Prove that God doesn't exist.

[PLC1]

Appeal to mass ignorance merely highlights your on ignorance


Evolution only 'finishes' with extinction.

Again, highlighting your ignorance...

Your answer has nothing to do with the question. Before you go insulting me, better read what I actually posted.

 

[Dr.Who]

Are you ever going to present your demonstration showing that writing caused and/or causes a lesser development of memory, or are you just going to continue evading and posting pathetic ad homs?

I wasn't planning to. After all the sub-topic is just not that important enough and I have adequately demonstrated to an open minded person that today we do not use our memories as thoroughly as people did in the past.

I apologize for the post that appeared to be an attack against you. I meant it literally; that you admitted that you do not use your memory very much because you can write instead. We all do.

 

[Dr.Who]

Can they? Ever dreamed? Mistaken a person's identity? Did a double-take? Ever met a schizophrenic?


How?

No, you don't

You and I both recognize limits to trusting our senses.

Which is of course why the logical argument starts with the assumption that one can trust ones senses. If one can trust ones senses then it has been proven that others exist.

 

[Dr.Who]

And yet, every culture that has ever existed has believed that man has a spirit or soul, and has believed that there is a god, or more likely, gods. It is something that humans seem to know innately, far from having to be indoctrinated to the idea.

Some scientists hypothesize that the human mind is wired to see "God" and thus explain it away. They may or may not be right but they do recognize that it is a universal human experience.

 

[top gun]

Actually, my point is just the opposite. Both people, and their souls do exist. That is also consistent, but not incorrect.

I can't prove that souls exist, you can't prove you exist, yet I think that both you and your soul do exist.

We've been all over this my friend. Being alive can be and is proven to anyone & everyone. A soul on the other hand is a some "believe" some don't and there's absolutely no way of testing it as real like life and death or exist/non-exist. It's something that is story told to come into play after death. As convenient as that may be it is not proof.

Yes, many things happen just due to nature. None of the things you mention have consciousness or intelligence. If it weren't for intelligence, would any of the other incredible forces of nature exist at all?

Certainly could. All things are made up of basic elements. The human body for instance is most made up of water. Over billions or trillions of years of every imaginable thing happening to elements to bend them into different shapes and different directions you eventually get life. Then that life evolves over billions of years to more & more advanced & various species.

I didn't say that the Bible was the direct word of god, in fact, have argued just the opposite on this very forum. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the Bible that says there were no dinosaurs. The Bible was, in fact, written at a time when no one knew anything about dinosaurs, so it doesn't mention them at all.

The pathetic attempt to discredit the existence of dinosaurs millions of years ago is just a way to keep a narrow interpretation of ancient writings alive. It has nothing to do with god.

Nothing "pathetic"... has everything to do with God. You obviously can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the word of God and is his road map or it's not. If you say it's not... then I say we should then disregard it in it's entirety. If you say it is... then you must take the contradictions that can know be proven by science as faults in the "story". The Bible says everything "The heavens & the earth" were created at once. Yet we can prove beyond any doubt dinosaurs were not on earth with man... millions of years off.
This is why Creationist have now bent the rule of truth yet again to say that... Yes dinosaurs wee on earth with man... they were even on the Ark.
It's all made up... believe it anyway you like... but the inconsistencies are more than glaring.

If that is so, then the advanced alien race would be god, wouldn't it?

You're arguing against "god as I know it". I don't know god. No one does.

I'm really saying one is just as ridiculous as the other. Anyone can make up a scary & unprovable story. Heck that's what Halloween ghost stories are all about.

I'm not sure that they say that the conditions of space and all its natural elements evolved, but they do say that life on Earth evolved. What they don't say is that it evolved all on its own. There is no conflict between the theory of evolution and the existence of god.

Moreover, while evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there is one more element that would be necessary for life to have come into existence and evolved intelligence without any guidance. That, of course, is abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis, the genesis of life from non living matter, has never been proven possible.

Well since we haven't tried for trillions of years that's why we haven't found out yet how it happened. But then again we didn't ever believe, thought impossible, we could ever go to the moon or do cloning or any number of other things... yet we now do.

All I'm saying is on a preponderance of the evidence I personally am not swayed to believe in the supernatural.

