Prove that God doesn't exist.

Does God exist?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 63 59.4%
  • No.

    Votes: 44 41.5%

  • Total voters
    106
You never stipulated "morally true", what you said was, "And when have I ever claimed something to be true just because it is written in the bible, eh?" You can't remember from one post to the next what you wrote. Poor Nums, must be tough being you.

Yikes!

Even as a point of historical accuracy, I never claimed any event to be so simply because it was written in the bible. Any rational individual knows that you need an objective and independent corroboration to state the historical accuracy of a certain event -- whether it is written in the bible or not.

Your grasping at straws and you don't even know it.

Duh?

Well you got part of it right, you have intellectual rigor mortis.

And sadly enough, you are loosing in any and all points you'd care to debate me in.

Duh?

So, what you are saying is that you haven't actually read the Bible and don't know what's in it? I'm not surprised, most Christians just bleat the cant and don't even begin to think for themselves. Get a copy of the Bible and a Concordance, do a little research, find out what is really in the Bible--I think you'll be surprised.

Nonsense.

You wish to interpret the bible on your own and without even the guidelines by which catholics or even christians interpret it.

So, the error is entirely your own.

Duh?
 
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A few historical facts don't carry the whole book, Nums, the moral truth of the book is partly true, but the genocide, rape, murder, kidnapping, etc. are not part of that moral truth and should be removed from the Bible.

What unbelieveable nonsense.

For the most part, the ot is part of the christian bible to demonstrate salvation history.

If you simply removed 'rape, murder and kidnapping' from the bible -- the millieu in which salvation history proceeded, then what is there to save people from, hmmmm?

Honestly, I cannot find much sense in your opinions.

I suspect that all relationships with God are subjective and unique to each person. What's wrong with that? Nothing, until one tries to make everyone else abide by what you have subjectively experienced. Or if you try to make everyone behave according to the soi distant mores of a bygone era and the subjective rules written down by nomadic goat-herders.

Because christianity is in the business of teaching moral truths. There can be no moral truth if morality is entirely subjective.

You of all people should know that. You have been rabidly arguing for the moral truth found in homosexual ass, haven't you? And from where does this particular 'moral truth' come from, if not from your subjective 'it feels good', hmmm?

I corrected a birth defect that had prevented me from being myself for nearly 50 years.

Defect? The genes you inherited from your parents clearly meant for you to have a fully functional penis -- as do the genes of roughly half of the human population.

The defect is entirely in your inclinations.
 
Haven't you heard of ontology?

No, I hadn't, so I looked it up. It appears to be similar to the argument of a tree falling in the forest and making no sound if no one is there to hear it sort of idea. Since we humans have conceived of god, there must be a god because we perceive there to be one.

I must say, that is an interesting philosophical argument, maybe one I can use next time I'm discussing religion with an atheist. It is not scientific proof, of course.

And this purpose, survival, is being done against the tendency of entropy.

Yes, it is, which is more evidence for a creator. I've used that same argument myself, but without swaying any of the strictly scientific, there has to be empirical proof sorts of people.

The fact remains, however, that none of the above constitutes empirical proof that could begin to satisfy science.

Science remains in one category, philosophy in quite another.
 
Yikes!ven as a point of historical accuracy, I never claimed any event to be so simply because it was written in the bible. Any rational individual knows that you need an objective and independent corroboration to state the historical accuracy of a certain event -- whether it is written in the bible or not.Your grasping at straws and you don't even know it.Duh?And sadly enough, you are loosing in any and all points you'd care to debate me in.Duh?Nonsense.

You wish to interpret the bible on your own and without even the guidelines by which catholics or even christians interpret it.

It might be good for you to do your own thinking instead of letting the Pope and his buddies do it for you. The interpretations of others are what have led to the Christian religion splintering into more than 4000 different sects--two per year since the time of Christ. Allowing other people to do your thinking for you has lead Christians into Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings, Joan of Arc being burned at the stake, wars, genocide, and most recently the sheltering of pedophile priests by the Catholic Church.

Any rational individual knows that you need an objective and independent corroboration to state the historical accuracy of a certain event..."
Yes, we agree, and that's why I don't accept much of what's in the Bible: there is no independent corroboration.
 
