Abortion

What term would have the following as its definition:

The state forcing through law, one individual to provide for another individual.

If it involves real property, welfare. But we aren't talking about real property. If you are suggesting that the constituion supports allowing one individual to deliberatelykill another individual over something as trivial as a few calories, then you are describing a tyrany far more henious than one that enforces welfare.

Further, the state can't simply give the powers of a monarch to one individual over another. The constitution simply does not support such a thing.
 
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Further, your particular argument suggests that the right to property outweighs the right to live.

No, that is not my "argument" and attempts to frame it as such constitute a misrepresentation of my comments.

YOUR argument seems to be that someone else's right to life outwieghs ALL my rights (save my right to life). Is this the case or not? Judging by your analogy of being stranded on a ship, I'd say this is precisely the argument you are making. If this becomes legal precedent, it doesn't take a stretch to imagine that such a ruling will extend to a constitutional right to welfare - they have a "right" to infringe on your rights because their right to life trumps your rights.

If that means that there is some wiggle room within the constition for welfare, then so be it.
Am I remembering correctly that you said "let the chips fall where they may" in relation to recognizing the rights of the unborn? I think you would be remiss to discount or ignore the forseeable "unintended consequences" that such a ruling would bring about. I can see a situation where the only "right" that would exist under such circumstances would be the right to life. Your right to property, liberty and everything else would be superceeded by someone elses right to life.

Before you write that off as hyperbole or an appeal to fear, I'll provide an example of the government getting their foot in the door then taking things to extremes: The progressive income tax was brought into existence with the promise that it would never go above 5%, within 15 years it was 90%.

I don't trust government or the politicians who run our government. Politicians have a long sordid history of selling our rights out from under us to get, or maintain, their positions of power. That "wiggle room" will become a gaping hole and eventually a massive cavern... That is if we learn anything from history.
 
All you need do to make your case is to show me in the constitution where one individual gets the power of a monarch over another. Absolute life and death power over another individual with no judicial review whatsoever. I have looked, and can't even find such a thing in theory, much less fact.
 
All you need do to make your case is to show me in the constitution where one individual gets the power of a monarch over another. Absolute life and death power over another individual with no judicial review whatsoever. I have looked, and can't even find such a thing in theory, much less fact.
I never claimed any such clause or article existed in the document, you did by way of a strawman.

Where does the Constitution say that the right to life supersedes all the other rights?

You see, and perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought all our rights were all equally important. As you pointed out, my right to liberty and property would not mean much if I didn't have a right to life... That's true enough but what good is my right to life if I have no right to liberty or property?
 
I never claimed any such clause or article existed in the document, you did by way of a strawman.

What else could absolute power of life or death be? What else could having the power to make the unilataral decision be construed as? Any argument in favor of abortion on demand is exactly that. It is, in effect, ownership.

Where does the Constitution say that the right to life supersedes all the other rights?

A couple of places. The first place it is stated is the 5th amendment.

" nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. "

It says it again in the 14th amendment.

"nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

You have to understand that legal writing takes a certain form even back in the old days when they wrote with quill pens. If you understand the legal form of writing and the rules that applied then and still apply today, it says it as clear as day. In legal writings, when items are put in a list, in this case, life, liberty, and property, the order of their appearance establishes thier order of precedence. Had each been held equally, the way that they were named woud have had to be different. My own experience in writing a will and a few other legal documents suggests that each would have had to have been named in a separate sentence in order to be given equal precedence or specifically stated to have equal weight.

Consider, for just a second, some of the ramifications of all three basic human rights having precisely the same weight. Theft, no matter how petty could be construed as a capital crime. Other problems come to mind but I am not going to dwell on them here.

The fact that the founders listed them in sequence within one sentence, and the writers of the 14th amendment did the same doesn't just suggest that life takes precedence over liberty and property and that liberty takes precedence over property, it makes it an actual legal fact and the logic behind them writing it that way is flawless. As I have asked before; of what value would a right to property be if your right to liberty were not first secured; and of what value would your rights to property and liberty be if your right to live were not first secured.

Consider just for a moment the legal fact that an unborn can inherit property. It can't necessarily be listed as a beneficiary to an insurance policy, but it can inherit. If its beneficiary dies, it inherits property. Of what value exactly is that property if its right to live is not secured?

You see, and perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought all our rights were all equally important. As you pointed out, my right to liberty and property would not mean much if I didn't have a right to life... That's true enough but what good is my right to life if I have no right to liberty or property?

