My Ideas for American Renewal

[Bunz]

People in Canada who need an MRI have up to an eight month wait. In the UK's NHS, "rules" are established based on that year's budget. Eg, in a given year, a 55 year old who needs a heart transplant will be told to go home (and die) because "nothing can be done". Ie, nothing WILL be done - because of that fiscal year's "rules". There is a growing phenomenon of "medical tourism" in the UK - some of its citizens take holidays to other countries, eg India, to get medical treatment they need because they'd prefer not to die for only NHS budgetary reasons.

I am aware of the pitfalls and said before that no system is perfect. I think the other systems are better in many ways, because even though people might need to wait, it is still affordable. Right now in America people arent getting to the doctor to find out they need a MRI or heart transplant because they cant afford the initial visit.
I have health care provided in this country free of charge, if I break my leg walking down the stairs, I go to the hospital and come out in crutches and a cast, no charge.
I need a root canal, I go get it done. Might have to wait, but it still gets done. The real tragedy of our medical industry is that those without insurance dont bother.

The canadian system exists on pararsitism off the US system. People who need surgery and need it now head for the US border. Heard of the cheap medicines in Canada? That's because the Canadian health system demands and get steep discounts from US phamaceutical companies. The US citizens who pay high prices are subsidizing the Canadian system. Socialized systems result in only one thing - rationing - no ifs buts or maybes. The cure for the US system is as I broadly outlined.

Again, the problem with what you outlined is that people cant afford it. Bottom line. It would be prohibitively expensive for me to provide private medical insurance for myself and family.
As for the Canadian system, I disagree with your notion of about perscription drugs, we are funding the drug company advertisement campaigns and shareholder dividends more than anything.

 

[Bunz]

Still waiting to hear why. The only "arguments" I've heard so far are propaganda bits from the teacher' union playbooks; confused remarks from people who irrationally think there is a conflict between profit-driven companies and doing a good job, when precisely the opposite is true; and invalid extrapolations of the tiny private school systems that exist now to the nature of a universal private system.

Well the first argument I will provide is my state's constitution which states clearly the mandates of funding from state government. Among others, are public education, public safety and transportation.
People already pay for thier child's education and thier own through taxes. I dont think profit driven companies are bad, not at all, it is just some of them are better suited to be run by non-profit motivated entities IMO. No matter if I am paying through taxes or direct tuition, I want every dollar spent to go towards education. Not to the corporate offices and shareholders of yet another government contractor whose motivation is profit and whose accountability is not to the citizens they serve, but instead to the stockholders who "own" said company.

 

[Bunz]

Parents. The education of poor children would be paid for by the taxpayers.

Again, they already do, through thier taxes. If those wealthy enough, or for ideology reasons choose to put thier children through a private school, I have no problem with that.

Why do you THINK people have hate towards teacher unions? They've seen to it that incompetent teachers are almost impossible to fire.

Now you are painting a vast group whose far majority are effective professionals in with a very small group of incompetants. Surely they are out there, same goes for any profession.

You got my vote - the sweeheart retirement deals negotiated by their unions have almost bankrupted the county where I live - they can retire after 20 years with a pension 90% of their salary. Are you going to get that deal???

Thanks for your vote, and I used the police and fire unions as an example. I am one who thinks that if you put your life and limb on the line for the fellow citizens of your community for 20 years or more you need to be compensated for those sacrafices.
So do we want qualified and professional teachers, police and fire? If the answer is yes, then we need be ready to compensate them for that work. If not, then expect a signifigant downturn in those services.

 

[Andy]

I am aware of the pitfalls and said before that no system is perfect. I think the other systems are better in many ways, because even though people might need to wait, it is still affordable. Right now in America people arent getting to the doctor to find out they need a MRI or heart transplant because they cant afford the initial visit.
I have health care provided in this country free of charge, if I break my leg walking down the stairs, I go to the hospital and come out in crutches and a cast, no charge.
I need a root canal, I go get it done. Might have to wait, but it still gets done. The real tragedy of our medical industry is that those without insurance dont bother.

I am about to use a dirty word. "Responsibility" As in... Personal Responsibility. Everyone should know they need at least basic health insurance, which isn't too expensive. The problem is people would rather blow their money on beer, night clubs, smokes, drugs, cable TV, high speed net, an expensive car, lotto tickets, and a million other frivolous things they don't need. Now there is nothing wrong with (most of) those things when you have the money, but when you do not, and you need health insurance, then you break your foot... I have no sympathy, and you don't deserve health care on my tax money. Get a job and buy health insurance.

Again, the problem with what you outlined is that people cant afford it. Bottom line. It would be prohibitively expensive for me to provide private medical insurance for myself and family.
As for the Canadian system, I disagree with your notion of about perscription drugs, we are funding the drug company advertisement campaigns and shareholder dividends more than anything.