 

[PLC1]

We've been all over this my friend. Being alive can be and is proven to anyone & everyone. A soul on the other hand is a some "believe" some don't and there's absolutely no way of testing it as real like life and death or exist/non-exist. It's something that is story told to come into play after death. As convenient as that may be it is not proof.

You might be able to prove to yourself that you exist, but you can't prove it to me. All you are are words on a computer screen. Were I to meet you, then you would be sensory input that my brain would interpret as another person. Yet, I have faith to believe that you do exist.

Certainly could. All things are made up of basic elements. The human body for instance is most made up of water. Over billions or trillions of years of every imaginable thing happening to elements to bend them into different shapes and different directions you eventually get life. Then that life evolves over billions of years to more & more advanced & various species.

But, did every imaginable thing just happen, or was there a plan?

Nothing "pathetic"... has everything to do with God. You obviously can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the word of God and is his road map or it's not. If you say it's not... then I say we should then disregard it in it's entirety. If you say it is... then you must take the contradictions that can know be proven by science as faults in the "story". The Bible says everything "The heavens & the earth" were created at once. Yet we can prove beyond any doubt dinosaurs were not on earth with man... millions of years off.
This is why Creationist have now bent the rule of truth yet again to say that... Yes dinosaurs wee on earth with man... they were even on the Ark.
It's all made up... believe it anyway you like... but the inconsistencies are more than glaring.

Even if one accepts that the Bible is just a collection of ancient writings, that doesn't mean that there is no "supernatural", no god. There are many cultures that believe in god, yet not in the Bible. People believed in gods long before the Bible was even thought of.

I'm really saying one is just as ridiculous as the other. Anyone can make up a scary & unprovable story. Heck that's what Halloween ghost stories are all about.

Do you find the existence of god a scary story? I find the idea that there is nothing at all after we die much scarier.

Well since we haven't tried for trillions of years that's why we haven't found out yet how it happened. But then again we didn't ever believe, thought impossible, we could ever go to the moon or do cloning or any number of other things... yet we now do.

We went to the moon, invented the internet, learned about electricity, quantum mechanics, and a multi dimensional universe, but still have never created so much as one bacterium. Abiogenesis has never been proven possible.

All I'm saying is on a preponderance of the evidence I personally am not swayed to believe in the supernatural.

OK, as I've already pointed out, the choice is to believe in the "supernatural", ie souls and a creator god, or to believe that intelligence sprung from non living matter all by itself.

It seems to me that neither premise seems likely, yet one or the other has to be true. I find it much more plausible that intelligence was created by intelligence, or that has always existed and that our time on Earth is just one phase in the existence of our intelligence.

Maybe we helped create the Earth so we could come live here and could experience physical life. I don't know that is the case, but it seems plausible, or at least more plausible than the idea that intelligence sprung up on its own, and dies when the physical body dies.

But, I could be wrong. As I said, there is no proof.

 

[top gun]

You might be able to prove to yourself that you exist, but you can't prove it to me. All you are are words on a computer screen. Were I to meet you, then you would be sensory input that my brain would interpret as another person. Yet, I have faith to believe that you do exist.

You're hurting your case by being purposely silly.

We are (always have been) assuming that the proof is contingent on meeting the person and not just a computer message, and you know that.

We are comparing that meeting of a live person to the faith in an ancient story. There is no comparison from a purely PROOF standard. The meeting is absolute... the story is a tale one chooses to believe or not.

But, did every imaginable thing just happen, or was there a plan?

Just happened. And just because we can't put every building block in place that fact that we can put many in place is what give science credibility. As opposed to a fable or story.

A lot of children (and some adults) believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, vampires and space aliens because there are good stories about them. But a story alone does not make them real.

Even if one accepts that the Bible is just a collection of ancient writings, that doesn't mean that there is no "supernatural", no god. There are many cultures that believe in god, yet not in the Bible. People believed in gods long before the Bible was even thought of.

Exactly! And when you get soooo many completely different versions of something you look for common causes. Common causes like, a need to have rules, a need to control a tribe, a need to explain the unknown, a need to seek superiority over one's enemies.

These are all human responses to stresses not proof of anything supernatural.

Do you find the existence of god a scary story? I find the idea that there is nothing at all after we die much scarier.

I find the idea of a god wonderful. Much like I would find it wonderful if the maple tree in my back yard started having leaves made of hundred dollar bills. But until I see the hundred dollars bills... it's still just a maple tree.

