Is homosexuality a choice or is it genetic?

[bewitched]

so interested that I just discovered "polymorphous perverse" as in cokehead Freud.
and this seems like where alot of confusion comes about that humans can control their oral, anal, and other desires. which we can't to some extent.

fascinating.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

interesting discussion Mare!

so does the responsibility go to the women to be more defensive then?
funny how not many men aren't sponsoring defensive courses for women... to keep the crop vulnerable...?

If we teach violence to women I think we'll be working on the wrong end of the problem. There are groups in the world that have not/do not victimize women as our current crop of patriarchal cultures does. We need to rethink how our culture looks at, values, and treats not just women, but all the vulnerable people: children, poor, disabled, homeless, and ill people are all at risk in our Might is Right culture. There is no real way to make women able to repel the determined assault of men, men are larger, stronger, and far more sexually driven. Rather, I think we need to raise boys differently, engender in them a sense of respect for others that isn't based on physcial violence. This will require a restructuring of our competitive cultural outlook. I read about the indigenous people's on the Trobiand Islands off the eastern coast of Africa who adopted British football as their national sport. They love it, every town has a team and they all play each other. The difference is that they always play to a tie so that there are no losers. This, of course, is antithetical to our philosophy of good, right, strong, masculine people are winners to be emulated and weak, sissy, lazy, bad people are losers to be ridiculed.

Personally, I don't have any wish to hurt anyone, I'd rather play to a tie every time.

in a balanced eco-system the predators are necessary but I wonder how the math goes with the current population on the planet.

I hope that you are being facetious in this statement. Men and women do not and should not have a predator/prey relationship, we're the same specie and need to work together--neither group will survive for long without the other. Women are not "things" to be used, we are not baby machines or sex machines put here on Earth to service men.

It would be good if the male population could come to some understanding of how women view them. Since my transition the most common comment (much to my surprise) that I have heard from women is that if there was any substitute for men, then they would never have anything to do with them again. Most men won't take that comment seriously--even though they should--and so the pattern will continue to be repeated as sons are raised and inculcated with the same misogynistic tendencies and dismissive attitudes towards women as their Fathers.

 

[bewitched]

It would be good if the male population could come to some understanding of how women view them. Since my transition the most common comment (much to my surprise) that I have heard from women is that if there was any substitute for men, then they would never have anything to do with them again. Most men won't take that comment seriously--even though they should--and so the pattern will continue to be repeated as sons are raised and inculcated with the same misogynistic tendencies and dismissive attitudes towards women as their Fathers.

yes, if women ruled the world everything would be freshly painted... and we would create sperm in a lab. no need for men. well except for Vin Diesel.
and I agree, all behavior is learned. WWII generation men especially have misogynistic tendencies.

I kept the predator discussion going last night and it's still interesting to me... it's so easy for humans to survive now, looking at that from an evolutionary ecosystem standpoint maybe it's natural for more predators to form. and now a new trend, gang predators, choosing not just women but racial prey. sorry to drift off topic.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

yes, if women ruled the world everything would be freshly painted... and we would create sperm in a lab. no need for men. well except for Vin Diesel.
and I agree, all behavior is learned. WWII generation men especially have misogynistic tendencies.

I kept the predator discussion going last night and it's still interesting to me... it's so easy for humans to survive now, looking at that from an evolutionary ecosystem standpoint maybe it's natural for more predators to form. and now a new trend, gang predators, choosing not just women but racial prey. sorry to drift off topic.

The issue of predators may arise from population crowding, it's been shown that rats become more aggressive if they are in crowded situations. I suspect that there are too many people on Earth for our own good. The economic Might is Right culture is no help either since it produces a lot of losers and just a few winners. In order for the mega-rich people to have all that money a lot of people have to live with virtually no money. The increasing gap between the rich and poor contributes to the pressure that people feel, but especially men because in our culture they are inculcated with the notion that they should be the providers--take that away from them and they have no utilitarian value except producing offspring, hence we see that aspect of their nature becoming more prominent, and often violently so.