Oh please... I so wish someone would educate people. Do you not understand the right now the US is leading the world in medical improvements because our private corporations spend billions every year to develop better drugs that help improve our lives? In socialize medicine, the first thing to go is research and development. Look at any country with socialized medicine and the medical breakthroughs are near zero. In France, it is so bad the companies pulled up the roots and left the country. Need the latest heart medicine? Too bad, not even available to you with or without money. Well you please go read some of the investors reports, instead of what some dumb communist thinks the drug companies are doing.

 

[Bunz]

I am about to use a dirty word. "Responsibility" As in... Personal Responsibility. Everyone should know they need at least basic health insurance, which isn't too expensive. The problem is people would rather blow their money on beer, night clubs, smokes, drugs, cable TV, high speed net, an expensive car, lotto tickets, and a million other frivolous things they don't need. Now there is nothing wrong with (most of) those things when you have the money, but when you do not, and you need health insurance, then you break your foot... I have no sympathy, and you don't deserve health care on my tax money. Get a job and buy health insurance.

Ah the old not on my tax nickel argument, because I am holier than thou, I can pass judgement on what ones spending priorities should be.
Ill tell you what, I refuse to have my tax dollars line the pockets of CEOs of major corporations, and I dont want my tax dollars to displace Iraqis and further bloodshed in a country we have no business in.
So the question is this, knowing that government charity is not going away and is perpetrated by both parties, who would you rather help?
The corporate managers and thier profit margin, or the people who work for those people and are denied affordable health care despite having full time employment.

Oh please... I so wish someone would educate people. Do you not understand the right now the US is leading the world in medical improvements because our private corporations spend billions every year to develop better drugs that help improve our lives? In socialize medicine, the first thing to go is research and development. Look at any country with socialized medicine and the medical breakthroughs are near zero. In France, it is so bad the companies pulled up the roots and left the country. Need the latest heart medicine? Too bad, not even available to you with or without money. Well you please go read some of the investors reports, instead of what some dumb communist thinks the drug companies are doing.

Do you not realise that there are people(literally millions) who work full time, pay thier taxes, and are otherwise good citizens. They cant afford to take the day off and spend the ever increasing costs of co-pays and deductibles. Much less braces for thier kids, regular checkups etc.

Having individuals buy thier own medical insurance would do nothing but drive up the price to those individuals. Great idea you have there, lets take an already broken system and make it more expensive for the individuals.

 

[Andy]

Well the first argument I will provide is my state's constitution which states clearly the mandates of funding from state government. Among others, are public education, public safety and transportation.
People already pay for thier child's education and thier own through taxes. I dont think profit driven companies are bad, not at all, it is just some of them are better suited to be run by non-profit motivated entities IMO. No matter if I am paying through taxes or direct tuition, I want every dollar spent to go towards education. Not to the corporate offices and shareholders of yet another government contractor whose motivation is profit and whose accountability is not to the citizens they serve, but instead to the stockholders who "own" said company.

Ugh... sigh... Ok, I'm fine with this. I think your school system, along with all of them, should get ZERO federal dollars. Now, beyond that, if you want to have your money blown on horrible education for your state, go for it.

Just like if you want MassHealth in your state, socialized medicine, and have all your hospitals underfunded, under staffed, and unable to meet the demands of the local population for service, it's your choice, go for it. Tell all your doctors before they leave for lack of good wages that Ohio is willing to pay for service.

No we don't support all children getting education through taxes... just those of truly poor parents... such as those under $15K a year. Even then, I would expect the same requirement on performance that student aid requires, must show up EVERY DAY... must do homework and class work required and pass all tests with a C average or higher. If you can't, then you get your funding revoked and the school kicks you out. You get into trouble cause problems, your out. End of discussion.

First, the overhead cost of running public education is far higher than that of private schools. Do you really think the school administration doesn't have wages similar to that of small businesses? Yes they do. So what difference is it? Only this: if the administration of a public school doesn't do well, they still get paid from taxes. If a private school does horribly, the parents take their kids out, the school loses income, and the administrator loses his job.

Somehow, I still see the profit motivation as a good thing here. Administrators of our current system are politically motivate, not educationally motivated. As long as they make the higher up, who control funding, happy, what quality of education that is given, is purely irrelevant.

Stockholders... Why do so few people understand this concept. This shows the failure of education. No one knows anything about it, but they all have strange theories about 'stockholders'.

Who are the stock holders? Psst: you and me. Everyone that has a 401K, is a stockholder. That's what 401Ks do. They purchase stocks with your retirement money, and use the dividends and growth of the value of the stock to purchase more stocks. So, who are the stock holders? US! We are the stock holders!

What do stock holders want? They want the value of the stocks to maintain or increase in value. How does a stock 'hold' or 'increase' in value? By the company doing well. If the company is an educational company, how does it do well? By providing a great education that causes more parents to pay for their children to go to that company. Oh!!! How horrible!! Those EVIL stock holders! For those blasted stockholders to require the company provide a good education... it's... just... so un-American.

 

[Andy]

Now you are painting a vast group whose far majority are effective professionals in with a very small group of incompetants. Surely they are out there, same goes for any profession.

The difference is, in most cases, incompetent professionals in the real world, can only go so far before they are discovered and eliminated. In the publicly funded (school income isn't based on results) world, the teacher is allowed to keep their job for life because 'he just so good at coaching football!'

