than them?

You must really think yourself clever for this, a real spin doctor aren't you? Please. Speak your silly twisted words to someone more gullible.

So according to you, there is no calculation between a 1% possibility of becoming rich and a 100% possibility of becoming rich? Where did you learn math?

Just think for a second about the phrase 'more than possible' and you'll understand.

More fairy tales. I suggest that you read The Millionaire Next Door . And exactly what makes you believe that one must make 250K per year to become a millionaire? What kind of thinking is that? You think that a person has to make a quarter of a million dollars a year in order to become rich? USE YOUR BRAIN.

The kid that cuts my grass became a millionaire last year. He graduated from high school in 1997 and during that summer, he bought a trailer and a couple of used mowers. He started cutting grass. His plan was to enter the local junior college and begin a degree in landscape design. By the end of that summer, he had so much work, that he couldn't begin college. Now, almost 10 years later, if you pay attention, you will see no less than 14 trucks driving around with his name on them pulling trailers loaded with all sorts of lawn care equipment and similar implements of destruction.

He has since got that degree in landscape design and is adding trucks and crews at the rate of about 1 every 6 months now.

Your suggestion that only 1% make over 250K per year may be true, but it doesn't speak to the rich in this country. Over 10% of us are millionaires. That is the truth and when you live in a nation in which one out of 10 has managed to amass a million dollars, you are living in paradise.

Fine, but what makes you think that the rich work harder than the poor? That was my argument with USMC the Almighty.

No I don't agree. The vast majority of the rich in this country own small businesses like the kid that cuts my grass. The leftist elite rich like al gore and teddy kennedy and john "F'ing" kerry who inherited or married their way into fortune don't but they represent the smallest fraction of the rich in this country.

You avoided the question. That kid had a good idea and was able to rise up, but many people are stuck at low level jobs and can't afford to start a small business. No matter how hard they work they might never be promoted. So are you telling me that rich people in general work harder than poor people?

No. I recently stopped at a gas station in a predominantly black area and got terrible service and was looked at with obvious suspicion. I have been in predominantly black restaurants and gotten noticably smaller portions as well. So no, racism is still alive and well. Racism, however, has little or nothing to do with becoming wealthy or not becoming wealthy so to even inject it into economic discussions is to be no more than a race whore.

Are you telling me that black families are just as wealth as white ones, and that the class you are born into isn't affected by your race? That is ridiculous; how many white kids are born in the poor parts of Harlem, or the poor parts of LA? Very few. Minorities are generally poorer, and to deny that is pure stupidity. That's not racist by any means, it's just the way it is, so to inject race into economic discussions is perfectly valid.

Which country are you from? Employers don't work on the lowest bid unless they are looking to go out of business. Employers need people who can get the job done and are willing to pay what it takes to get such people. Now if the job is flipping a hamburger patty, or mopping a floor, exactly how much do you believe one needs to spend to get that work done as opposed to working on a car, or making a complicated widget?

You seem to be angry because employers aren't willing to pay more to get the job done than the job is worth.

Why do you argue with me and then repeat what I said? Like you and I said, employers pay what is necessary for the job. But they aren't going to pay more than is necessary because they want the greatest profit possible.

Anyway, you avoided my argument. You first said that the rich don't make money off the backs of the poor, and I disagree. They exploit workers and pay them only what's necessary, and competition forces wages down even further, which I don't disapprove of because it works.

I have grandchildren that I imagine are older than you kiddo. I suppose I have forgotten more about the real world than you are likely to ever learn with that leftist elitist attitude of yours.

I count three cliches there. Why not write some of your own material?

 

[palerider]

You avoided the question. That kid had a good idea and was able to rise up, but many people are stuck at low level jobs and can't afford to start a small business. No matter how hard they work they might never be promoted. So are you telling me that rich people in general work harder than poor people?

You have a disconcerting way of missing the obvious saggyjones. If you want people to believe that you are the smartest guy in the room, you really need to stop doing that and use your brain.