 

[bewitched]

The issue of predators may arise from population crowding, it's been shown that rats become more aggressive if they are in crowded situations. I suspect that there are too many people on Earth for our own good. The economic Might is Right culture is no help either since it produces a lot of losers and just a few winners. In order for the mega-rich people to have all that money a lot of people have to live with virtually no money. The increasing gap between the rich and poor contributes to the pressure that people feel, but especially men because in our culture they are inculcated with the notion that they should be the providers--take that away from them and they have no utilitarian value except producing offspring, hence we see that aspect of their nature becoming more prominent, and often violently so.

ya. grim.
I would have loved to have lived in the hunter gather period instead.
population crowding also leads to mental illness... eek. I'm hoping for a pandemic or something.

you teach gender... education?
thanks for the interesting discussion!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

ya. grim.
I would have loved to have lived in the hunter gather period instead.
population crowding also leads to mental illness... eek. I'm hoping for a pandemic or something.

you teach gender... education?
thanks for the interesting discussion!

I am a transsexual, my spouse and I are both educated and we often speak on panels for Human Sexuality and Gender Ed classes. We also present for continuing ed classes for counselors.

However attractive the hunter/gatherer lifestyle may be, it will take a vast amount of dying before we are reduced enough in numbers to live like that. The transition too will be very difficult for anyone trying to go from living in today's world who tries to go back to living off the land. We don't have the necessary information base and skill set for that kind of life.

 

[Coyote]

I am a transsexual, my spouse and I are both educated and we often speak on panels for Human Sexuality and Gender Ed classes. We also present for continuing ed classes for counselors.

However attractive the hunter/gatherer lifestyle may be, it will take a vast amount of dying before we are reduced enough in numbers to live like that. The transition too will be very difficult for anyone trying to go from living in today's world who tries to go back to living off the land. We don't have the necessary information base and skill set for that kind of life.

It's interesting you mention this. BBC did a series where people volunteered to live in an iron age settlement (predesser to other series like 1900's house, etc.) where a group of people attempted to live like that. Some of the main difficulties though was that they really didn't know, much less have the skill sets needed for daily life there.

 

[Segep]

Yup. And we already killed off or assimilated all the natives, so we won't get any help from that quarter like we did the last time a bunch of unprepared idiots tried to live off the land.

 

[bewitched]

I am a transsexual, my spouse and I are both educated and we often speak on panels for Human Sexuality and Gender Ed classes. We also present for continuing ed classes for counselors.

.

I can't imagine what it must have been like for people in the past to deal with transexuality (is that a word). at least now we can talk about it... in the US.
in Iran there are no homosexuals... I guess transsexuals are killed too.

good for you educating people! you're good at it too!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I can't imagine what it must have been like for people in the past to deal with transexuality (is that a word). at least now we can talk about it... in the US.
in Iran there are no homosexuals... I guess transsexuals are killed too.
good for you educating people! you're good at it too!

For the most part transsexual people have been accepted as statesmen/women, as shamans/healers, and counselors because of their ability to see both sides of the gender divide. Most of the indigenous cultures had no problem with them. It has been the extraordiarilly patriarchal desert religions which have rained Hell down on us. When the Europeans came to the US they were horrified to find that the Native Americans respected, honored, and even revered the berdaches, the two-spirit people. Joan of Arc was a female to male transsexual who was condemned by the Church and burned at the stake for refusing to wear women's clothing. In Elizabethan England there were 4 accepted sexes: men, women, mollies, and tommies (whence comes our term tomboy). Before the rise of the desert religions it was common for transsexuals to live normal, productive lives without the hatred and violence that they receive nowadays.