If you simply removed 'rape, murder and kidnapping' from the bible -- the millieu in which salvation history proceeded, then what is there to save people from, hmmmm?
There is plenty to save people from, we don't need God-ordered rape, genocide, baby killing, etc. Those are the things to which I have refered. I don't think God did any of those things, do you? Do you really believe that God ordered genocide? Rape of vanquished foes wives? The kidnapping and rape of virgins as spoils of war?

You of all people should know that. You have been rabidly arguing for the moral truth found in homosexual ass, haven't you? And from where does this particular 'moral truth' come from, if not from your subjective 'it feels good', hmmm?
It's kind of funny in a way that you are soooo FIXATED on homosexual ass. One might suspect that your interest wasn't entirely intellectual. Can you grasp the simple fact that I am not a homosexual? That I've never had sex with a man? No, you probably can't, oh well, some people just don't have the mental horsepower to deal with reality.

Defect? The genes you inherited from your parents clearly meant for you to have a fully functional penis -- as do the genes of roughly half of the human population.

The defect is entirely in your inclinations.
Do you have any education in biology? Do you know what a birth defect is? Do you know that the AMA has been treating the transsexual birth defect successfully for more than 30 years?

It always tickles me when someone announces that all it takes to be a man is to have a penis. Part of the problem in the world today is that very fallacious concept: penis=man. Nums, did you know that besides the visible sex organs, that there are other sex organs and sexual characteristics out of sight INSIDE the body? Really! One of these characteristics is the distribution of hormone receptors, that is, receptor sites throughout the body that allow estrogen or testosterone to bind and interact with the body systems. There can be a dichotomy, a division, in which the body will have testosterone receptor sites but the brain will have estrogen receptor sites, this is a birth defect caused by hormonal problems during pre-natal development. Babies born this way can have all kinds of mixed sexual characteristics, no visible sex organs, both sets of sex organs, parts of both sets of sex organs, or visible male sex organs but female sex organs inside the body (and vice versa), or any of a wide range of other problems related to sexual equipment and develpment thereof. Do you think that these birth defects are because of the baby's "inclinations"?

It took nearly 20 years for me to go through puberty, I've never had anything like normal hormone levels in my body for either sex. My body has testosterone receptors and my brain has estrogen receptors. Simple tests administered by doctors can confirm this. We can't change the brain because we don't have the technology, but we can change the body to match the brain, hence we have sexual reassignment surgery to make the body match the brain as closely as we can.

All of your less than tasteful comments about homosexuality and feces are entirely your own invention because transsexuality is not about sexual orientation, it's about gender identity. Sex is between your legs, but gender is inside your head. This is another area in which you should do your own thinking because the Catholic Church is about 200 years behind the rest of the world on this subject.
 
numinus is one of our smartest bigots, Mare. Christian 'love' at its most perverse.

Yeah, but maybe his wife thinks he's cuddly. If he's married that is. I actually don't have an active dislike for Nums, he's capable of thinking but--like all of us--sometimes he doesn't.

The Catholic inculcation has to be a real stumbling block for him when it comes to creative or independent thought. I tend to challenge him too abruptly sometimes, I think, and he lashes back in sort of a knee-jerk fashion. His antipathy towards gay guys seems a bit over the top but he's never said anything negative about lesbians so I suspect he's a normal heterosexual male with the usual prurient double standard.
 
Your nationality has nothing to do with how effective you use your rational faculties. As a matter of demographics, americans are less likely to use them as compared to say -- indians, singaporeans and japanese.

Oh, and no one needs to force anything to you because your own ignorance is doing that well enough.

No... but one's location in America does allow one to have the right to not be burdened by someone else's chosen fable.

Duh?

That's quite true for everyone. Unlike everyone, though, you're having a bit of trouble as to why you believe your nonsense in the first place.

Should have just stopped at "Duh". You had nothing after that.

When I hear a man preach, I like to see him act as if he were fighting bees.
Abraham Lincoln


By a preponderance of evidence, you say??????

And what evidence do you imagine, supports your idea that matter and energy spontaneously existed out of nothing -- consequently forming the universe we see today, hmmmm?

Evidence, indeed! You wouldn't know what evidence looks like if it sat on your face.

Ah, but I forget. You don't know jack****.

Exactly... not everything has to be explained by science (although most things have and are provable & testable in a common track of knowledge) when on the other side it's... just believe me I was told this story.

That's a perponderance... the fact or quality of being preponderant; superiority in weight, power, numbers, etc.


Not if it instantaneously damages your central nervous system -- then you wouldn't feel a god-damned thing. Duh?