I think you make a decent point here though. People in general as they get older often do start to fear dying. This in some creates an impetus to find religion to calm their fear of this unknown.

We went to the moon, invented the internet, learned about electricity, quantum mechanics, and a multi dimensional universe, but still have never created so much as one bacterium. Abiogenesis has never been proven possible.

Doesn't mean we won't.

Who would of ever though man could "clone" something? We are gaining new knowledge all the time. We have Super Collider research and just unlimited possibilities. When you see the mountain of knowledge gained from biblical times to today by science and extrapolate that out over say the next just 10 or 20 thousand years let along millions of years the knowledge gain is staggering in it's possibilities.

OK, as I've already pointed out, the choice is to believe in the "supernatural", ie souls and a creator god, or to believe that intelligence sprung from non living matter all by itself.

It seems to me that neither premise seems likely, yet one or the other has to be true. I find it much more plausible that intelligence was created by intelligence, or that has always existed and that our time on Earth is just one phase in the existence of our intelligence.

Maybe we helped create the Earth so we could come live here and could experience physical life. I don't know that is the case, but it seems plausible, or at least more plausible than the idea that intelligence sprung up on its own, and dies when the physical body dies.

But, I could be wrong. As I said, there is no proof.

And you are definitely entitled to your opinion. Simply put though to jump to supernatural is not critical thinking... it's saying I don't have a clue, so it must be magic.

I'm sure you can understand why not everyone buys into magic. That being the case we simply await proof.

 

[PLC1]

You're hurting your case by being purposely silly.

We are (always have been) assuming that the proof is contingent on meeting the person and not just a computer message, and you know that.

We are comparing that meeting of a live person to the faith in an ancient story. There is no comparison from a purely PROOF standard. The meeting is absolute... the story is a tale one chooses to believe or not.

No, I am comparing the belief without proof that you exist with the belief without proof that our souls exist. Why would anyone question whether you exist? Yet, we do question whether or not we have souls. The proof is in the fact that we are animated, have a will, a consciousness. That such things can simply spring from inanimate matter all on their own, even over millions of years, is simply more difficult to believe than it is to believe that humans are actually immortal spirits that inhabit bodies that were created for that purpose.

Just happened. And just because we can't put every building block in place that fact that we can put many in place is what give science credibility. As opposed to a fable or story.

A lot of children (and some adults) believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunnies, vampires and space aliens because there are good stories about them. But a story alone does not make them real.

Of course, there are lots of stories about a lot of things. The question is, if Easter Bunnies don't exist, what is the alternative? Does one have to believe in impossible things in order to disbelieve Easter bunnies? I don't think we do.

Yet, what is so difficult about space aliens? If your hypothesis about intelligence having simply sprung up unbidden on Earth is correct, why would it not have done the same elsewhere? What is so unique about Earth?

If mine about humans being spirits in possession of bodies made for that purpose is true, then why wouldn't god, or gods have created other worlds? Again, what is unique about Earth?

Of course, thinking that said aliens have somehow managed to visit the Earth does take quite a leap of faith.

Exactly! And when you get soooo many completely different versions of something you look for common causes. Common causes like, a need to have rules, a need to control a tribe, a need to explain the unknown, a need to seek superiority over one's enemies.

These are all human responses to stresses not proof of anything supernatural.

Perhaps so, perhaps not. Since we don't know what god is like, it is natural that there would be many versions.

I find the idea of a god wonderful. Much like I would find it wonderful if the maple tree in my back yard started having leaves made of hundred dollar bills. But until I see the hundred dollars bills... it's still just a maple tree.

I think you make a decent point here though. People in general as they get older often do start to fear dying. This in some creates an impetus to find religion to calm their fear of this unknown.

Some people begin to wonder what death is all about at a much earlier age. How many parents tell their child that that dead puppy is just gone, no longer exists, and they themselves will one day simply cease to be?

Doesn't mean we won't.

There is no proof that science won't find a way to make that maple tree you talk about sprout $100 bills as leaves, either. In fact, given the science of genetic engineering, it is more plausible than abiogenesis being proven.