We know, beyond a doubt, that small business owners make up the vast majority of the rich in this country. Do you know any small business owners. They tend to work in excess of 60 hours per week and their families tend to do the same. They are there when the business opens and there when it closes and they do the books after hours and make contacts and have meetings with prospective clients and suppliers after hours as well. Small business owners are among the hardest working people in the country.

Now here is the using your brain part.

If we know that small business owners tend to work more than the average worker, and we know that the vast majority of the rich in this country are small business owners.....

Can you put 2 + 2 together and come up with an answer?

 

[palerider]

Can you please provide the study that shows liberals are unhappy people?

Sure. This is one of the most well known, but there are others if you need them.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/301/are-we-happy-yet

Are you telling me that black families are just as wealth as white ones, and that the class you are born into isn't affected by your race? That is ridiculous; how many white kids are born in the poor parts of Harlem, or the poor parts of LA? Very few. Minorities are generally poorer, and to deny that is pure stupidity. That's not racist by any means, it's just the way it is, so to inject race into economic discussions is perfectly valid.

Far more whites are born into poverty than blacks. If you check your figures, you will find that minorities with the exception of blacks are more likely to succeed in this country. Especially minorities who immigrate here and haven't heard from people like you that it is impossible to make it in this country unless you have blue eyes and blonde hair. I saw a study recently concerning the way blacks feel about black african immigrants and there is much resentment there because the black immigrants tend to succeed. You and yours have instilled the attitude of the victim into american blacks and at this point, I don't know how to undo the damage you have done.

Why do you argue with me and then repeat what I said? Like you and I said, employers pay what is necessary for the job. But they aren't going to pay more than is necessary because they want the greatest profit possible.

When you go to the store, do you insist on paying more for your purchases than they are worth? If you insist on paying more, then there will be more money for the employers to pay their employees. Employers purchase labor in exactly the same way as you purchase groceries and furniture. If you don't go about demanding that you be allowed to pay more than the sticker price but complain that employers don't pay more than the labor they are purchasing is worth then you are no more than a hypocrite.

 

[saggyjones]

You have a disconcerting way of missing the obvious saggyjones. If you want people to believe that you are the smartest guy in the room, you really need to stop doing that and use your brain.

I don't care what someone on a forum thinks of my intelligence because I don't know them.

We know, beyond a doubt, that small business owners make up the vast majority of the rich in this country.

I'd like to see some proof of this because I don't believe that's true. Of course there are many small business owners but most rich people own one or a few McDonald's restaurants, Wal-Mart stores, etc. Most people who start their own business aren't all that successful.

Do you know any small business owners.

Assuming this is a question, yes, and they don't work 60 hours a week. But I can't generalize about them because I don't know enough of them.

They tend to work in excess of 60 hours per week and their families tend to do the same. They are there when the business opens and there when it closes and they do the books after hours and make contacts and have meetings with prospective clients and suppliers after hours as well. Small business owners are among the hardest working people in the country.

That may well be, but poor people usually work about 60 hours also, and the owner of a McDonald's restaurant doesn't stay all day.

Now here is the using your brain part.

Zing!

If we know that small business owners tend to work more than the average worker, and we know that the vast majority of the rich in this country are small business owners.....

Addressed above.

Can you put 2 + 2 together and come up with an answer?

Another stupid cliche. You know, these don't add anything to your argument.

 

[saggyjones]

Sure. This is one of the most well known, but there are others if you need them.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/301/are-we-happy-yet

Just because conservatives are generally more happy than liberals doesn't mean liberals are unhappy people. There are percentages involved, not just a group status of unhappiness.

I think this comes from liberals tending to be overly pessimistic and conservatives overly optimistic.

Far more whites are born into poverty than blacks. If you check your figures,

Can you please provide these figures?

you will find that minorities with the exception of blacks are more likely to succeed in this country. Especially minorities who immigrate here and haven't heard from people like you that it is impossible to make it in this country unless you have blue eyes and blonde hair. I saw a study recently concerning the way blacks feel about black african immigrants and there is much resentment there because the black immigrants tend to succeed. You and yours have instilled the attitude of the victim into american blacks and at this point, I don't know how to undo the damage you have done.

