Capitalism worked

[GenSeneca]

I've decided to treat you like a grownup for a while so have a look at my response to the same issue on the other thread. It has to do with Obama's plan to reduce gas prices or his lack of a plan, whatever.

I already know I'm correct, Obama has no interest in lowering gas prices... neither do the Democrats in Washington. Oil is evil, its killing our planet and these fine politicians are trying to save the American people from themselves by cutting off the supply and making the cost unaffordable.

 

[UShadItComing]

Under President Bush, Wind Power alone saw a 300% expansion.

Environmentalists used lawsuits and obstacles in Congress to shut down or thwart the other planned sites, it would have been a 500% increase... Ted Kennedy even shut down one that would have been 22 miles off the coast of where he has a summer home, and he didn't want to risk it spoiling his view.

And what is a 300% increase in wind power? Look, you are approaching this as if I am an American and I'm arguing for or against one particular party. I'm not, and you can blame the problem you have now on whoever you like. If you have an interest in pursuing the issues I brought up then do that and if you want to tutn this into a left/right American political issue then you will lose me.

Do you care about high gas prices? Do you see the positive side? After you get your new pres do you care about what happens to your country? For me the ongoing success of Canada is more important than petty politics even though I have a preference on what party governs in Canada. That is because I think I know which party will do the right things.

The right things for Canada are most likely similar in many ways to what they are in the US but one big difference is that we have oil and you do not. We are quite concerned about the environmental destruction as the tarsands projects are increased because we aren't doing it for ourselves. We're doing it for the profit and to supply the US market.

I think it is necessary for the American people to come to the realization that the oil problems are entirely related to supply and demand but the upcoming election is going to skew that understanding for now. Soon after the realization will hit full force and then the US will start to do something in earnest about it. The only question for me now is will it be too costly a problem to fix because it is coming too late?

I'm sure you Americans have faith in your ability but you may want to look at the reason why you are now at such a disadvantage.

 

[GenSeneca]

I was responding to your claim that we have been sitting on our hands and doing nothing to explore and expand our use of alternatives.... which is pattently false. There was no left/right debate there, just pointing out that progess is being made and we have never stopped trying to do better. We have been trying for the last 3 decades and the Environmentalists are the biggest obstacle to creating new sources of power.

You also seem convinced that America has peaked its available production of Oil, despite evidence to the contrary, and the only place we can go is down.... yet we have as much oil in America as there in Saudi Arabia, we just need to go get it.

Solving energy problems will take time but following Obama's plan to Avoid using technology and resources that are already available and ready to go is disasterous. Maybe you disagree with that because you, like so many others, think that using certain sources for energy will destroy the planet.

 

[UShadItComing]

I was responding to your claim that we have been sitting on our hands and doing nothing to explore and expand our use of alternatives.... which is pattently false. There was no left/right debate there, just pointing out that progess is being made and we have never stopped trying to do better. We have been trying for the last 3 decades and the Environmentalists are the biggest obstacle to creating new sources of power.

You also seem convinced that America has peaked its available production of Oil, despite evidence to the contrary, and the only place we can go is down.... yet we have as much oil in America as there in Saudi Arabia, we just need to go get it.

Solving energy problems will take time but following Obama's plan to Avoid using technology and resources that are already available and ready to go is disasterous. Maybe you disagree with that because you, like so many others, think that using certain sources for energy will destroy the planet.

Yeah o.k.

And I was going to leave it at that with you but then I noticed that you had actually contradicted yourself and it may be useful to at least point that out.

You wrote:

We have been trying for the last 3 decades and the Environmentalists are the biggest obstacle to creating new sources of power.

You tell me about 300% increase in wind power but then you are inferring here that the environmentalists have prevented your country from keeping up to other countries on alternatives. Especially the Scandinavian countries. Big mistake on your part because I have already told you that the politics issue is of no interest to me. So o.k., the reason why your country is lagging behind is because of the environmentalists.

 

[BigRob]

I think it's got something to do with exploring all forms of alternative energy and not relying so heavily on oil. But that's not the point is it. The point being that it's stupid to scoff at inflating tires to close to the max.

So you do not know his plan. At least look it up.

For christ sake, I'm not going to go back to the beginning and hold your hand through this again.

Because you put your foot in your mouth again.

You state:

Now we know that the reason why the oil companies weren't drilling and exploring in the continental US was because you're tapped out. Try to bullsh-t somebody else Andy

I'm not going to go back to the beginning and try to get you to understand the difference between affordable oil and oil that's not affordable. As for Canada finding a new market to export to: Have you morphed into a Abomination or a Sihoette? You're wasting my time now and I ain't gonna play that game.

Or are you really just stupid? Your choice pal.

Oil that was not affordable was the oil that we had not been pumping when gas was sitting at $2.00 a gallon. Now, with higher gas prices it makes sense to pump it, so why are we not?

 

[UShadItComing]

So you do not know his plan. At least look it up.



Because you put your foot in your mouth again.

You state:




Oil that was not affordable was the oil that we had not been pumping when gas was sitting at $2.00 a gallon. Now, with higher gas prices it makes sense to pump it, so why are we not?