As demonstrated, you don't know jack**** from what is or isn't.

You don't have to be hit by the bus yourself because others have and survived to tell about it hence connecting the occurrence to scientific & medical knowledge.

The yarn you're trying to spin would be if no one ever survived a bus accident so you just pull out of thin air... The bus hitting the person felt good because God sent it.:D


No wonder your panties are up in a knot over religion. You're grasp of it is confined to the kindergarten version. Why a grown person wishes to subject the kindergarten version to logical rigor in the first place is, quite frankly, beyond me.

Duh?

Yet again with the lost in space "Duh"!:D

Stick with that because...

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln


Nonsense.

There are two kinds of knowledge, as far as epistemology is concerned. There is demonstrable and logical.

Most of what we know is a combination of both. The defect in your 'knowledge', if you can even call it that, is in your incompetent use of the rules of logic.

The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.
Abraham Lincoln


And I suppose age has something to do with truth-value, eh? No wonder you are confused. You don't have the rational faculties to discern what is or isn't valid knowledge. You see some new nonsense by the current ***** and automatically think it is better just because its new.

When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.
Abraham Lincoln


Nobody is getting upset about what you do or don't believe. When you post your nonsense in the public domain, however, rational people feel duty bound to point it out as such.

You have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was.
Abraham Lincoln
:D
 
No, I hadn't, so I looked it up. It appears to be similar to the argument of a tree falling in the forest and making no sound if no one is there to hear it sort of idea. Since we humans have conceived of god, there must be a god because we perceive there to be one.

Of course not.

What ontology is trying to say is that everything that we know to be true can't possibly be without a god -- either in the form of a first cause, a frist motion, a necessary existence etc. etc.

Perception has nothing to do with it. And the conclusion is inescapable.

I must say, that is an interesting philosophical argument, maybe one I can use next time I'm discussing religion with an atheist. It is not scientific proof, of course.

It is, for the most part, intuitive.

An example of the truth-value of this form of reasoning is democritus' idea that substance is made up of units that are indivisible -- which he called the atom. Long after we have known that atoms are not the smallest indivisible unit of substance, the idea lives on as quantum theory.

One cannot divide substance indefinitely simply because the consequence of such a thing is illogical -- even if we do not know what the nature of quanta really is.

Yes, it is, which is more evidence for a creator. I've used that same argument myself, but without swaying any of the strictly scientific, there has to be empirical proof sorts of people.

That is old science -- the science of the ignorant who still cling to the idea of a mechanistic 'clockwork' universe. The thing about it is that it has been relegated to academic obscurity and replaced with relativity and quantum theory.

Both subjects are a stone's throw away from the boundary between physics and metaphysics -- hence one cannot study them without at least contemplating on their inevitable consequences.

The fact remains, however, that none of the above constitutes empirical proof that could begin to satisfy science.

That is so amusing, I cannot help but be reminded of one of my favorite literary characters -- sherlock holmes (although I much prefer the character of his not-so-popular brother, mycroft).

When one has eliminated the most probable explanations, whatever remains, though improbable, MUST BE TRUE.

Science remains in one category, philosophy in quite another.

Correct.

And what logical tool, do you suppose, should one use for an inquiry into the divine?
 
It might be good for you to do your own thinking instead of letting the Pope and his buddies do it for you. The interpretations of others are what have led to the Christian religion splintering into more than 4000 different sects--two per year since the time of Christ. Allowing other people to do your thinking for you has lead Christians into Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings, Joan of Arc being burned at the stake, wars, genocide, and most recently the sheltering of pedophile priests by the Catholic Church.

This is patent nonsense.

I'm not in the habit of believing everything the pope says -- only those that are logical.

Unfortunately for you, the pope's positions that you happily criticize happen to be the most logical things he had said.

Yes, we agree, and that's why I don't accept much of what's in the Bible: there is no independent corroboration.

The bible wasn't meant to be read as a historical document. How many more times do I need to say this before you give yourself leave to understand, hmmm?

Council of nicea, indeed!
 
There is plenty to save people from, we don't need God-ordered rape, genocide, baby killing, etc. Those are the things to which I have refered. I don't think God did any of those things, do you? Do you really believe that God ordered genocide? Rape of vanquished foes wives? The kidnapping and rape of virgins as spoils of war?

As a matter of fact, I don't.