Since you seem to deny that racism still exists, we won't be able to agree on this. If you provide some evidence for this as I asked above I will address it.

When you go to the store, do you insist on paying more for your purchases than they are worth? If you insist on paying more, then there will be more money for the employers to pay their employees. Employers purchase labor in exactly the same way as you purchase groceries and furniture. If you don't go about demanding that you be allowed to pay more than the sticker price but complain that employers don't pay more than the labor they are purchasing is worth then you are no more than a hypocrite.

You ****ing *****, that's exactly what I'm saying. AS I HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES, I support capitalism, and I know the employers pay the lowest appropriate amount for the job. I was simply arguing that the rich much of the time get rich off the backs of the poor, and though I don't have a problem with this, it does happen.

 

[palerider]

I'd like to see some proof of this because I don't believe that's true. Of course there are many small business owners but most rich people own one or a few McDonald's restaurants, Wal-Mart stores, etc. Most people who start their own business aren't all that successful.

Typical of liberals, you have a very unrealistic view of the rich. That is why I suggested that you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". It is an exaustive study of the rich in this country and is thoroughly referenced and corroborated.

Here, let me give you a short list of things most people don't know about the millionaires in this country that they might tell you about themselves if you asked.

• About one in five of us is retired. About two-thirds of us who are working are self-employed. Interestingly, self-employed people make up less than 20 percent of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires. Also, three out of four of us who are self-employed consider ourselves to be entrepreneurs. Most of the others are self-employed professionals, such as doctors and accountants.
  
• Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dull/normal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors.
  
• Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.
  
• Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.
  
• We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.

Here is a writeup giving some information about the book and about the wealthy in this country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/millionairenextdoor.htm

The book, available for free at your local library, is a very interesting read and will provide ample references so that you can check the accuracy of the information.

It is sad to see someone such as yourself who is obviously intelligent to have a world view that is so often based on information that simply isn't true.

That may well be, but poor people usually work about 60 hours also, and the owner of a McDonald's restaurant doesn't stay all day.

The owner of a mcdonalds doesn't represent the majority of millionaires. The owner of a welding shop who started in his garage, or a mechanic or body man who started in his garage, or the guy who cuts your grass represents the average millionaire in this coutry. Getting back to the owner of the McDonalds, where do you believe he got the money to purchace that McDonalds? Your answer, no doubt, will reveal more of your misperception with regard to the wealthy in this country.

Another stupid cliche. You know, these don't add anything to your argument.

Personally I would rather have cliches and know what I am talking about than to be attempting to make an argument based on nothing more than my own unsubstantiated, uncorroborated opinion which is what you are doing. You have done no study into this area and are just making it up as you go.

 

[palerider]

I think this comes from liberals tending to be overly pessimistic and conservatives overly optimistic.

Unrealistic pessimism is unhappiness saggyjones. You make my point and then claim that it is a numbers game. You are far more pessimistic than me and your pessimism is based on a world view that is founded in bad information.

Can you please provide these figures?

I have given you a thoroughly referenced and corroborated source. If you are interested, then read the book. Get it from your local library and it won't cost you a dime.

You ****ing *****, that's exactly what I'm saying. AS I HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIMES, I support capitalism, and I know the employers pay the lowest appropriate amount for the job. I was simply arguing that the rich much of the time get rich off the backs of the poor, and though I don't have a problem with this, it does happen.

Name calling? I knew you would get down to that level eventually because so much of what you say is easily arguable and you were bound to get frustrated, but you got there more quickly than I expected.

This statement is a perfect example of how wrong you are and how negative your view is and once again you are missing the obvious. You make the claim that employers are getting rich off the backs of their employees. How wrong can you be. Employers are business owners and business owners get rich off the backs of their customers. One must accumulate wealth in order to become wealthy and to the best of my knowledge, employers don't collect any wealth from employees.

You rail at me over using cliches and here you are using "getting rich off the backs of their employees" which is not only a cliche, but a completely dishonest cliche.

 

[saggyjones]

Typical of liberals, you have a very unrealistic view of the rich. That is why I suggested that you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". It is an exaustive study of the rich in this country and is thoroughly referenced and corroborated.