Who would of ever though man could "clone" something? We are gaining new knowledge all the time. We have Super Collider research and just unlimited possibilities. When you see the mountain of knowledge gained from biblical times to today by science and extrapolate that out over say the next just 10 or 20 thousand years let along millions of years the knowledge gain is staggering in it's possibilities.

Yes, it most certainly is. when you think of the fact that scientific progress is happening on a geometric curve, it is impossible to imagine what might be accomplished in the next hundred years, let alone the next thousand or million.

The human race could become like gods and actually create worlds!

And you are definitely entitled to your opinion. Simply put though to jump to supernatural is not critical thinking... it's saying I don't have a clue, so it must be magic.

I'm sure you can understand why not everyone buys into magic. That being the case we simply await proof.

The magic would be intelligence having sprung from non living matter all by itself. That is the most unbelievable magic trick of all.

 

[top gun]

No, I am comparing the belief without proof that you exist with the belief without proof that our souls exist. Why would anyone question whether you exist? Yet, we do question whether or not we have souls. The proof is in the fact that we are animated, have a will, a consciousness. That such things can simply spring from inanimate matter all on their own, even over millions of years, is simply more difficult to believe than it is to believe that humans are actually immortal spirits that inhabit bodies that were created for that purpose.

Dude... you're a good man... but that makes no sense from a PROOF standpoint. All you are doing is trying to twist a belief into a fact... and you need much more than that.

Of course, there are lots of stories about a lot of things. The question is, if Easter Bunnies don't exist, what is the alternative? Does one have to believe in impossible things in order to disbelieve Easter bunnies? I don't think we do.

It's an example of a story that one believes whole heartedly until they learn more about it. That's the parable here.

Yet, what is so difficult about space aliens? If your hypothesis about intelligence having simply sprung up unbidden on Earth is correct, why would it not have done the same elsewhere? What is so unique about Earth?

It's actually more likely than a God in my opinion.

If mine about humans being spirits in possession of bodies made for that purpose is true, then why wouldn't god, or gods have created other worlds? Again, what is unique about Earth?

Again... I simply await a single grain of evidence.

Of course, thinking that said aliens have somehow managed to visit the Earth does take quite a leap of faith.

I agree...

Perhaps so, perhaps not. Since we don't know what god is like, it is natural that there would be many versions.

HE'S GOD!!! Hell everyone on every corner of the globe knows who Elvis is... but GOD????? that's a wildly changing adventure.

Some people begin to wonder what death is all about at a much earlier age. How many parents tell their child that that dead puppy is just gone, no longer exists, and they themselves will one day simply cease to be?

Sure... but the "PANIC" usually comes in at older ages when one is closer to death themselves.

There is no proof that science won't find a way to make that maple tree you talk about sprout $100 bills as leaves, either. In fact, given the science of genetic engineering, it is more plausible than abiogenesis being proven.

We shall see. But until it does... I'm a skeptic.

Yes, it most certainly is. when you think of the fact that scientific progress is happening on a geometric curve, it is impossible to imagine what might be accomplished in the next hundred years, let alone the next thousand or million.

The human race could become like gods and actually create worlds!

The whole "god" thing is a bad analogy and one I'd probably rather not follow. Being a superior power can be as bad as it is good. We'd still be humans and being human brings it's own set of problems.

The magic would be intelligence having sprung from non living matter all by itself. That is the most unbelievable magic trick of all.

I realize that's the spin you'd like people to believe but you're not convincing me. Running to the mystical supernatural magical has been proven time & time & time again to be the illogical nature of primitive minds.

All those primitive tribes believed in their Witch Doctor 100% too. The only thing different (and quite natural) is you are saying... But this is my belief and it is the true one!

Take care my friend.

 

[PLC1]

Dude... you're a good man... but that makes no sense from a PROOF standpoint. All you are doing is trying to twist a belief into a fact... and you need much more than that.

I'm just pointing out that we often believe things with no proof, mostly because the opposite is less credible than the thing we choose to believe.

It's actually more likely than a God in my opinion.

That's your opinion. Mine is that intelligence having come from non living matter all on its own is the least credible option.

Again... I simply await a single grain of evidence.

There are as many grains as there are that abiogenesis gave rise to life, and that life evolved intelligence all on its own with no guidance or purpose. There is plenty of proof for evolution, as I'm sure you're ready to point out, but none that abiogenesis is even possible, and none that the process of evolution was not started and guided along.