The stupid, the truly stupid thing is that there is not a single word about transsexuals in the Bible, not a word, but we are still persecuted by Bible-beaters that don't know diddlysquat about their own religious book. Shoot the Catholic Church has gone both ways on this, at one time they cannonized female to male transsexuals, those saints included Marinus, Athanasia, Eugenia, Anastasia, Papula, among others. Acceptance of transgendered people harks back to the time of the Goddess religions and this terrifies the proponents of the patriarchal ones. It's fear and hatred masquerading as religion. Nothing new, but still disgusting.

In some places we are still accepted, in Thailand we are "cathoi" or the third sex. In some of the Pacific Islands it's an honor to have a transgendered person in the family. I know of one family like that, their transperson is here going to college and the whole extended family has come to support "her" and share in some of the experiences "she" is having.

 

[Cookie Parker]

I say it is a choice but what sayest thou?

I say genetic

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=3732662

 

[The Scotsman]

If poofterism is genetic then how about this for a theory!!

Well...you know that its only in the last 30 years or so that all the brokeback mountaineer fellas have come tumbling outta the closet as they say. Well prior to that they basically led double, lives during the day off to the office kiss the missus goodbye and all that jazz.....they were married and tried to lead normal lives BUT during full moons or whenever the fancy took em, well they'd...you know...you get the drift! off they'd toddle and climb up that brokeback mountain and then they'd toddle off back to the wife and kiddies saying what a great time at the convention.

So during their "normal" working hours they'd have kids and perpetuate the gene pool so to speak. Now though that's all changed! its normal for them to emerge from the closet without having to worry about appearing normal and thus no phoney marriages and no kids......no kids no gene pool. Thus my theory is that in a few gwenerations there ain't gonna be any more brokeback mountaineers coz they're breeding themselves out of existance.....by not breeding......see ya




Light blue touchpaper and stand well back.........





Have a dram.....not to be taken too seriously folks.....

 

[Federal Farmer]

There is some evidence that "true" homosexuality is a result of an "abnormality" in the hypothalamus, which is why it's 'easy' to spot some of them. You just know when you look at them that some guys are a touch too effeminate, and some gals are a touch too butch.

The hypothalamus of a "true" homosexual male is generally the size of the hypothalamus in a heterosexual female, and the size in a homosexual female is roughly the size of a heterosexual male. Since the hypothalamus regulates the release of hormones through the pituitary glands, and those hormones are highly directive in the development of a child while still in the womb, and particularly those directed to, among other things, reproduction, any "abnormality" in the development of the hypothalamus will have an effect on the child, but whether this "abnormality" is genetic or not remains controversial, mainly because it's not "PC" to call homosexuals, or anything having to do with their lifestyle, "abnormal".

The other problem having to do with relating homosexuality to a genetic "defect" is that parents may one day be able to find out about this "abnormality" soon after the mother becomes pregnant, and they may then decide to abort the "defective" child, ergo, the homosexual community will consider this to constitute "genocide" on homosexuals, causing even more of them to hold parades and generally make nuisances of themselves in public (as if they don't do enough of that as it is) and may even call for Roe v Wade to be overturned on "humanitarian" grounds. This alone could lead to riots in the streets resulting in thousands of gay men getting the crap beat out of them by NOW/ERA type females, and that just really wouldn't be seemly. I mean really, can't you just see it now, possibly tens of thousands of people, out in the streets, yelling, screeching incoherently, slapping, scratching, pulling hair, and hitting each other with their purses! It would be the worlds biggest CAT FIGHT!!!!

 

[Montesquieu]

since genes dictate some of behavior

but what you chose to act on is a bigger problem

but the opinion that it is a behavioral problem is an illusion

yes its a behavior

but why is it a problem?

 

[SW85]

yes its a behavior

but why is it a problem?

Why are any behaviors problematic?

IMO, it is a naturally-occurring abnormality. Gays do not deserve persecution or anything but they are no more entitled to social validation for that abnormality than are people who are color-blind or schizophrenic.