Most people believe that all rights are equal and I was among them. For the greater part of my life, I believed that all of our basic human rights held equal weight. When I was confronted with the anti abortion argument (at the time I could be called pro choice) I spent a great deal of time and energy trying to prove that abortion was constitutional. During my research, I had occasion to discuss certain points with a constititonal lawyer. The more I learned, the more evident it became that abortion on demand simply can not be legally justified. There are numerous arguments in support of it that sound rational on the surface, but when put to the legal fire, they break down.

Take your own argument for example. Do you really believe that in a court of law, the child's consumption of calories could be shown to be just cause for the forfieture of its life? Your argument must give absolute power of life or death, in effect, ownership of the unborn to its mother in order to work and such power of one individual over another is the reason we went to war with england in the first place. We fought a war so that each and every one of us would be on equal footing before the law.

Of what value is your right to live if you don't have an absolute right to property? You never had an absolute right to property in the first place. You have an absolute right to pursue property but no absolute right to it, even if you aquire it. You have a right to pursue it, and once you attain it, you have a right to extract benefits from it, but no absolute right to keep it to the point that you may kill another over it. Theft is not a capital crime. Even the constitution lays out reasons you may have to forfiet property for the greater good. I don't see anything about forfieting freedom for the greater good, but then freedom isn't really an issue in the abortion debate. Folks like topgun will try and equate pregnancy to a loss of freedom but the claims don't stand up to examination and are in reality, just an appeal to emotion.
 
Gen,

Yes I did confuse the various places where the righ to life is enumerated.

I don't think it makes any difference.

The right to life will still trump the right to privacy regardless of the state of dependence.
 
Gen,

Yes I did confuse the various places where the righ to life is enumerated.

I don't think it makes any difference.

The right to life will still trump the right to privacy regardless of the state of dependence.

That is true and the roe court freely admitted it. They stated that should legal precedent come into existence that answers the question of the personhood of the unborn that roe must be struck down as unconstitional because the right of the unborn to live would be specifically protected by the 14th amendment.
 
Take your own argument for example. Do you really believe that in a court of law, the child's consumption of calories could be shown to be just cause for the forfieture of its life?
Its comments like this that cause me to think you still don't understand what I'm asking. If the consumption of calories, against the will of the person providing them, is acceptable for those in the womb, why then is it not acceptable for those outside the womb?

If the right to life extends to a right to such things as food, which is necessary to keep you alive, then our right to life is a right to food and indeed other necessities of life, which others must provide to fulfill our right to life lest they be guilty of causing our death.

Of what value is your right to live if you don't have an absolute right to property?

This is the problem with an unborn child: If he is to live, then the necessities must be provided to him rather than leaving him free to pursue them for himself.... And if the provider fails to provide, then you are ready to charge the provider with murder for denying the child his right to life.

You never had an absolute right to property in the first place.

You added the word "absolute", I made no such claim. Is our right to life absolute or is it just as conditional as our other rights?

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Now I have a few questions. I'm not arguing against your position so please don't misconstrue my questions as combative. Dr. Who and/or Pale, you are both welcome to answer the questions.

Its the future. The courts now recognize the rights of unborn children:

Will miscarriages be investigates as possible homicides?

Will women who smoke, drink and/or use drugs during pregnancy be charged with a crime?

If the stats are accurate, we will see roughly 1 million children every year abandoned by women who would have otherwise had abortions.

Where will they go to live?

What percentage of children do you expect will be adopted?

Who will care for those not adopted?

Considering all things involved with the recognition of rights for the unborn... How much will all these new fiscal responsibilities add to government spending?
 
Its comments like this that cause me to think you still don't understand what I'm asking. If the consumption of calories, against the will of the person providing them, is acceptable for those in the womb, why then is it not acceptable for those outside the womb?

For precisely the same reason we make orphans who have not reached the age of majority wards of the state, but not adults.

If the right to life extends to a right to such things as food, which is necessary to keep you alive, then our right to life is a right to food and indeed other necessities of life, which others must provide to fulfill our right to life lest they be guilty of causing our death.

You seem to be trying to push me into joining you in support of tossing unwanted, or unperfect children off the cliff as was the practice in troy. Personally, I don't believe you can find anything in the constitution or the founder's writings that supports such a thing. You seem to be assuming that the state mandating that children be provided certain necessities automatically means that the state must mandate providing necessities to adults.


This is the problem with an unborn child: If he is to live, then the necessities must be provided to him rather than leaving him free to pursue them for himself.... And if the provider fails to provide, then you are ready to charge the provider with murder for denying the child his right to life.

First, parents are legally responsible to provide for their children and make no mistake, when fertilization is complete, mom and dad are parents. If parents can not provide for the child, then it becomes a ward of the state..

What are the present laws with regard to a child who dies from the willful neglect of its parents?

You added the word "absolute", I made no such claim. Is our right to life absolute or is it just as conditional as our other rights?