I agree...

Then, you'd be right!

HE'S GOD!!! Hell everyone on every corner of the globe knows who Elvis is... but GOD????? that's a wildly changing adventure.

Maybe we're not supposed to know what god is like. If he/she/they don't want us to know just yet, how are we going to find out?

Maybe if god were to don an outlandish costume and sing songs we like, then he'd be as well known as Elvis.

Sure... but the "PANIC" usually comes in at older ages when one is closer to death themselves.

Yes, and in foxholes as well. Have you heard the old saw about there being no atheists in foxholes? Maybe when death becomes real, then we seriously begin to think about souls and god.

We shall see. But until it does... I'm a skeptic.

I'm skeptical, too, but I'm even more skeptical of the premise of intelligence having come about all on its own.

The whole "god" thing is a bad analogy and one I'd probably rather not follow. Being a superior power can be as bad as it is good. We'd still be humans and being human brings it's own set of problems.

We would definitely need social progress to match our technological progress. We're a long way from being gods. A kindergartner is a long way from being a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon, too, but some of them will be.

I realize that's the spin you'd like people to believe but you're not convincing me. Running to the mystical supernatural magical has been proven time & time & time again to be the illogical nature of primitive minds.

All those primitive tribes believed in their Witch Doctor 100% too. The only thing different (and quite natural) is you are saying... But this is my belief and it is the true one!

And yet, there is no real evidence for that, either.

Well, OK, you stick with your impossible theory, and I'll stick with mine. Surely, you can see that one impossible theory or the other has to be correct. The difference is, if I'm right, I'll be able to find you one day and say, "I told you so." If you're right, you won't have that satisfaction.

Take care my friend.

Yes, and you too. Remember, life is short. If your premise is correct, you'd better make as much of it as you can, and take care not to cut it even shorter in some way.

 

[Daugnero]

I have a couple opinions on God and Creation.

1. ( I don't necessarily believe this one but it's a possibility.) God is just a figure used to explain our unexplicable creation. They can't just say we just were because people are just going to keep wondering further and further. No matter what we say created whom or what, that object is eventually going to have to add up to something. So instead of people going mad about where we came from, we stick to a simple but well explained being: God.
2. The "Big Bang' theory as we all know is more of a scientific explanation that not even scientists themselves can figure out. That's all I can say about that one.
Basically, we have no way of knowing where life or just plain matter came from. Unless by some Critically small chance we find proof of God, we're just going to have to stick with what we got.
3. I myself believe that God is real. He just was. Now, most of you will say, "Nothing can't just be!" Well whats so different about the big bang theory than God? I actually find God more logical because there's actually a cause to something created.
I believe God is real and also think that he made all these scientific probabilities to ensure that we will never know he exists untill Judgement Day. He is, as told in the bible, the perfect being.
God is actually so smart, that he can make, what you can consider, a distraction. I say we get over the arguement of, "Does God Exist" because it's obvious, we will never find the true answer, and if we were to, it would be from God himself. There's something human beings just can't do and we need to accept that. We're not perfect like the God we talk about. Live with it.

 

[dahermit]

It is not believers vs. atheists; there are agnostics and deists also in the mix. Have you considered deist theory? That a God exists but does not react to prayer, or even aware, care, about humans.

www.themystica.org/mystica/articles/d/deism.html

 

[Gipper]

How about we change the question to this:

When you die, what do you think happens to you?

Many believe nothing happens and that it all ends when you die. Others like myself, believe in an after life. You?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

How about we change the question to this:

When you die, what do you think happens to you?

Many believe nothing happens and that it all ends when you die. Others like myself, believe in an after life. You?

I think that no one knows. Many of us have opinions or hopes, but there is nothing to prove anyone's claim to KNOW.

 

[PLC1]

I think that no one knows. Many of us have opinions or hopes, but there is nothing to prove anyone's claim to KNOW.

Correct, no one knows. I believe that our life on Earth is just a part of our total existence, and that we are an immortal spirit in charge of a mortal body. One day, the body will die, and we will be freed to go on to the next existence.,

I can't prove that, of course, but then no one can prove me wrong either.

If I'm right, however, I will have the satisfaction of looking up everyone who says that this life is all there is, and saying, "I told you so."

If they're right, on the other hand, they'll never know it.