Prove that God doesn't exist.

[Dr.Who]

I think that no one knows. Many of us have opinions or hopes, but there is nothing to prove anyone's claim to KNOW.

I looked up at the sky the other day and it was blue. I knew that because I had a personal experience that convinced me I knew. But as I make this claim there is nothing to prove my claim that I knew.

My experience was subjective, i.e. I can know it but I can't prove it.

But often when I see a blue sky there is another person with me. Together we have a shared subjective experience. In fact sometimes there are lots and lots of people who all share the same experience and make the same claims. When that happens we say that their experience is now objective.

So how many people have to share the same experience for it to be objective? And what do we do when one group of people has an experience that is contradictory to the experience of another group?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I looked up at the sky the other day and it was blue. I knew that because I had a personal experience that convinced me I knew. But as I make this claim there is nothing to prove my claim that I knew.

My experience was subjective, i.e. I can know it but I can't prove it.

But often when I see a blue sky there is another person with me. Together we have a shared subjective experience. In fact sometimes there are lots and lots of people who all share the same experience and make the same claims. When that happens we say that their experience is now objective.

So how many people have to share the same experience for it to be objective? And what do we do when one group of people has an experience that is contradictory to the experience of another group?

Do you smell that? It's the fading smoke of burned bridges. Breathe deep, you set them on fire.

 

[Dr.Who]

Do you smell that? It's the fading smoke of burned bridges. Breathe deep, you set them on fire.

You said that your last post to me was already gone; that you would never talk to me again.

That either makes you a liar, who should be ridiculed and ignored, or just a human with frailties like everyone else. Do you have no grace to extend to me any acknowledgment that I have frailties too?

What is your favorite statement to falsely throw in a person's face? Right..."love others as yourself" How's that workin for ya?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You said that your last post to me was already gone; that you would never talk to me again.

That either makes you a liar, who should be ridiculed and ignored, or just a human with frailties like everyone else. Do you have no grace to extend to me any acknowledgment that I have frailties too?

What is your favorite statement to falsely throw in a person's face? Right..."love others as yourself" How's that workin for ya?

I said I won't discuss with you. And this is a good example of why. Yes, you have frailties, happy now? Quoting Jesus works realtively well, much better than lying.

 

[Dr.Who]

I said I won't discuss with you. And this is a good example of why. Yes, you have frailties, happy now? Quoting Jesus works realtively well, much better than lying.

And you are discussing with me. Not just as a moment of weakness but intentionally. Wow you really are a liar. Is that the way you want to go with this -that you think we are both liars.

OR do you want to perhaps change your tune and just maybe imagine that part of the problem is that I sometimes make mistakes when posting and part of the problem is that there is a communication gap when you read what I post? The result of those two events is that you conclude I am a liar and you just might be mistaken about that.

Either way are you treating people the way you want to be treating people?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

If one bad-mouths another poster on thread, can that be considered "discussion"? A value judgment probably.

 

[Gipper]

I think that no one knows. Many of us have opinions or hopes, but there is nothing to prove anyone's claim to KNOW.

Duh!

Of course no one knows.

 

[Akeron]

Faith is a normative, not a positive action. Demanding evidence or proof completely undermines its purpose since it's about hope, optimism, and pursuing improvement, not about realizing a final state of paradise among an almighty judge.

Many believe it is about paradise and judgment, but that's because they don't have the time, energy, and attention to come to a full appreciation of morality, so for practicality's sake, they're satisfied with virtues and fables and artifacts and idols instead.

 

[top gun]

It is not believers vs. atheists; there are agnostics and deists also in the mix. Have you considered deist theory? That a God exists but does not react to prayer, or even aware, care, about humans.

www.themystica.org/mystica/articles/d/deism.html

Points that many fail to consider I'm afraid.

I can only go from my personal experience that is not unlike many others that I know.

Studied church from a church perspective... was a steady family church goer for my whole childhood up through about college age. Then really got into studying religions of the world and their origins, and world history and religious conflicts and studied and weighed out a multitude of scientific data and cross referenced it with various religious doctrine.

Came away with this. Can't absolutely prove that there is or at least never was a "God... or Gods". But can't prove at all that there was either. Add to that the rampant internal conflicts both between singular religions not to mention multiple religions and the conflicts with many known scientific facts and one's faith in any man made religion has about the same weight to me as someone walking up to me tomorrow and saying that they had a spiritual vision that the sun in the sky is actually God.

You could have full and unwavering "faith" in that Sun God if you want. In fact many in the past have done just that.

So to me being Agnostic saying there might be a God but I've seen no proof. Or being Deist saying there was a God who started everything in motion and then vanished allowing life to evolve on it's own completely, and completely leaving out all the various man made religious rituals, dogma, doctrine, prophets and once human relatives of God... just makes the only real sense to me.

And until some provably magical religious entity comes forward all one can really do is weigh what we do know and make a decision based on that.

 

[Dr.Who]

If one bad-mouths another poster on thread, can that be considered "discussion"? A value judgment probably.

I will withhold comment on this until after the results of the PM conversation are known. But I make no promises that the content of future PM messages will not be posted publicly if the content can be used to further a train of thought.