Thanks for your vote, and I used the police and fire unions as an example. I am one who thinks that if you put your life and limb on the line for the fellow citizens of your community for 20 years or more you need to be compensated for those sacrafices.
So do we want qualified and professional teachers, police and fire? If the answer is yes, then we need be ready to compensate them for that work. If not, then expect a signifigant downturn in those services.

Amazing... where do you think money comes from? A tree behind the white house? Do you not understand that you can't just hand out as much money you want to everyone on the planet? Hey let's just have a minimum wage of $50K a year, with a fee home and free food, and free car, and free everything... oh wait that would bankrupt our government and wipe out our entire economy. After that, who's going to pay the fire police and teachers? Ah no one.

So maybe we need to have some realistic theories of operation? Should we increase how much the police are paid? Perhaps, but in case you missed it, the government is a mild $7 trillion in debt. So maybe we should get our finances in order before we start passing out more dough we don't have... eh?

It's amazing how keen Americans are at making sure they don't learn from the past... or even the present. We have bankruptcy all over the country, from people spending money they don't have. Credit card debt in the trillions, people living pay check to pay check, barely scraping by, repo'd cars, lost homes, destroyed families... but hey! Let's have government follow the same pattern!! Now there's a plan.

 

[Andy]

Ah the old not on my tax nickel argument, because I am holier than thou, I can pass judgement on what ones spending priorities should be.

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson

You can blow your money on whatever you want. To force me to pay for the stupidity of others is against everything our country was founded on. Especially when it isn't even a constitutionally valid duty. And yes, I most certainly can pass judgment on what my government does with MY money. If I can not, then neither can you, so stop arguing with us about it.

Ill tell you what, I refuse to have my tax dollars line the pockets of CEOs of major corporations,

Great.. I agree. Stop farm subsidies, alternative fuel subsidies, medical research subsidies, renewable energy subsidies... and on and on and on... I'm right with you. Become a constitutionalist.

and I dont want my tax dollars to displace Iraqis and further bloodshed in a country we have no business in.

Defense of the country is a duty of the federal government and required for the safety of the country. Unlike all this other 'stuff', this is a constitutional mandate for the federal government that must be support by all citizens. You don't believe we should be in iraq because of false information. There was false information, namely that Iraq wasn't a problem. We should have gone, we should be there, we will be there until the job is done.

If you want to talk about not having any business there, talk about the Clinton Bosnia deal. He actually boasted that we had no reason to be there.

So the question is this, knowing that government charity is not going away and is perpetrated by both parties, who would you rather help?
The corporate managers and thier profit margin, or the people who work for those people and are denied affordable health care despite having full time employment.

Since giving tax money to private corporations is going to happen any time you give politicians your cash... and since government funded health care will do exactly what you claim you don't want... and since it will at the same time destroy the quality of care in the US... I chose neither. Instead, get government out of health care completely, and cut taxes so people can afford health care.

Do you not realise that there are people(literally millions) who work full time, pay thier taxes, and are otherwise good citizens. They cant afford to take the day off and spend the ever increasing costs of co-pays and deductibles. Much less braces for thier kids, regular checkups etc.

And you think this will change under a government controlled health system? You realize that MassHealth in Massachusetts, is a government paid health care system, completely socialized medicine, and has increasing co-pays as we speak? Yet their health system is crashing. The government is refusing to pay enough to keep the hospitals fully staffed. People have to wait hours, even days for hospital beds, because the hospitals don't have enough money to expand. This is your idea of a good system? Free but crappy?

Do you know that hospitals in Canada send women giving birth to the US because they don't have neo-natal care for them? This is a good idea?

Did you know that Canada is going through a national doctor shortage? The number of the students going into med school has been dropping for years, and a large number leave Canada to practice in the US, why? Because they can't earn anything under the Canada socialized system.

You think it's horrible when people don't go for a regular check because it costs some money? How about when there are no doctors at all to give a check up whether you have the money or not?? Is that a better alternative?

Having individuals buy thier own medical insurance would do nothing but drive up the price to those individuals. Great idea you have there, lets take an already broken system and make it more expensive for the individuals.

Yeah, let's have understaffed underpaid broken down hospitals where people die from bad service. There's a brilliant idea. Lot of good that free hospital is when they have no beds for you, no doctors for you, and staff that couldn't care less about you because they get paid whether you are healed or not. Much better. That's what other systems in this world that are socialized face. You make a choice. Care for those who pay, or no care for anyone.

Worse yet, under your system, the rich will still get care through private doctors that charge more than anyone could pay, but everyone else will be screwed. The government will have to raises the taxes by a ton to cover this boondoggle of a socialized system, so no one will be able to afford good care but the ultra rich.

 

[Bunz]

Andy,
I appreciate the responses. I am about to go out for awhile. So I will take the time probably tomorrow but didnt want to leave you hanging on the issue. I will say before I go, that in several things we are not that far out of agreement, it is a matter of the correct way of going about things and who are the benefacors. But we will talk about it later.