Glad you're back and feeling better Rob. You should have a talk to the Gen because he thinks the reason why your country hasn't been drilling for oil is because the enviro libs prevented it. You guys get that worked out among yourselves first o.k?

Hey, is Andy feeling better yet?

 

[GenSeneca]

You should have a talk to the Gen because he thinks the reason why your country hasn't been drilling for oil is because the enviro libs prevented it.

Poor Shadi, he's so confused... He has no idea who said what when.

 

[Andy]

Oh my dawwwg Andy, you are really grasping at straws now. Did you think that was Obama's only plan? Yes, inflating tires will save on gas consumption and I think it's estimated to be significant. What is wrong with you lad? You don't cut your nose off to spite your face. If you do that then you will always make $24,000 a year!

Yes, given I have yet to hear any other significant 'plan' from Obama.

"I think it's estimated to be significant" You THINK it's ESTIMATED to be significant? Opinion based on zero facts.

My personal income has nothing to do with that topic at hand. Who is grasping at straws?

No Andy, it's not his plan.

Oh do tell. What's his plan?

I claimed is a scam? Come back Andy, come back.

Topic was oil located in ANWR and OCS. Your response:
"I would stay away from it because it's an electioneering scam and nothing more."

Yes, you claimed it was a scam.

See my question to Rob and the Gen as to my confusion on what you're on about now.

The prior statement about ANWR and OCS being a scam. If it is, and private companies invest in it, then only they lose the money.

In Socialism, if the company invests in a scam (like Ethanol), we, the tax payers lose.

That is my point with keeping just 500 beds and relying on others to pick up a surge. Maybe you're a smarter young man than I gave you credit for.

The difference being that your hospitals can't help people. Which defeat the point of having them. In order to compare correctly, it would be if budget cuts forced the French Rail Service, to cut 90% of their staff, and as a result rail cars were flying off the tracks and killing people.

In theory it is possible. In practice and experinence it is hogwash!

True or false: ANWR was recommended for drilling in the late 80s, and was prevented from being drilled on till early 2000s, nearly 20 years later?

True or false: Production has not risen with demand during those 20 years?

Probably more but the mere fact that you would make that claim tells me that you are out to lunch. With rabid righties probably! The earh probably still has 100 times the amount of oil that has ever been taken out of the ground still there. YOu're not ready for a serious discussion on that at this time.

Thank you for shooting down the peakoil theory. Feel free to support any other points I make.

THe preponderance of evidence says you are wrong and your head's about a yard up your rectum.
How many million barrels a day is he producing? LOL
Dear silly Andy, do you often rely on these kind of Anecdotal stories?

It doesn't matter if he only produces 1. The point is that if we were "tapped out", the the production of more oil than prior, would be impossible. We we produce 100 barrels a day, and you claim we are tapped out, then how could a random guy, at a random location, sink a well and strike oil, producing 1 barrel more a day?

The answer is obvious: We are not tapped out. And Anthony Young obviously is producing more than 1 barrel a day with 57 well 6 months ago. Who know how many he has now.

You should have started looking before oil got expensive but you didn't. And it's because of the mean liberals who wanted to bring on this crisis because McCain always has said that he was in favour of alternative energy. Didn't he?

McCain said he favored good alternative energy. I do too. Nevertheless, between McCain supporting drilling for oil, or Obama's "inflate your tires" theory, I'm going for McCain on this one.

Who the fu-k cares, you're toast because you weren't interested in alternative energy because you cons always insisted there was lots of oil left. So stop crying to Canada for 5 million barrels a day. Alright already?

You don't want us buying oil from you, that supports your failing health care system? Now that's interesting.

Note: degrading to mindless cursing is the sign of a failing argument. We have invested more in alternative energy sources than Canada has. The result has been few in success, and much in wasted money, and spiking oil prices.

 

[Andy]

Glad you're back and feeling better Rob. You should have a talk to the Gen because he thinks the reason why your country hasn't been drilling for oil is because the enviro libs prevented it. You guys get that worked out among yourselves first o.k?

Hey, is Andy feeling better yet?

Once again, the two comments are not mutually exclusive.

When ever a large oil company locates a patch of oil, it's almost a given, they will be sued by environmental groups. The government has required that for large corporations to drill at any given location, that an Environmental Impact Assessment must be done. After that is completed, the EPA determines if it needs to issue an Environmental Impact Statement, which it nearly always does. Then after the EIS is released, environmental groups files suit using the EIS as evidence to validate prevention of drilling.

The entire process takes ages (this is why it's 5 years before a spot starts producing oil), and why it requires tons of money to drill for oil. In many cases the EIS is found to have little or no validity, but of course you can't sue the government for false statements. (more than half the senate would be gone)

Further, the environmentalists have prevented drilling in known oil locations like ANWR and OSC, for 20 years or more, by federal law.

Now what Rob was getting at was, on a more localized level, small oil companies have been exploring areas where there is heavy or difficult extraction oil, such as Shale Oil. In these areas, the cost of extracting the oil, or the value the oil could be sold for, has been in the past, higher than the going price for crude.