 

[EagersWell]

I think the question boils down to "CAN" there be a GOD. Not "is" there a God or isn't there a God, but CAN the universe contain an environment that a "god" or "God" could exist?

Just the idea that there is still so much we don't know about our universe or the origins of our universe shows that it is not outside the realm of any possibility that God could exist.

 

[PLC1]

I think the question boils down to "CAN" there be a GOD. Not "is" there a God or isn't there a God, but CAN the universe contain an environment that a "god" or "God" could exist?

Just the idea that there is still so much we don't know about our universe or the origins of our universe shows that it is not outside the realm of any possibility that God could exist.

In fact, it would be difficult to conceive of how a creation could exist without a creator.

 

[top gun]

In fact, it would be difficult to conceive of how a creation could exist without a creator.

Even if that was so... doesn't in anyway whatsoever mean anything man has cooked up as the link to that is THE link.

I mean let's be serious since the dawn of time man's only come up with what, about 100 different ones & probably many more. Here's just the top 22 belief systems today and they're all over the board. And this doesn't even touch the multiple Greek gods or Indian gods, voodoo, Satanism, witchcraft or tons of other super natural spiritual explanations.

1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

2.Islam: 1.5 billion

3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

4.Hinduism: 900 million

5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

6.Buddhism: 376 million

7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

9.Sikhism: 23 million

10.Juche: 19 million

11.Spiritism: 15 million

12.Judaism: 14 million

13.Baha'i: 7 million

14.Jainism: 4.2 million

15.Shinto: 4 million

16.Cao Dai: 4 million

17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

22.Scientology: 500 thousand

Whenever I see people trying to explain what that one single dog looked like and the guaranteed description is from a Chihuahua, to a Great Dane, to it was really a tiger, to a walking bird, to I think I saw something because the grass moved but I really didn't see anything... the latter actually sounds most credible to me.

Now many things in evolution seem impossible as well but we know from fossilized evidence that for a fact they are real. Land animals the once lived in the sea or visa versa seems crazy... but we know things actually do change that much over long amounts of time completely on their own.

So fact is when we leap to super natural in the end we are left with the same exact actual proven knowledge that we have for any other alien life. A lot of places out there in space... could be possible... still have no proof whatsoever though. It's all simple speculation derived from what someone else has told us.

And when you look at that you should really look at this. You see the primitive Taliban culture on TV? You see how they have morphed a religion into everything they do? And when you look at them anyone can see how uninformed & backward their whole shebang really is.

Well they are probably 50 times more knowledgeable about science and natural events than people were back in biblical times.

That's actually a main problem. People look at religious teachings today and just automatically assume how they would interpret the events described. But it wasn't people with our knowledge at all making that interpretation. It was tribal people not to far advanced from cavemen and women.

 

[PLC1]

Even if that was so... doesn't in anyway whatsoever mean anything man has cooked up as the link to that is THE link.

I mean let's be serious since the dawn of time man's only come up with what, about 100 different ones & probably many more. Here's just the top 22 belief systems today and they're all over the board. And this doesn't even touch the multiple Greek gods or Indian gods, voodoo, Satanism, witchcraft or tons of other super natural spiritual explanations.

1.Christianity: 2.1 billion

2.Islam: 1.5 billion

3.Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

4.Hinduism: 900 million

5.Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

6.Buddhism: 376 million

7.primal-indigenous: 300 million

8.African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

9.Sikhism: 23 million

10.Juche: 19 million

11.Spiritism: 15 million

12.Judaism: 14 million

13.Baha'i: 7 million

14.Jainism: 4.2 million

15.Shinto: 4 million

16.Cao Dai: 4 million

17.Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

18.Tenrikyo: 2 million

19.Neo-Paganism: 1 million

20.Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

21.Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

22.Scientology: 500 thousand

Whenever I see people trying to explain what that one single dog looked like and the guaranteed description is from a Chihuahua, to a Great Dane, to it was really a tiger, to a walking bird, to I think I saw something because the grass moved but I really didn't see anything... the latter actually sounds most credible to me.

Now many things in evolution seem impossible as well but we know from fossilized evidence that for a fact they are real. Land animals the once lived in the sea or visa versa seems crazy... but we know things actually do change that much over long amounts of time completely on their own.

So fact is when we leap to super natural in the end we are left with the same exact actual proven knowledge that we have for any other alien life. A lot of places out there in space... could be possible... still have no proof whatsoever though. It's all simple speculation derived from what someone else has told us.

And when you look at that you should really look at this. You see the primitive Taliban culture on TV? You see how they have morphed a religion into everything they do? And when you look at them anyone can see how uninformed & backward their whole shebang really is.

Well they are probably 50 times more knowledgeable about science and natural events than people were back in biblical times.

That's actually a main problem. People look at religious teachings today and just automatically assume how they would interpret the events described. But it wasn't people with our knowledge at all making that interpretation. It was tribal people not to far advanced from cavemen and women.

The fact that we don't agree on what god is like doesn't mean that there isn't one.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The fact that we don't agree on what god is like doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Nor does it mean that there is one.