What I do know is that the hebrews during that time were incapable of separating religious imperatives with political necessities.

That is why I'm happy to be a christian rather than a jew. At least I don't need to justify the torah with my moral sensibilities.

It's kind of funny in a way that you are soooo FIXATED on homosexual ass. One might suspect that your interest wasn't entirely intellectual. Can you grasp the simple fact that I am not a homosexual? That I've never had sex with a man? No, you probably can't, oh well, some people just don't have the mental horsepower to deal with reality.

And you would rather my remark be about homosexual ass, wouldn't you? At least you can intellectually deal with what you percieve to be a homophobe.

What you cannot deal with is that I am not a homophobe, and that remark was about your MORAL RELATIVITY.

Try dealing with that.

Do you have any education in biology? Do you know what a birth defect is? Do you know that the AMA has been treating the transsexual birth defect successfully for more than 30 years?

It always tickles me when someone announces that all it takes to be a man is to have a penis. Part of the problem in the world today is that very fallacious concept: penis=man. Nums, did you know that besides the visible sex organs, that there are other sex organs and sexual characteristics out of sight INSIDE the body? Really! One of these characteristics is the distribution of hormone receptors, that is, receptor sites throughout the body that allow estrogen or testosterone to bind and interact with the body systems. There can be a dichotomy, a division, in which the body will have testosterone receptor sites but the brain will have estrogen receptor sites, this is a birth defect caused by hormonal problems during pre-natal development. Babies born this way can have all kinds of mixed sexual characteristics, no visible sex organs, both sets of sex organs, parts of both sets of sex organs, or visible male sex organs but female sex organs inside the body (and vice versa), or any of a wide range of other problems related to sexual equipment and develpment thereof. Do you think that these birth defects are because of the baby's "inclinations"?

It took nearly 20 years for me to go through puberty, I've never had anything like normal hormone levels in my body for either sex. My body has testosterone receptors and my brain has estrogen receptors. Simple tests administered by doctors can confirm this. We can't change the brain because we don't have the technology, but we can change the body to match the brain, hence we have sexual reassignment surgery to make the body match the brain as closely as we can.

All of your less than tasteful comments about homosexuality and feces are entirely your own invention because transsexuality is not about sexual orientation, it's about gender identity. Sex is between your legs, but gender is inside your head. This is another area in which you should do your own thinking because the Catholic Church is about 200 years behind the rest of the world on this subject.

A cursory google search brought this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

Many transgender people do not regard their own cross-gender feelings and behaviors as a disorder. People within the transgender community often question what a "normal" gender identity or "normal" gender role is supposed to be. One argument is that gender characteristics are socially constructed[citation needed] and therefore naturally unrelated to biological sex.[citation needed] This perspective often notes that other cultures, particularly historical ones, valued gender roles that would presently suggest homosexuality or transsexuality as normal behavior.[5] Some people see "transgendering" as a means for deconstructing gender. However, not all transgender people wish to deconstruct gender or feel that they are doing so.

Other transgender people object to the classification of GID as a mental disorder on the grounds that there may be a physical cause, as suggested by recent studies about the brains of transsexual people. Many of them[who?] also point out that the treatment for this disorder consists primarily of physical modifications to bring the body into harmony with one's perception of mental (psychological, emotional) gender identity, rather than vice versa.[6]

Although evidence suggests that transgender behavior has a neurological basis, critics of GID denomination say there is no scientific consensus on whether the cause of transgenderism is mental or physical.[7]

In a landmark publication in December 2002, the British Lord Chancellor's office published a Government Policy Concerning Transsexual People document that categorically states "What transsexualism is not...It is not a mental illness."[8] In May 2009 the government of France has also declared that a transsexual gender identity is not a psychiatric condition in France. [9]

Some people[10] feel that the deletion of homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM-III and the ensuing creation of the GID diagnosis was merely sleight of hand by psychiatrists, who changed the focus of the diagnosis from the deviant desire (of the same sex) to the subversive identity (or the belief/desire for membership of the opposite sex/gender).[11] People who believe this tend to point out that the same idea is found in both diagnoses, that the patient is not a "normal" male or female. As Kelley Winters (pen-name Katharine Wilson), an advocate for GID reform put it, "Behaviors that would be ordinary or even exemplary for gender-conforming boys and girls are presented as symptomatic of mental disorder for gender nonconforming children."[7] However, Zucker and Spitzer[12] argue that GID was included in the DSM-III (7 years after homosexuality was removed from the DSM-II) because it "met the generally accepted criteria used by the framers of DSM-III for inclusion".