Here, let me give you a short list of things most people don't know about the millionaires in this country that they might tell you about themselves if you asked.

• About one in five of us is retired. About two-thirds of us who are working are self-employed. Interestingly, self-employed people make up less than 20 percent of the workers in America but account for two-thirds of the millionaires. Also, three out of four of us who are self-employed consider ourselves to be entrepreneurs. Most of the others are self-employed professionals, such as doctors and accountants.
  
• Many of the types of businesses we are in could be classified as dull/normal. We are welding contractors, auctioneers, rice farmers, owners of mobile-home parks, pest controllers, coin and stamp dealers, and paving contractors.
  
• Our household's total annual realized (taxable) income is $131,000 (median, or 50th percentile), while our average income is $247,000. Note that those of us who have incomes in the $500,000 to $999,999 category (8 percent) and the $1 million or more category (5 percent) skew the average upward.
  
• Most of us have never felt at a disadvantage because we did not receive any inheritance. About 80 percent of us are first-generation affluent.
  
• We live well below our means. We wear inexpensive suits and drive American-made cars. Only a minority of us drive the current-model-year automobile. Only a minority ever lease our motor vehicles.

Here is a writeup giving some information about the book and about the wealthy in this country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/millionairenextdoor.htm

The book, available for free at your local library, is a very interesting read and will provide ample references so that you can check the accuracy of the information.

It is sad to see someone such as yourself who is obviously intelligent to have a world view that is so often based on information that simply isn't true.



The owner of a mcdonalds doesn't represent the majority of millionaires. The owner of a welding shop who started in his garage, or a mechanic or body man who started in his garage, or the guy who cuts your grass represents the average millionaire in this coutry. Getting back to the owner of the McDonalds, where do you believe he got the money to purchace that McDonalds? Your answer, no doubt, will reveal more of your misperception with regard to the wealthy in this country.

I did some research and you're right. But I still stand by my original statement that most poor people work hard, and how hard someone works and their wealth aren't directly proportional.

Also thank you for the compliment, and although I've said I don't care what people say about me on a forum I appreciate it.

Personally I would rather have cliches and know what I am talking about than to be attempting to make an argument based on nothing more than my own unsubstantiated, uncorroborated opinion which is what you are doing. You have done no study into this area and are just making it up as you go.

Hmm good point. And you're right, I am making it up as I go, which is why once you provided actual evidence that makes sense I conceded the debate.

 

[saggyjones]

Unrealistic pessimism is unhappiness saggyjones. You make my point and then claim that it is a numbers game. You are far more pessimistic than me and your pessimism is based on a world view that is founded in bad information.

Well you can say all you want about liberals, but please don't diagnose me with your generalizations. You fail to distinguish between daily life and politics. I am not a very pessimistic person, but in politics I tend to look at the worst case scenario.

I have given you a thoroughly referenced and corroborated source. If you are interested, then read the book. Get it from your local library and it won't cost you a dime.

I'm talking about this statement: "Far more whites are born into poverty than blacks." Are the figures for that in The Millionaire Next Door?

Name calling? I knew you would get down to that level eventually because so much of what you say is easily arguable and you were bound to get frustrated, but you got there more quickly than I expected.

I am frustrated because I was agreeing with you and you seemed to want to continue arguing about the same thing. But now I apologize for calling you a *****.

This statement is a perfect example of how wrong you are and how negative your view is and once again you are missing the obvious. You make the claim that employers are getting rich off the backs of their employees. How wrong can you be. Employers are business owners and business owners get rich off the backs of their customers. One must accumulate wealth in order to become wealthy and to the best of my knowledge, employers don't collect any wealth from employees.

But they do hire workers to produce the items they sell, so they do rely on employees to make money. Like I said I don't disapprove of this.

You rail at me over using cliches and here you are using "getting rich off the backs of their employees" which is not only a cliche, but a completely dishonest cliche.

You over-use them. I only used this one.

Your fancy writing using lots of buzzwords and cliches is intended to impress and direct attention away from your argument, and I want people to see through that because I'm arguing with you.