Michele Bachmann officially leaves her church

Natural Law. I see. There is a difference in natural law for plant eaters and meat eaters? Fish have one set of rules and plants have another?

Natural Law, to me at least, is:
gravity,
fire,
erosion,
the consequences of Earth having a molten ferrite core,
the cycle of life,
water, ice, and steam.

These are natural law. Robbing a bank is not covered by natural law, nor is eating one's young, masturbating over Fox News babes, nor sexting with Anthony Wiener.

You'd do well to familiarize yourself with what you're talking about before you ridicule it. "Natural law" does not mean "laws of nature," in the sense of a scientific observation of general tendencies of things. It is a philosophy that attempts to discern moral laws on the basis of human nature, which is necessarily informed by the final causes of the various features of the human person. An extremely simplistic explanation would be to say that it is good for you to use your faculties in the way they were intended to be used, and bad for you to use them in some other way.

You are using circular reasoning: You have decided to believe in the teaching of a Church, good for you.

In what sense am I using circular reasoning?

However, if one doesn't or stopped believing in the teaching of manmade churches, science makes a lot better case for reason than anything related to religious beliefs.

Natural law, incidentally, comes closer than any other moral system to deriving moral truths from scientific ones. It's certainly more scientific than a system based on your feelings and experiences.

So. . .are you saying that the Catholic Church's teachings are not based on the Bible first, then on the New Testament?

As many people are fond of pointing out, the Bible is silent or ambiguous on a number of issues. That's why the Church's social teachings are based in large part on natural law, which, again, is the only objective moral system in existence -- the only one based on something situated outside the individual, not on his preferences, feelings, experiences, or intuitions.
 
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You'd do well to familiarize yourself with what you're talking about before you ridicule it. "Natural law" does not mean "laws of nature," in the sense of a scientific observation of general tendencies of things. It is a philosophy that attempts to discern moral laws on the basis of human nature, which is necessarily informed by the final causes of the various features of the human person. An extremely simplistic explanation would be to say that it is good for you to use your faculties in the way they were intended to be used, and bad for you to use them in some other way.



In what sense am I using circular reasoning?



Natural law, incidentally, comes closer than any other moral system to deriving moral truths from scientific ones. It's certainly more scientific than a system based on your feelings and experiences.



As many people are fond of pointing out, the Bible is silent or ambiguous on a number of issues. That's why the Church's social teachings are based in large part on natural law, which, again, is the only objective moral system in existence -- the only one based on something situated outside the individual, not on his preferences, feelings, experiences, or intuitions.


So, once again, the CHURCH decides what meets their criteria for "natural law." They decide what is "natural" and "healthy" for humans, and make their determination into a "law!"

Sorry, If you are looking at the standing of most Churches toward homosexual relationship to determine that homosexuality goes against "natural law," THAT is circular reasoning!
 
So, once again, the CHURCH decides what meets their criteria for "natural law." They decide what is "natural" and "healthy" for humans, and make their determination into a "law!"

Sorry, If you are looking at the standing of most Churches toward homosexual relationship to determine that homosexuality goes against "natural law," THAT is circular reasoning!

Natural law philosophy predates Christ by several centuries. So does the natural law prohibition on homosexuality; Aristotle compared it to eating dirt.

And its not as if its a difficult philosophy to grasp or one that's open to competing interpretations. It simply asserts that every human faculty serves some end, and that goodness consists in acting toward that end while sin consists in acting contrary to it.

The human sexual faculty serves the purpose of procreation.

Homosexual sex is necessarily nonprocreative.

Therefore, it is contrary to natural law ("disordered" is the term the Church would use) to have homosexual sex.

I think you're the one using circular reasoning. You've decided, a priori, that the Church began with a condemnation of homosexuals and then adopted natural law philosophy to rationalize it (even though natural law is concerned with a lot of things, not merely sexual morality). You believe this because you dislike the Church; and you dislike the Church because you think it's outdated; and you think it's outdated because it doesn't share your irrational admiration of homosexuals.

In fact, the Church's teachings in all things (sexual morality included) follow logically from natural law philosophy; there is literally not one of its teachings that diverges from it. That's why none of its teachings are separable, and to deny one on some basis is literally to deny them all. And that's why communion is denied to those who do not accept the sum of the Church's teachings -- that's what communion is, after all; communion with the Church, and with Christ, who established it.

It astounds me that you have the gall to accuse literally millennia's worth of philosophers from whom this tradition derives of simple-mindedness. No offense, but your own argument for homosexuality isn't exactly sophisticated; it's mostly irrational, anecdotal emoting about your personal experiences with homosexuals. I suppose it's the Church's fault you were poorly catechized (there's a lot of that going around these days), but I'd hope you could at least have a little humility when speaking of some of the giants of the Western philosophical tradition, like Aristotle or Aquinas.
 