So long as you are not guilty of a capital crime or are an imminent threat to someone else's life, I find no provision in the constititon to deny you that right so it would seem that only the individual's own actions can result in the loss of that right.

Its the future. The courts now recognize the rights of unborn children:

First, the courts recognize them today. You can be charged for murder if you kill an unborn, even if you had no idea the woman was pregnant. I have been waiting for some time for a pro choicer to explain how the child can be a constititonally protected person if you or I even kill it individually but an unprotected non human if a woman hires a doctor to kill it.

Will miscarriages be investigates as possible homicides?

Are natural deaths presently investigated as possible homicides?

Will women who smoke, drink and/or use drugs during pregnancy be charged with a crime?

Women are already subject to abuse charges if their child is born dependent on drugs or alcohol.

If the stats are accurate, we will see roughly 1 million children every year abandoned by women who would have otherwise had abortions.

A lot of assumptions there. First is the assumption that if abortion on demand isn't an option that women who might rely on that fact today will not alter thier behavior/birth control method. Secondly, the fact is that most women who intend to give up a child for adoption in the early days of their pregnancy can't do it when the time comes. I have seen no evidence at all to support the pro choice side's claims of floods of unwanted children and even if it happened, is killing them a rational solution?

Where will they go to live?

Where do wards of the state presently live.

What percentage of children do you expect will be adopted?

The wating lists for adoption of infants is years long in every state, and does it matter. Is killing a child because there is no adotive parent waiting a rational or constititonal action?

Who will care for those not adopted?

Who presently cares for them? And again, is killing them to eliminate the problem a rational or constititonal action?

Considering all things involved with the recognition of rights for the unborn... How much will all these new fiscal responsibilities add to government spending?

You are suggesting that we kill human beings to save a dollar?
 
As I said earlier, in one form or the other, total banning of abortion leads to a punitive form of socialism so strong that not even I have advocated it.

Take a look at the piles of corpses laid at the feet of socialism. You can find them in the old soviet union, china, cambodia, etc., as well as 40 million or so and counting in this country alone because of the unilataral denial of even the most basic human rights to an entire class and you already advocate it.

Socialism is the denial of human rights from whomever it is most expedient to deny them from.
 
Take a look at the piles of corpses laid at the feet of socialism. You can find them in the old soviet union, china, cambodia, etc., as well as 40 million or so and counting in this country alone because of the unilataral denial of even the most basic human rights to an entire class and you already advocate it.

Socialism is the denial of human rights from whomever it is most expedient to deny them from.

Your discussion with GenSeneca puts the lie on your assertion.

Appeals to emotion are not impressive evidence of the truth of your assertions, either, BTW.

Socialism is not Communism. You play rather loosely with facts.
 
Your discussion with GenSeneca puts the lie on your assertion.

Feel free to elaborate. Simply saying so doesn't make it so.

Appeals to emotion are not impressive evidence of the truth of your assertions, either, BTW. {/quote]

I don't appeal to emotion.

Socialism is not Communism. You play rather loosely with facts.

You believe that the soviet union, china, cambodia, or viet nam were communist? Think again. Communisim entails the joint ownership of the means of production and the end product by the people while socialism entails the ownership of the means of production by the government. Take a look at china, cambodia, the soviet union or vietnam and tell me which one you believe that the average citizen held equal ownership of the means of production and the final product.
 
As I said earlier, in one form or the other, total banning of abortion leads to a punitive form of socialism so strong that not even I have advocated it.

That sounds MORE like authoritarianism than socialism.

And it is the right role of government to outlaw the violation of rights with authority. As long as it stays within its constitutional boundaries it will not be authoritarianism to outlaw all killing of all living human beings.
 
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What are the present laws with regard to a child who dies from the willful neglect of its parents?
Wait a second... You said "Parents", plural, as in both the mother and father have an obligation to provide for the unborn during pregnancy? You've never before mentioned the fathers obligation to provide for the unborn during pregnancy, so please elaborate on his role and the legal consequences that would result from his failure.

You seem to be trying to push me into joining you in support of tossing unwanted, or unperfect children off the cliff as was the practice in troy.
That is untrue but so is most of what you have claimed about me, my statements, and my position in this thread.

I abhor the practice of abortion and have stated that much repeatedly.

You seem to be pushing everyone into adopting your "solution" but you're not willing to discuss, or even acknowledge, the foreseeable consequences of that decision.

I'm not arguing against your position so please don't misconstrue my questions as combative. - Me

Hopefully Dr. Who is willing to address my questions and offer some answers. How about it Dr. Who... Are willing to look at the results of Pale's solution or do you agree with him that we should just shoot first and ask questions later?
 
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