In these specific situations, the cost / value relation makes production not profitable when the market price is lower than the break even on the difficult extraction areas.

Note: neither of these response are exclusive. Is it possible for both to be true? Yes, yes it is.

 

[Andy]

I think it's got something to do with exploring all forms of alternative energy and not relying so heavily on oil. But that's not the point is it. The point being that it's stupid to scoff at inflating tires to close to the max.

You THINK it has SOMETHING to do with... You are not inspiring confidence in me. Basically you said his plan, is the same plan we've been under, that has led us to the current situation.

Again... a plan based on reciting the owner manual of a car, is not a brilliant national policy.

For christ sake, I'm not going to go back to the beginning and hold your hand through this again.

Then don't. Start by admitting that we are not "tapped out" given, we are tapping, and oil is coming out.

So now it's not the bad libs who kept you from drilling?

As detailed in post #54 (above), the two claims are not mutually exclusive.

 

[UShadItComing]

Today they had a guy on t.v. who had his tires checked and it showed he had a tire underinflated by 4 pounds. Then the tolk him if he inflated that tire to the proper pressure he could save 8% on gas.

I think McCain's tire pressure guage joke is starting to backfire on him McCain's people are now having to defend it and they can't.

Bother! Talking to Americans.

 

[UShadItComing]

Andy, you have convinced me, I'm going to vote for McCain.

(hey wait a minute, I can't vote)

 

[Andy]

You tell me about 300% increase in wind power but then you are inferring here that the environmentalists have prevented your country from keeping up to other countries on alternatives. Especially the Scandinavian countries. Big mistake on your part because I have already told you that the politics issue is of no interest to me. So o.k., the reason why your country is lagging behind is because of the environmentalists.

Environmentalists have inhibited the expansion of Hydropower, claiming dams wreck the eco-system, wind power, claiming it kills birds, Solar power, unless it's expensive or in the desert, geothermal power, claiming it ruins natural geo thermal vents.

Eco-nutz sue Geothermal

Eco-nutz sue wind power

Eco-nuts stop hydroplant

However, even with Eco-nuts preventing everything remotely reasonable, we still have expanded our alternative energy scams vastly.

So he wasn't contradicting himself at all. Both the claim we have expanded alternative energy, and the claim it's been hindered by eco-nutz, are both completely true.

I've noticed you tend to not be able to understand non-mutually exclusive points very well. You do know that logically, it is possible for there to be multiple responses to a single statement, yes?

 

[Andy]

Today they had a guy on t.v. who had his tires checked and it showed he had a tire underinflated by 4 pounds. Then the tolk him if he inflated that tire to the proper pressure he could save 8% on gas.

I think McCain's tire pressure guage joke is starting to backfire on him McCain's people are now having to defend it and they can't.

Save 8% on gas by inflating a tire by a mere 4 pounds of pressure... No. That's not even mathematically plausible. You were lied to.

First, the larger the tire, the less effect pressure changes has on it's contact with the pavement. Most cars have 16" or larger wheels. Unless he was driving a Festiva or Swift, or Geo Metro, the wheel size alone, makes that chances of 4 psi having an 8% effect on gas, nearly impossible. Further, it would have to be all four tires, and that's not likely.

Also, the size of the auto, and specifically the engine, will have an impact on how much or little, tire pressure will effect milage. A V6 or V8 will not even notice the minor drag caused by slightly under inflated tires.

Even in the best possible car, with the smallest of engines, at 35 MPG, inflating by 4 psi, would grant me 38 mpg? Or having it under inflated would give me 32 mpg? I want to see that. Some real documentation would be required. That is just too large an effect for one single tire, missing only 4 psi.

I had a car in college that got a leaking rim, and was constantly under inflated. My milage did drop, but not by that much. I'm more inclined to believe the people who claimed 3.3%. That would be far more realistic.

 

[UShadItComing]

Save 8% on gas by inflating a tire by a mere 4 pounds of pressure... No. That's not even mathematically plausible. You were lied to.

First, the larger the tire, the less effect pressure changes has on it's contact with the pavement. Most cars have 16" or larger wheels. Unless he was driving a Festiva or Swift, or Geo Metro, the wheel size alone, makes that chances of 4 psi having an 8% effect on gas, nearly impossible. Further, it would have to be all four tires, and that's not likely.

Also, the size of the auto, and specifically the engine, will have an impact on how much or little, tire pressure will effect milage. A V6 or V8 will not even notice the minor drag caused by slightly under inflated tires.

Even in the best possible car, with the smallest of engines, at 35 MPG, inflating by 4 psi, would grant me 38 mpg? Or having it under inflated would give me 32 mpg? I want to see that. Some real documentation would be required. That is just too large an effect for one single tire, missing only 4 psi.

I had a car in college that got a leaking rim, and was constantly under inflated. My milage did drop, but not by that much. I'm more inclined to believe the people who claimed 3.3%. That would be far more realistic.

Yeah Andy, they must have been lying to me and you must be right. Inflating tires to their proper pressure is not going to help one bit.