So, then, "Natural Law" is really not natural. It is a structured codification based upon the idea that there must be a reason for everything. You say that sex is for procreation. Really? It is the driver that causes reproduction, and without the drive probably a species would die. But that in itself does not make non-procreative sex unnatural. The sex drive exists, true.

This is just circular reasoning.
 
Mr. Shaman said:
....Who'd successfully implemented managed health-care.
And which is widely unpopular withing MA....
Lemme guess.....that's what They say.....right? :rolleyes:

"A study conducted by the Urban Institute and released in December 2010 by the Massachusetts Division of Health Care Finance and Policy stated that as of June 2010, 98.1 percent of state residents had coverage. This compared to 97.3 percent having coverage in the state in 2009 and 83.3 percent having coverage nationwide. Among children and seniors the 2010 coverage rate was even higher, at 99.8 percent and 99.6 percent respectively."


Your reading-comprehension leaves a LOT to be desired.

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And which is widely unpopular withing MA, as well as causing costs to increase etc etc.

Romney has already said he will issue an Executive Order allowing states to opt out of Obamacare if they so choose.

I agree, Palin is not going to run...

But I will also say, I think we need to dramatically increase the salary of the President, and frankly Congress as well. The people who are truly capable of leading the country simply stay out of politics because it is simply not worth their while.
Hmmmmmmm.....

We got Bill Clinton for $200K, a year....

....and, we got Lil' Dumbya for $400K, a year....

....and, you're suggesting we throw MORE money at The Problem?
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Due to the (obviously) inversely-proportional nature of Salary vs. The Presidency....you KNOW what a higher-salary is bound to get us!!

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:eek:

No thanks....​
 
So, then, "Natural Law" is really not natural. It is a structured codification based upon the idea that there must be a reason for everything. You say that sex is for procreation. Really? It is the driver that causes reproduction, and without the drive probably a species would die. But that in itself does not make non-procreative sex unnatural. The sex drive exists, true.

This is just circular reasoning.

It is "natural" in the sense that it arises from human nature.

And yes, sex is for procreation. What other purpose would it serve? Would you deny you have eyes so that you can see, or do you believe the capacity of your eyes to see is simply an arbitrary circumstance which evolutionary theorists conjure up in a feeble effort to impose order in an irrational world?
 
You know, I agree. Right now, the best people often cannot afford to run for Congress. . .not only because the election process is costly, but also because they can make a lot more money in private industry, and they do have a life and a family (hopefully!).
So.....what's this Patriotism-thing everyone keeps talkin'-about??

Is Patriotism expected (ONLY) from those folks who are willing to work for (a little-more-than) minimum-wage?

:confused:

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"My sons are all adults and they've made decisions about their careers and they've chosen not to serve in the military and active duty and I respect their decision in that regard.

One of the ways my sons are showing support for our nation is helping me get elected because they think I'd be a great president." - Mitt Romney
 
It is "natural" in the sense that it arises from human nature.

And yes, sex is for procreation. What other purpose would it serve?
When you've had enough o' the Convent-experience....dress comfortably, gather-up some beer-buck$....and, give me a call.

(The Humbolt-agriculture is on me.)

:rolleyes:
 
Most people are sinners -- Catholics included. This isn't news.

Those who take communion while rejecting Christ's teachings and those of the Church He established simply compound the sin of rebellion with the sin of sacrilege and perjury. It's something they'll have to answer for when they come before God.

Meanwhile, natural law remains natural law whether people live by it or not.
Well....you're in America, now.

I can't remember natural law being mentioned, all that often, but...."Pursuit O' Happiness" is HUGE, here!

When you (finally) locate some individual who's been to the Other Side....and, will swear to all the benefits o' life-long sacrifice, martyrdom & self-flagellation......you get back to us.

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Lemme guess.....that's what They say.....right? :rolleyes:

No..it is what polls say. I have seen a total of three. One focused solely on Republicans, and it had 29% support. Another poll, by Suffolk University found that 49% of state residents do not think that RomneyCare has been beneficial. That represents a 20% drop since the law passed in 2006. A mere 38% felt the law was helping, and another by the Boston Herald (I think) that says the majority do in fact like Romneycare.


Your reading-comprehension leaves a LOT to be desired.

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If you believe coverage somehow equates to popularity then I suppose you are right.

It is like saying, "since people pay taxes, taxes are popular." That kind of "logic" is certainly interesting.
 
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