The GID controversy figured prominently at the 2009 meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in San Francisco, both in presentations in the meeting and in protests outside the meeting; protesters focused on the attitude of the psychiatric community and tried to make the point that GID is not a mental disorder, as well focusing on the role of Kenneth Zucker in leading the DSM-V Task Force on Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders.[13]

Notice how your opinions about homosexuality and transgender flip-flop from one side of the controversy to the other?

If you really want to discuss this more thoroughly, you should create a new thread, though -- rather than ranting catholic this, catholic that, to whatever angry and hateful feelings you are currently experiencing.
 
Yeah, but maybe his wife thinks he's cuddly. If he's married that is.

Cuddly would be the last thing my wife thinks of me.

I actually don't have an active dislike for Nums, he's capable of thinking but--like all of us--sometimes he doesn't.

Nonsense.

Thinking is what I do. I even get paid for it.

The Catholic inculcation has to be a real stumbling block for him when it comes to creative or independent thought.

You do not know half of it.

I remember my college girlfriend, a philo major. We would attend mass every sunday and spend the entire time (sometimes even after the mass has ended) at the back pew criticizing the priest's sermon and catholicism in general.

Heck, I could criticize catholicism here, if you wish. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with your pet rants.

I tend to challenge him too abruptly sometimes, I think, and he lashes back in sort of a knee-jerk fashion. His antipathy towards gay guys seems a bit over the top but he's never said anything negative about lesbians so I suspect he's a normal heterosexual male with the usual prurient double standard.

Nonsense.

I don't have problems with gays. I have lots of gay friends. A close friend of mine secretly disclosed a homosexual episode when he was younger. I don't recall thinking anything of it -- until now.

If you want to hear some 'prurient double standard' about lesbians though, you should talk with my wife. She has a masters in psychology -- well, not exactly -- she needs to do her thesis, which I don't think she has the time, patience or inclination for presently.

She's got a year's worth of field study on homosexuality. She'll probably hand back your ass, along with all your psychological claptrap.
 
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No... but one's location in America does allow one to have the right to not be burdened by someone else's chosen fable.

Quite right. You have all the freedom in america, even the freedom to be utterly ignorant.

Duh?

Should have just stopped at "Duh". You had nothing after that.

When I hear a man preach, I like to see him act as if he were fighting bees.
Abraham Lincoln

What calcified ignorance you must have! Even when you are being taught what agnosticism really is, you still resist.

A piece of advice -- before you go in the public domain claiming you're an agnostic, make sure you know exactly what that position means, hmmm.

Duh?

Exactly... not everything has to be explained by science (although most things have and are provable & testable in a common track of knowledge) when on the other side it's... just believe me I was told this story.

That's a perponderance... the fact or quality of being preponderant; superiority in weight, power, numbers, etc.

Yep. Thats what preponderanc means. And if you have perused any of the scientific papers published recently, very few are supported by a 'preponderance of evidence'.

Duh?

You don't have to be hit by the bus yourself because others have and survived to tell about it hence connecting the occurrence to scientific & medical knowledge.

The yarn you're trying to spin would be if no one ever survived a bus accident so you just pull out of thin air... The bus hitting the person felt good because God sent it.:D

The feeling associated when one is hit by a bus is an ENTIRELY sensory experience, hence ENTIRE SUBJECTIVE.

You do not even have the common sense to extract that simple point in that simple example.

Agnostic, indeed!

Yet again with the lost in space "Duh"!:D

Stick with that because...

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Abraham Lincoln

Seeing that you are criticizing the kindergarten version of christianity in an otherwise adult discussion, I can see how that quote applies to you.

Duh?

The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.
Abraham Lincoln

At least abe had the intellectual fortitude to state his belief in no uncertain terms.

That is why atheists are morons and agnostics, doubly so. You don't even want to know what I think of pretend-agnostics.

Duh?

When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.
Abraham Lincoln

That is generally what 'a moral good is its own reward' means if pretend-agnostics can stop acting the part for just an instant and actually use the gray matter between their ears.

Duh?

You have to do your own growing no matter how tall your grandfather was.
Abraham Lincoln
:D

All the while you are criticizing me for not thinking for myself.

Pweh!
 
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